Don't do the PhD without the MD

[BarakzaiAbdali]

The Atlantic addressed this recent data trend based off NSA data regarding where the STEM field PhDs are going:

Here is part 1:
http://www.theatlantic.com/business/...charts/273339/

Here is part 2:

http://www.theatlantic.com/business/...ntists/273377/

The gist of the article is the STEM surplus that exists already and the trends are worrisome.

The author does well by indicating the lack of control and the pure susceptability to capitalism that the STEM fields are subject to:

"Unfortunately, I left a big question unanswered. Many of today's science Ph.D.'s aren't Americans. In 2011, 51.9 percent of engineering doctorates, 26.2 percent of life sciences doctorates, and 39.6 percent of physical sciences doctorates were awarded to foreign students living in the United States on temporary visas. Thanks to their immigration status, these graduates face obstacles that an aerospace engineer born in Iowa might not."

This lack of protectionism is not something we see in the medical field.

Regarding the Engineers and how they are faring:

"So let's start with the engineers, who include material sciences, aerospace, chemical, electrical and other sub-fields. As you can see on the left, 43.7 percent of the Americans+ category reported having a job offer, far better than temporary immigrants. But look to the right, and you'll see that more than a quarter either had no job offer, postdoctoral study appointment, or other firm post-graduation plans (a small sliver might be headed to yet another graduate education program, though the NSF isn't clear precisely how many). "

Then he addressed Comp Sci, which fares a little better but not by that much and he concedes the 2/3 hunting figure:

"For physical sciences grads -- including computer scientists, mathematicians, physicists, and chemists, among others -- members of the Americans+ club were more likely to have landed a job. Nonetheless, two-thirds were either still hunting, or stuck in a post-doc appointment, which often turns into a years-long ordeal as a lowly-paid research assistant. "

Couple this to Barkawi's recent glum assessments on American Academia and the coming crises:

http://www.aljazeera.com/indepth/opi...284530760.html

"Much of the coverage has focused on the sub-poverty wages of adjunct faculty, their lack of job security and the growing legions of unemployed and under-employed PhDs. Elsewhere, the focus has been on web-based learning and the massive open online courses (MOOCs), with some commentators celebrating and others lamenting their arrival.
The two developments are not unrelated. Harvard recently asked its alumni to volunteer their time as "online mentors" and "discussion group managers" for an online course. Fewer professors and fewer qualified - or even paid - teaching assistants will be required in higher education's New Order.
Lost amid the fetishisation of information technology and the pathos of the struggle over proper working conditions for adjunct faculty is the deeper crisis of the academic profession occasioned by neoliberalism. This crisis is connected to the economics of higher education but it is not primarily about that.
The neoliberal sacking of the universities runs much deeper than tuition fee hikes and budget cuts."

http://www.aljazeera.com/indepth/opi...284530760.html


Conclusions:
What this boils down to is that the immigrant communities have been doing exactly the right thing in urging their children to enter into the medical field en masse because A) the protectionism gaurantees that these trends above dont touch clinicians and B) there are a plethora of opportunities that await folks on the other end.

What young Afghans should continue to do is to deluge the medical field or other professional degree fields since their population is still small enough to make their entrance an easier task.

Toramana, keep your atheist ikhwani commentary to yourself and please do not pollute this thread with your typical angry meanderings.

[Admin Khan]

It's hard for me to agree, and I'll tell you why. Just about every Tom, **** and Harry I know, is premed, and nowadays the rise of premed's is on the rise. Let's analyze New York, which is home to an overwhelming chunk of college students. From the CUNY system, to the SUNY system, just about every immigrant wishes to be an M.D, and given the financial burden associated with it, the chances of getting in, is almost dare I say, convincingly against you - considering how much the odds are against you.

Let's now compare it with Engineering. Most students are scared of Engineering because:

A)It's tough, far tougher than pre-med.
B)It requires more hourly work, and studying(as per the recent US study report, an Engineering student studies far more than any major).

From my person analysis, and pseudo-survey, people are just scared of Engineering, in particular Computer Science, because of the challenge associated with it, but they fail to realize that a degree like Computer Science, aside from being the #1 degree in the USA, and aside from Software Engineers having a far, far, better work-balance, happiness, satisfaction compared to Physicians, is the best option and best bet.

However, I can understand why going another route makes sense[despite disagreeing with it]. You can literally just never graduate in a field like Engineering, if you don't get it. There has been days, that I have spent 5 days, 15 hours per day, the only breaks I've taken are prayer breaks, and I then realize that I was better off where I was before, since my project algorithm was wrong.

A Computer Scientist, comfortably, with a 4 year degree from a top 30 school, makes 80K-110K[with Stanford,MIT, CalTech breaking the 6 figure mark with a B.S/B.E in CS]. Now you tell me BA, do you really think it makes sense to go to school for 12 years, have $1million debt? Think about it, 4 undergrad, 3-4 year med, another 4 years of running around with your residency or specialty, and then you end up starting off with a job with a far lower pay rate, and you are in debt for nearly $1 million dollars.

What do you think of my analysis? Would you not feel guilty recommending an immigrant to be premed?

[BarakzaiAbdali]

It's hard for me to agree, and I'll tell you why. Just about every Tom, **** and Harry I know, is premed, and nowadays the rise of premed's is on the rise. Let's analyze New York, which is home to an overwhelming chunk of college student. From the CUNY system, to the SUNY system, just about every immigrant wishes to be an M.D, and given the financial burden associated with it, the chances of 'not' getting in, it's almost(unless it is your passion), dare I say, a silly mistake to be pre-med, considering how much the odds are against you.

Let's now compare it with Engineering. Most students are scared of Engineering because:

A)It's tough, far tougher than pre-med.
B)It requires more hourly work, and studying(as per the recent US study report, an Engineering student studies far more than any major).

From my person analysis, and pseudo-survey, people are just scared of Engineering, in particular Computer Science, because of the challenge associated with it, but they fail to realize that a degree like Computer Science, aside from being the #1 degree in the USA, and aside from Software Engineers having a far, far, better work-balance, happiness, satisfaction compared to Physicians, is the best option and best bet.

However, I can understand why going another route makes sense[despite disagreeing with it]. You can literally just never graduate in a field like Engineering, if you don't get it. There has been days, that I have spent 5 days, 15 hours per day, the only breaks I've taken are prayer breaks, and I then realize that I was better off where I was before, since my project algorithm was wrong.

A Computer Scientist, comfortably, with a 4 year degree from a top 30 school, makes 80K-110K[with Stanford,MIT, CalTech breaking the 6 figure mark with a B.S/B.E in CS]. Now you tell me BA, do you really think it makes sense to go to school for 12 years, have $1million debt? Think about it, 4 undergrad, 3-4 year med, another 4 years of running around with your residency or specialty, and then you end up starting off with a job with a far lower pay rate, and you are in debt for nearly $1 million dollars.

What do you think of my analysis? Would you not feel guilty recommending an immigrant to be premed?

Its a fair question... but what do you think about the figures and the stats?

Also, what about this context:

Student X chooses just about any major and he has to pay a tuition of sorts... a PhD can be 4 to 6 years beyond that unless one stops at a masters in the the STEM fields. Now he gets out and he still may have some loan burden on his head (remember that a large number of our parents may have been professionals in the Zahir Shah era but that success there did not necessarily translate to success here as many Kabul University Engineers ended up having to try their hand at small business instead of practicing their beloved field hence the economic challenges). So he goes to PhD schooling and that loan (even at the state school level) accumulates and the interest rates are even higher these days... basically while he or she is interning he or she is still paying into the loan system and pretty much just trying to keep up with the interest. The Educational deferments dont stop some of the interest from accruing unless they are a particular type of stafford loan in which Uncle Sam pays the interest.

Student Y is also from a lower middle class household and has a bio degree from the same institute and decided to go state med school so he adds onto the base amount of his loan but in four years he graduates and as a resident makes about $60,000 with moonlighting addendums in tow and pays toward his loan.

So in the current context that many young Afghans face with economic uncertainties, I'm not sure of the loan debt argument is enough to dissuade me from advocating medicine.

You have think about it in the context that not everyone is as smart as Admin Khan with a near full ride scholarship and then followup education to a world class engineering institute - on the bell curve of life you are the outlier my friend - not the average.

What would you say to the average - or if you have cousins who aren't in the same academic boat (lets face it we all have them)... what would you say to your own after breaking down the analysis?

One Uzbek Afghan and I were talking about this, he's a Computer Engineer from Purdue (as you know a world class institute as well with great afghan relations). He told me he did the full breakdown and came to the conclusion that he would begin earning sooner, but the amount of earning would end up being far less (he works with a firm that allows him to transit from New Haven to New York). He said the strengths of his choice were that he remains versatile and has to be very on top of budgetary management, but his job situation is day to day despite his obvious practical skills set. And he's still got the loan debt from Purdue to deal with... so that means that he is basically racing his interest accrument on the loan while having to maintain costs of living (he just had a young baby and got married).

[Talal]

PhD is overkill just having undergrad you'll get through life on a mild note..A master's degree really puts you on a decent course to get atleast somewhere in life..granted you wont be winning nobel prizes but put a bit of initiative after masters and you are probably looking at an executive position somewhere down the road..again depends on your personal inclinations

[Admin Khan]

Its a fair question... but what do you think about the figures and the stats?

Also, what about this context:

Student X chooses just about any major and he has to pay a tuition of sorts... a PhD can be 4 to 6 years beyond that unless one stops at a masters in the the STEM fields. Now he gets out and he still may have some loan burden on his head (remember that a large number of our parents may have been professionals in the Zahir Shah era but that success there did not necessarily translate to success here as many Kabul University Engineers ended up having to try their hand at small business instead of practicing their beloved field hence the economic challenges). So he goes to PhD schooling and that loan (even at the state school level) accumulates and the interest rates are even higher these days... basically while he or she is interning he or she is still paying into the loan system and pretty much just trying to keep up with the interest. The Educational deferments dont stop some of the interest from accruing unless they are a particular type of stafford loan in which Uncle Sam pays the interest.

Student Y is also from a lower middle class household and has a bio degree from the same institute and decided to go state med school so he adds onto the base amount of his loan but in four years he graduates and as a resident makes about $60,000 with moonlighting addendums in tow and pays toward his loan.

So in the current context that many young Afghans face with economic uncertainties, I'm not sure of the loan debt argument is enough to dissuade me from advocating medicine.

You have think about it in the context that not everyone is as smart as Admin Khan with a near full ride scholarship and then followup education to a world class engineering institute - on the bell curve of life you are the outlier my friend - not the average.

What would you say to the average - or if you have cousins who aren't in the same academic boat (lets face it we all have them)... what would you say to your own after breaking down the analysis?

One Uzbek Afghan and I were talking about this, he's a Computer Engineer from Purdue (as you know a world class institute as well with great afghan relations). He told me he did the full breakdown and came to the conclusion that he would begin earning sooner, but the amount of earning would end up being far less (he works with a firm that allows him to transit from New Haven to New York). He said the strengths of his choice were that he remains versatile and has to be very on top of budgetary management, but his job situation is day to day despite his obvious practical skills set. And he's still got the loan debt from Purdue to deal with... so that means that he is basically racing his interest accrument on the loan while having to maintain costs of living (he just had a young baby and got married).

I think there are several abstractions here, and we must emphasize on the fact that:
A)You are paid to do your Ph.D, you have a tuition waiver, and generally receive a stipend that amounts to ~40K per year[+RAships, etc].

B)Ph.D's, whether in academia, or Google research, Microsoft research, work far less hours than M.D's, and for the most part breaking the 150-200K mark is relatively easy, provided that you graduated from a top 25 American Engineering school.


A Ph.D, in Engineering, is far tougher in my opinion than an M.D. I don't even think there is a comparison here. While one needs to simply pass exams and courses in a M.D, in a Ph.D you first have to go through a gruelling set of exams colloquially known as the 'quals'. Stanford for example, has the toughest exams on planet earth for their quals. Even the top 1 percent of students on earth flunk out of Stanford, MIT, CMU, because of the 'quals'. Once you have the guts to pass the quals, you generally have G3 status, and now you need to come up with something new. This can be a cumbersome process, that can be done in 4 years, or sometimes a decade before you throw in the towel. In Math for example, some research groups expect you to contribute by discovering a new formula. That's not easy, even if it is 4 years. With all that being said, if done in 4 years, unlike an M.D, you are not paying for it, you are getting paid for it. BarakzaiAbdali, you are an outlier. You attended a world-class institution, and so getting into medical school for you, was like a joke. For the average Joe, allow me to elaborate on the algorithm:

Freshman year he decides to do pre-med, he works his butt of, gets good grades, junior year, gets a C, or two C's[he is human after all]. And guess what? No more medical school. The student knowing how his chances are now bleak, decides to kill himself. This happens all the time in SUNY schools Dr.BA. Just last month a Bengali decided to jump of the Chemistry building at Stony Brook University. It was in the local newspapers, he was pre-med, graduated with a decent GPA, all his med schools turned him down, but since he had majored in Biochemistry, and couldn't find a job, he couldn't handle the pressure anymore, may Allah forgive him. Look at national statistics in schools who have strong pre-med programs, they have some of the highest suicide rates in the world. Now lets be absolutely honest here, the chances of getting into medical school are pretty low for the average person. Why take this gigantic risk? As matter of fact, it's just a silly decision when you have degrees like Computer Science and Electrical Engineering. A Computer Scientist goes to school for 4 years, and starts making 6 figures onwards. There are companies like 2Sigma, Five Rings, that pay Computer Science students $180K out of college, with just an undergrad in Computer Science, to do high-frequency trading.

Let's try to analyze the situation:

Major in some mickey-mouse field + Pre-med
Be in school for 4 years undergrad, 4 year med, 4-8 years of specializing. So 12/16 years of school work, about $1-1.2 million dollar debt by the time you are done, and then they begin to make 6 figures? Do you, Dr.Abdali, think this is worth it for the average guy? You see things in your own scope, and perhaps you think the remaining folks are just as smart as you, but that's not true. I would also like to assert that you were so intelligent, that you decided to major in EE, just in case your medical school route doesn't work, and you have something to fall back on, not many people can do that Dr.Sahab, think about it. Families will be sink into debt if their child decides to medical school. The aforementioned is a harsh reality. Going to medical school just makes 0 sense for someone who is not rich, unless it is their absolute passion, in which case I encourage them. However, if med school is a competing choice, go with Engineering.

Now Engineering:
Attend a quality top 50 Engineering program, major in Computer Science, Computer Engineering, Electrical, yada,yada, in general a program that is housed in the Engineering school, attend school for 4 years, do some internships, and you will comfortably have a progressive job where you will be making $100-200K by the time the doctor sahab graduates, with a 500K-$1million already in the bank. Not to mention, by the time he graduates, you probably own companies and multiple startups, while he is busy trying to figure out whose loan to pay off first. Earlier you mentioned this applies strictly to the top schools. I disagree, I know folks at Stony Brook, who have graduated with Computer Science degrees, and they now work for Google, Microsoft, Amazon, making more than what a 1st year medical student can dream of. I have also seen medical students regret their decisions, to an extent where I feel like 'educating' the public about the cons associated with going pre-med. I know countless people BA, who have destroyed the lives of their families and themselves for choosing to do pre-med, and then not being able to attend med school. I know someone who works at Rite-Aid now, and he used to be pre-med + honors Chemistry at Binghamton University. On the contrary I know someone from UT-Austin, majored in Computer Science, and he makes comfortable money. Then we have our innovative brothers, like the ones at MIT, Harvard, Stanford, and the gang, who decide to create DropBox, or the next big thing, and they end up making more than the the first 200 of your colleagues combined in a short month or two. Think about the aforementioned carefully, and recognize the vast sense of opportunities. Even if someone really likes medicine, companies like Epic, KyRus, make a living by developing Software for Medicine. In case you think this is just my opinion, I disagree. Computer Science is the #1 degree in the USA right now, just about every Tom, ****, and Harry, along with official BLS surveys rank it #1. It is also no surprise that Software Engineering has the highest job growth, at least for the next 30 years, and the best paid and most happiest employees. A Professor at MIT recently came up with 'wireless electricity', check it out here.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j4sAzaKfbRc

Don't be surprised if Computer Scientists soon, thanks to universities like Carnegie Mellon for spearheading the global process, come up with Robotic Surgeries, where if before we needed 10 surgeons present, now having 2 present might be an overkill. People once thought they would never get rid of the local person who used to sell them 'train' tickets, now we have Computer Scientists that came up with Kiosks. You might think we might never get rid of Doctors, I argue that in the next 50 years, we won't need as many Doctors in the USA, with the rise of Robotics program. I suggest you to take a look at what CMU is doing. CMU is global heavy weight universities[Think CMU, MIT, UCB, UT-Austin, etc] in Computer Science & Robotics, and the plans they have for Robotics, along with the team of scientists they have, is simply astounding and amazing. I'm sure you know that CMU and MIT talk the talk, and walk the walk when it comes to innovation and delivering, one of the goals is to identify diseases more easily, robotically, along with other innovative ideas. Remember, the aforementioned might sound 'crazy' but there was once a time where the internet appeared 'impossible'.

http://www.asbestos.com/news/2013/04/18/arizona-surgeon-believes-robotics-will-change-future-of-mesothelioma-treatment/

Major caveat:
I want to emphasize on this, even though I know BA knows this, I would NEVER discourage someone for doing an M.D if it is his/her passion. I just feel like if you think you will make more money, or live a better life than an Engineer, then it's arguably a pretty dumb choice[as per a ton of surveys and statistics, Software Engineers live far better, and more comfortable lives than Doctors, there isn't even a comparison].

[Al Hanif]

Stanford for example, has the toughest exams on planet earth for their quals. Even the top 1 percent of students on earth flunk out of Stanford, MIT, CMU, because of the 'quals'.

I always imagined that Harvard was harder.

But after checking online old quals, looks like Stanford is indeed harder (at least in Mathematics).

By harder, I mean less intermediaries questions.

Anyways, with all that fluoride in their water, they'll need lower-level requirements.

[Admin Khan]

I always imagined that Harvard was harder.

But after checking online old quals, looks like Stanford is indeed harder (at least in Mathematics).

By harder, I mean less intermediaries questions.

Anyways, with all that fluoride in their water, they'll need lower-level requirements.

Harvard, like MIT, has the hardest Math program on earth. I know at Harvard they have something called Math 55. Google it, it's the toughest Math course on earth, where they cover 4 years of Math in a semester or two.

[Admin Khan]

Al Hanif,
Math 55 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Not to mention, most Ph.D programs in Engineering, have a strict requirement of the fact that you MUST get an A- or better in every class. Trust me, that is not easy.

[Al Hanif]

I looked it up online.. that 55 Math course and... oh America you so crazy...

Admin, do you have any stats about the people who go to the top 10% schools in the US ?

Their background, their social status, their race, their gender...

Also i am interested in these powerful secret societies in Harvard and other universities...

Can you tell me more about them ?

Is it a requirement to be part of secret societies ?

Does it make your career easier ?

[Kushan Prince]

Harvard, like MIT, has the hardest Math program on earth. I know at Harvard they have something called Math 55. Google it, it's the toughest Math course on earth, where they cover 4 years of Math in a semester or two.

Isn't math55 used for figuring out proofs?

[BarakzaiAbdali]

I think there are several abstractions here, and we must emphasize on the fact that:
A)You are paid to do your Ph.D, you have a tuition waiver, and generally receive a stipend that amounts to ~40K per year[+RAships, etc].

I dont know, these stipend levels, especially for the married couple (and if we are talking traditional Afghan where the male works and the female cares for the youngins there is going to be one salary) seem to indicate folks just scraping by when compared to basic cost of living:

http://gsc.mit.edu/programs-initiatives/col/

Now the lucky thing for the MDs that enter residency is that the NIH and the US government mandates a certain base rate (i.e. there cannot be any monkey business with their pay rates). So a PGY1 (post grad year 1) resident in UCLA and the resident at Hopkins across the country and the Ohio State resident will generally start off with a comfortable 46 to 50,000 based on experience.

This data base indicates a wide degree of divergence between various institutes... for instance compare the stipends at Reneassler and the support they give their engineering grads to MIT and I am not sure how those kids cope:

http://chronicle.com/stats/stipends/

B)Ph.D's, whether in academia, or Google research, Microsoft research, work far less hours than M.D's, and for the most part breaking the 150-200K mark is relatively easy, provided that you graduated from a top 25 American Engineering school.

Yes, but thats the caveat right? And its a really important one for the son or daughter of a lower or middle class parent who may require that sibling to pitch in one day. We Afghans are a very sacrificing nation and by the grace of God very giving... the notion is generally that siblings will help eachother and their relatives if need be. I remember one Afghan girl who wanted to do law got into Cornell and it was a similar situation. I strongly advised her to be careful... despite it being a top 25 law school... there's a ton of monkey business that goes into being hired by a law firm. At the end of the day she ended up back in the mid west in her parents' basement and had to resort to animal defense law. Whereas, the bottom of the class graduate from say, Country University of Illinoise Medical out in Podunk is gauranteed a job right out of med school and then when he makes it through residency on average even in primary care or peds he will start out in the 100,000 range.

A Ph.D, in Engineering, is far tougher in my opinion than an M.D. I don't even think there is a comparison here. While one needs to simply pass exams and courses in a M.D, in a Ph.D you first have to go through a gruelling set of exams colloquially known as the 'quals'.

Oh dont get me wrong, I agree. I always felt that the smartest people I encountered where folks who were applied physicists or molecular biologists and engineers. The best engineers can envision concepts and rely on a practical understanding of the world. They are honest and hard working. Unfortunately, my point here is that, just as being a good person sometimes doesnt translate into status in this world... being the smartest person on paper doesnt seem to do so in the US economy either. One of my experiences at a major engineering firm back in my days cemented my drive to leave medicine. A Russian engineer who mentored me advised me against staying in engineering and pointed to the board room... he said "I am a horse with blinders who loves my own designs as if they were pieces of art... but those young MBAs in that boardroom determine the fate of my design work." We keep in touch and his sons are now in conversations with me about transitioning from engineering to medicine.

Stanford for example, has the toughest exams on planet earth for their quals. Even the top 1 percent of students on earth flunk out of Stanford, MIT, CMU, because of the 'quals'. Once you have the guts to pass the quals, you generally have G3 status, and now you need to come up with something new. This can be a cumbersome process, that can be done in 4 years, or sometimes a decade before you throw in the towel.

I agree, smartest folks without a doubt. But its sort of like Franklin Roosevelt.... you ever study his history? The guy was a straight C student.... and somehow he landed the Presidency. In my opinion he didnt even do a good job, but he still kept getting re-elected. I think in addition to smarts and passion, practicality has to dominate in life decisions.

At the end of the day, these really smart people can always be engineers in medicine. They can emulate surgeons like Michael Debakey who pioneered the artifical heart and Aortic grafts.

In Math for example, some research groups expect you to contribute by discovering a new formula. That's not easy, even if it is 4 years. With all that being said, if done in 4 years, unlike an M.D, you are not paying for it, you are getting paid for it. BarakzaiAbdali, you are an outlier. You attended a world-class institution, and so getting into medical school for you, was like a joke. For the average Joe, allow me to elaborate on the algorithm:

Freshman year he decides to do pre-med, he works his butt of, gets good grades, junior year, gets a C, or two C's[he is human after all]. And guess what? No more medical school.

Admin, I promise you I had a more than a few kids around who did exactly that. I think if the kid has a backup like engineering he's still gonna be really content in either field. There are soooo many applicants who got a C and explained it away. And those same kids went on to dominate med school because they got their mojo going. One indian I knew got 2 Cs in two engineering courses and applied to his state school. He spun it as a story of overcoming weakness and did some summer work in India with destitute folks (he actually really benefited from the latter because he was sort of an annoying frat boy type before and came back realizing the world was a bigger place) and went on to med school and went into the difficult to attain field of ENT.

And there are the DO pathways.

The student knowing how his chances are now bleak, decides to kill himself. This happens all the time in SUNY schools Dr.BA. Just last month a Bengali decided to jump of the Chemistry building at Stony Brook University.

Happened in my school too. We shouldnt place a human beings value on a degree. I have met some of the most "educated" people on the streets and some of these are my patients who could survive in anarchy while the rest of us would perish. I have met village elders who understood more about leadership than some of the CEOs of the greatest hospitals (folks who chased egos instead of shrewd decision making). I want it to be understood that God holds rizq and these discussions we have, you and I, are not to berate other folks in other fields of life... but rather to gain our people power, influence, and the ability to help eachother with this. When we see someone who runs into this emotional wall, we should pull them closer and help them find a way that works.

I had a guy at my school who jumped off the parking lot (he got into dentistry school and his vascular surgeon dad berated him).

It was in the local newspapers, he was pre-med, graduated with a decent GPA, all his med schools turned him down, but since he had majored in Biochemistry, and couldn't find a job, he couldn't handle the pressure anymore, may Allah forgive him. Look at national statistics in schools who have strong pre-med programs, they have some of the highest suicide rates in the world.

This sickness in our people is a strange one. Everyone gets judged. People cannot even get married. Good young men who are business owners and are honest to goodness go to a girl's house as a khastgar and they get treated like feces by people who themselves arent PhDs or MDs... and they play these games. Parents feel as if their young ones have shamed them. The Americans are better people than us in this way... I had a class mate from Alabama whose dad told him "Id love you even if you had to collect trash." That kid became a doctor because he wanted to... and for no other reason.

Now lets be absolutely honest here, the chances of getting into medical school are pretty low for the average person. Why take this gigantic risk? As matter of fact, it's just a silly decision when you have degrees like Computer Science and Electrical Engineering. A Computer Scientist goes to school for 4 years, and starts making 6 figures onwards. There are companies like 2Sigma, Five Rings, that pay Computer Science students $180K out of college, with just an undergrad in Computer Science, to do high-frequency trading.

Let's try to analyze the situation:

Major in some mickey-mouse field + Pre-med
Be in school for 4 years undergrad, 4 year med, 4-8 years of specializing. So 12/16 years of school work, about $1-1.2 million dollar debt by the time you are done, and then they begin to make 6 figures?

Average I am hearing these days is about $250,000 loan debt. If they arent American citizens, maybe more.

Do you, Dr.Abdali, think this is worth it for the average guy?

I think most of us are average guys... I'd just ask them to make sure that if they decide not to that they pretty much follow your footsteps because you are making it work. I'd say that you are a rarity and you should really make sure to mentor young Afghans so that each of those kids that ends up going the top 25 engineering PhD pathway is sure to land that 6 figure job. To be frank, Im not confident I could have been happy in the pure capitalistic world that dictates the future of engineers (it creates some of the best inventions no doubt). I want to be sure of where my job will be tomorrow and even 10 years from now. But some innovators thrive in that environment.

You see things in your own scope, and perhaps you think the remaining folks are just as smart as you, but that's not true. I would also like to assert that you were so intelligent, that you decided to major in EE, just in case your medical school route doesn't work, and you have something to fall back on, not many people can do that Dr.Sahab, think about it.

You're too kind, but I really think that we need to learn more from you in that we need a detailed thread like the medical thread so that folks know a flight plan to follow if they pursue your pathway. I am really impressed you made it work. It takes guts and risk taking and innovative spirit as I said. But we need detailed guidance on this. People here need to understand how to become an Admin Khan and to be that MIT engineer. I mean we hear in passing now and then about your 15 hour study days and the design problems etc, but we need more guidance for the youth than even that. We need to understand the pathway to MIT and the specifics of what to do.

Families will be sink into debt if their child decides to medical school. The aforementioned is a harsh reality. Going to medical school just makes 0 sense for someone who is not rich, unless it is their absolute passion, in which case I encourage them. However, if med school is a competing choice, go with Engineering.

Now Engineering:
Attend a quality top 50 Engineering program, major in Computer Science, Computer Engineering, Electrical, yada,yada, in general a program that is housed in the Engineering school, attend school for 4 years, do some internships, and you will comfortably have a progressive job where you will be making $100-200K by the time the doctor sahab graduates, with a 500K-$1million already in the bank. Not to mention, by the time he graduates, you probably own companies and multiple startups, while he is busy trying to figure out whose loan to pay off first. Earlier you mentioned this applies strictly to the top schools. I disagree, I know folks at Stony Brook, who have graduated with Computer Science degrees, and they now work for Google, Microsoft, Amazon, making more than what a 1st year medical student can dream of.

I thought that before, but what do you think of the Atlantic Monthly NSF data? I mean if I were abetting man, I could with certaintly put money on you and invest in your company knowing its a near sure thing. But the article seems to point to the fact that the average engineer is just barely staying above the bio major curves.

I have also seen medical students regret their decisions, to an extent where I feel like 'educating' the public about the cons associated with going pre-med. I know countless people BA, who have destroyed the lives of their families and themselves for choosing to do pre-med, and then not being able to attend med school. I know someone who works at Rite-Aid now, and he used to be pre-med + honors Chemistry at Binghamton University. On the contrary I know someone from UT-Austin, majored in Computer Science, and he makes comfortable money.

This example is KEY. I would say that we all have to be smart and understand our directions. That guy at Rite Aid is likely a good hearted person but luckily an Admin Khan sorta guy can encounter his younger bro in the future and say "Hey man, you sure you wanna do medicine?" The kid says "yeah." So then Admin Khan could say "look if you decide you dont wnat the perks of engineering... then do the degree and revisit the medicine issue with your engineering degree in hand"

Then we have our innovative brothers, like the ones at MIT, Harvard, Stanford, and the gang, who decide to create DropBox, or the next big thing, and they end up making more than the the first 200 of your colleagues combined in a short month or two. Think about the aforementioned carefully, and recognize the vast sense of opportunities. Even if someone really likes medicine, companies like Epic, KyRus, make a living by developing Software for Medicine.

No doubt I visited Epic's headquarters in U Wisconsin as I was involved in giving clinical feedback back when a newer version was being developed. Brilliant people. The cool thing is they have MDs who were computer scientists and decided to couple their practice to software engineering (i.e. they practiced 1/4 of the year and wrote code the rest).

In case you think this is just my opinion, I disagree. Computer Science is the #1 degree in the USA right now, just about every Tom, ****, and Harry, along with official BLS surveys rank it #1. It is also no surprise that Software Engineering has the highest job growth, at least for the next 30 years, and the best paid and most happiest employees. A Professor at MIT recently came up with 'wireless electricity', check it out here.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j4sAzaKfbRc

Don't be surprised if Computer Scientists soon, thanks to universities like Carnegie Mellon for spearheading the global process, come up with Robotic Surgeries, where if before we needed 10 surgeons present, now having 2 present might be an overkill. People once thought they would never get rid of the local person who used to sell them 'train' tickets, now we have Computer Scientists that came up with Kiosks. You might think we might never get rid of Doctors, I argue that in the next 50 years, we won't need as many Doctors in the USA, with the rise of Robotics program.

I thought so too one I was on the engineering side of things young gun. But them I saw that the DaVinci Robot actually seemed to lateralize care as opposed to advancing it... and still required an MD to drive it.

I suggest you to take a look at what CMU is doing. CMU is global heavy weight universities[Think CMU, MIT, UCB, UT-Austin, etc] in Computer Science & Robotics, and the plans they have for Robotics, along with the team of scientists they have, is simply astounding and amazing. I'm sure you know that CMU and MIT talk the talk, and walk the walk when it comes to innovation and delivering, one of the goals is to identify diseases more easily, robotically, along with other innovative ideas. Remember, the aforementioned might sound 'crazy' but there was once a time where the internet appeared 'impossible'.
http://www.asbestos.com/news/2013/04...oma-treatment/

Major caveat:
I want to emphasize on this, even though I know BA knows this, I would NEVER discourage someone for doing an M.D if it is his/her passion. I just feel like if you think you will make more money, or live a better life than an Engineer, then it's arguably a pretty dumb choice[as per a ton of surveys and statistics, Software Engineers live far better, and more comfortable lives than Doctors, there isn't even a comparison].

x

[Badlun]

Alas we Pashtuns and Muslims could discuss such issues about our own universities and other educational institutions. It seems we are centuries behind and still not learning from the west and searching our inspirations from the deserts of Arabia!

[Al Hanif]

Alas we Pashtuns and Muslims could discuss such issues about our own universities and other educational institutions. It seems we are centuries behind and still not learning from the west and searching our inspirations from the deserts of Arabia!

The first university in the entire world was funded in Morocco, Fes.

According to the Guinness Book of Records.

It's Europeans who were centuries behind us.

University of al-Karaouine - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

[BarakzaiAbdali]

Alas we Pashtuns and Muslims could discuss such issues about our own universities and other educational institutions. It seems we are centuries behind and still not learning from the west and searching our inspirations from the deserts of Arabia!

Both Admin and I have tried to influence "our own universities" in the ethnic sense. The local dean of Khybar was, according to students, known as "Truck Driver." The folks at Jalalabad were pretty much political bigwigs too. A group of us Pashtuns offered to advise (and we did it in a very politically correct manner for the place in terms of not insulting the local doctors by saying we knew better than them) the local curriculum to bring it up to par. In both instances we were told in no uncertain terms that they would gladly accept our money but not our advice. I can tell you from experience that Mr. Truck Driver was, per the students, not a religious man by any means and neither was he qualified for his position. Across the border, same story. These positions were doled out based on family connections etc.

I thrice contact the Afghan government officials in their initial stage in the 2002 period to set up relationships that would benefit them as per contacts with the major universities there. The American side had their meeting within days and unfortunately, we heard nothing back from the other side. And this was was the POST Taliban period.

And by the way, Lawrance of Arabia and others searched for their inspiration from "the deserts of Arabia."

I find the desert to be a beautiful place as I do the Norwegian woods. Each place and its inhabitants and their respective histories offers much to the modern world in terms of simple living.

[Badlun]

Doctor saib
This state of affairs need our attention on a pragmatic way. We should let the universities there in Pashtunland to be professional and not run by truck drivers and political people.

I have been to Khyber medical university in Peshawar, Nishtar medical college in Multan and have found them refutable and centers of excellence. Although I am not a doctor but have attended some seminars there and have found them professional. So far no experience with any medical institution in Afghanistan but have met many Afghans doctors and generally they are not bad but not on the level of doctors from India, Iran or Pakistan.

A person of your caliber may chalk out a strategy and may send some proposals to the rectors of all these universities and may share your experiences so that they may also improve quality of their education on the way we have in the infidel west.

I love deserts too and one of my hobby is to pass few nights in the tents in the deserts in Qatar. From desert culture I mean Salafism, Wahabism from where we get inspiration and our whole focus is on Sharia, Islamization, implementing Hadoods, fanaticism and never on improving our educational system.