For the Hardcore Atheists

[Roshina]

Qrratugai, How isn't it an Islamic state? Are you judging the state based on it's people or laws? They have Islamic Shariah.

I don't understand your question, guley. Are you suggesting that Saudi Arabia actually IS an Islamic state? Because that's not true -- in which case, are you asking me to give you reasons for why Saudi Arabia is not an Islamic state (referring mostly to its national laws, its government, etc.)? The Muslims of KSA are pretty much as normal as Muslims elsewhere; it's how they implement/enforce their laws, particularly against women. Human rights is a maaaaaaaaaajor issue there, and it's like one of the top ten (if not top 5) nations on earth with the most brutal ways of treating humans.

And, no, I'm not getting this from the media. I thought everyone knew by now that Saudi Arabia is actually not as Islamic as it claims.

[karachipashtun]

I don't understand your question, guley. Are you suggesting that Saudi Arabia actually IS an Islamic state? Because that's not true -- in which case, are you asking me to give you reasons for why Saudi Arabia is not an Islamic

Ofcourse it is. They might not be practicing but they are considered an Islamic state. You are wrong.

[Roshina]

Ofcourse it is. They might not be practicing but they are considered an Islamic state. You are wrong.

They're considered an Islamic state? By whom? And just because they're considered an Islam doesn't necessarily make them an Islamic state.

I'm not talking about how things are supposed to be; I'm talking about the reality of things, how Islam is actually practiced there. So if they are not practicing it, it means it's not an Islamic state. Simple.

Qrratugai, what makes you say they are not an Islamic state? Because they dont follow it? Its there implemented though.

What? Aren't these two statements of yours contradicting each other? They "don't follow it" but it's "implemented"?

When I have time, I'll give you accounts of some of the most un-Islamic things carried out by Saudi Arabia, to prove that Saudi Arabia is not an Islamic state at all. Just because it claims to be and just because Mecca and Madina are located there doesn't at all make it an "Islamic" state. It's just as "Islamic" as all other so-called "Islamic" countries on earth.

[Dukhtar-e-Kabul]

Qrratugai, They have the system there.

Just like how you dont judge a religion by whom is following. You dont judge a country by its certain citizens. They have Islamic Shariah. You steal there, your hand gets cut.

Take it or leave it.

[Roshina]

^ Being "considered" an Islamic state is not the same as "being" an Islamic state. Look into the difference when you have some time, Shlombay Jaana.

They have Islamic Shariah. You steal there, your hand gets cut

Is that all there is to Islamic law?

Are their rape laws the same as what Islam says? (Penalty for rape, I mean, of course.)

What happens to people who commit adultery and fornication in Saudi Arabia? (I'm talking about both men AND women, not just women.)
What happens to women who decide to drive? (They get imprisoned for at least a year and their passports are taken so they don't leave the country.)

How is the zakat system implemented there?

What are the rights of minorities in Saudi Arabi? Saudi has absolutely NO respect for human rights, even the human rights supported by Islam. (And, no, I'm not getting this from the "media," as may be assumed.)
How long did it take Saudi Arabia to give women the right to vote when Islam gave them the right over 1400 years ago, as we're told?

How Islamic is "monarchy," when the kingship/rule goes from father to son and the citizens don't get a say in who rules them? Whatever happened to consulting others implementing "God's" laws? Who decides how these laws -- and even WHICH laws -- must be implemented?

What does the country do to people who speak up against the king, or express dissent with the government's laws? They're imprisoned and tortured beyond belief. Absolutely NO criticism of its policies is permitted in Saudi Arabia. Where does Islam say you can't express disagreement with the king or the country, especially when it's extremely unjust to you and to others who are not as powerful or rich as the royalty and its friends?

According to most Muslim scholars, riba (sudd, interest) is haraam in Islam. Yet, it is allowed in Saudi Arabia. Strangely and hypocritically, Saudi doesn't allow women to drive, claiming it's un-Islamic AND it "cuts off the hands of thieves" because they say Islam tells them to, but they practice riba. How do they pick and choose which of Islamic laws to practice and which ones not to? That's hypocrisy.

And the Saudi royal family (their men) are recognized for the most un-Islamic behavior and actions possible, including fornication/adultery, forcing their women into marriages, drinking, exploiting women, etc., etc. Yet, none of the punishments that they claim are "Islamic" ever apply to the royal family. Where does Islam say you get to pick and choose whom to punish when they break Islamic laws and whom to pardon?

etc., etc.

And, btw, according to Islam, you can't cut just ANY thief's hands off; if they're poor and the state doesn't help them, and they resort to stealing, the state has no right to cut their hands off. That's not Islamic at all. But what does Saudi Arabia do?

Come on - you have GOT to be kidding me that Saudi Arabia is actually an "Islamic" state.

Laws are ALWAYS there, in EVERY country, including Afghanistan, Pakistan, and Canada. In Pakistan, for instance, forced marriages are not allowed by the government and any man who wants to have another wife must seek the state's permission (which will include his wife's state). But who follows this? No one. We know forced marriages still happen there.

Similarly, Saudi Arabia has laws - but by no means do they apply to ALL of its citizens, including the royalty and other wealthy families there. It's always the poor who suffer, while the rich are the luckiest ones. The Constitution of Saudi Arabi is just as great as "Islamic" as most other Muslim country's (I've read Saudi's and some others), but I'm not concerned with whether law is there: I'm concerned more with how it is enforced and who follows it -- if at all.

I plan to compile a list of un-Islamic things in Saudi Arabia (laws/crimes, punishments, etc.) and will share it here in due time so you see that Saudi Arabia is NOT an Islamic state just because it's a Muslim state.

There's a difference between being Muslim and being Islamic.

[akbarkhan]

Saudi Arabia applies the Shariah selectively, hence it is not an ideal Islamic state.

[Roshina]

Saudi Arabia applies the Shariah selectively, hence it is not an ideal Islamic state.

Exactly one of my points! As long as the law is applied selectively, it cannot be Islamic.

[akbarkhan]

As long as the law is applied selectively, it cannot be Islamic.

That is incorrect.

The first bylaw of the Saudi Arabian charter states that Quran and the Sunnah makes the constitution of the country hence it is an Islamic country from both Islamic and international relations perspectives.

One becomes a Muslim the moment one takes the Shahadah, the fact that (s)he still smokes, backbites or gambles does not make them a non-Muslim. If the Saudi government does not fully implement the Shariah, it does not mean that it is not an Islamic state, it just proves that they are corrupt and are not pious enough.

[Roshina]

Two questions for you, AkbarKhan wrora.

1. What is the difference between the following two statements (the first one yours the second one mine):

Saudi Arabia applies the Shariah selectively, hence it is not an ideal Islamic state.

As long as the law is applied selectively, it cannot be Islamic.

2. What is the relationship between the following two posts (the first one mine, the second one yours):

As long as the law is applied selectively, it cannot be Islamic.

That is incorrect.

The first bylaw of the Saudi Arabian charter states that Quran and the Sunnah makes the constitution of the country hence it is an Islamic country from both Islamic and international relations perspectives.

One becomes a Muslim the moment one takes the Shahadah, the fact that (s)he still smokes, backbites or gambles does not make them a non-Muslim. If the Saudi government does not fully implement the Shariah, it does not mean that it is not an Islamic state, it just proves that they are corrupt and are not pious enough.

As far as whether it's Islamic or not, please refer to post # 62, and answer the questions I've asked there regarding the Islamicness of the Saudi Arabian state.

Manana for your attempts in recognizing it as an Islamic state. It just is not as long as it remains the way it is.

[Roshina]

look up what Islamic means Qrratugai.

Hm... why don't you tell me what "Islamic" means, Shlombay? You seem to know very well.

Read his post carefully. he said "Ideal" he did not say they are not Islamic.

Ideal Islamic states do not exist and never will. According to Samima Jaan's and Akbar Khan's posts as well as the posts of others who deem Saudi Arabia to be an Islamic state, even Paksitan is an Islamic State -- yet, all anti-Pakistan members here will completely disagree with that.

An Islamic state will have to be Islamic in its system, in basically everything from its social to political to economic to you-name-it laws. Not only will it be theoretically Islamic (by name) but also practically (by practicing it, executing those laws equally with no nepotism involved), and so on. Be honest to yourself: Is ANY Muslim country today, INCLUDING Saudi Arabia, like this at all? No.

One completely out-of-the-zone question -- for you, Shlombay Jaan. Would you ever be willing to live in an Islamic state? ... If so, would you be willing to move from the U.S. to Saudi Arabia? If it's an Islamic state, it must mean it's as best as it can get, right? Since anything Islamic would be by default as great as it can get. (You don't have to answer it out loud; just ask yourself.) Sure, sure, not ideal - but Islamic nonetheless, right? What does "ideal" mean and what does "Islamic" mean? If they mean two different things, then you're trying to say the thing I've been saying all along -- that Saudi Arabia is not an Islamic state.

[akbarkhan]

Two questions for you, AkbarKhan wrora.

1. What is the difference between the following two statements (the first one yours the second one mine):

Your statement is dicto simpliciter, mine isn't.

2. What is the relationship between the following two posts (the first one mine, the second one yours)

Yet another fallacy.

A man who has taken the Shahadah and who is cherry picking Islamic laws is still a Muslim, but not an ideal Muslim. Apply the same thing to states.

[amna.]

Your statement is a dicto simpliciter, mine isn't.



Yet another fallacy.

A man who has taken the Shahadah and who is cherry picking Islamic laws is still a Muslim, but not an ideal Muslim. Apply the same thing to states.

You took the words right from my mouth.