College Tuition Debate

[BarakzaiAbdali]

http://www.cnn.com/2011/12/02/opinio...html?hpt=hp_c1

Peter Schiff exposes college scam - Interviews Kelli Space (1 of 2) - YouTube

Peter Schiff's interview ^

[Admin Khan]

College is not a scam, I wholeheartedly disagree. You can't learn EE, or CpE in your bathroom. However, college might become a scam when you attend Yale, Harvard, Columbia and other expensive institutions without a full-ride, or partial ride. There are many state schools, such as SUNY @ Stony Brook, SUNY @ Binghampton, UC BERKELEY who are part of the prestigious AARU, and their tuition comes no where close to those expensive private schools. In my opinion, attending NYU, Harvard, Yale, Columbia is pretty much useless and a failed investment if you are coughing up 50K per year for it. For instance, City College's Grove School of Engineering is a pretty good school, with a history that predates many IVY leagues. Baruch College has a business program that put's many of those "expensive" schools to shame. Stony Brook has a CS program[ranked 2nd in NYS], that even makes PolyTechnic University(which is 8-10 more expensive)struggle to compete. Rutgers NJ's state premier university put's many expensive schools to shame. In the recent ACM programming contest, IVY leagues where hard to find on the top 10. In fact, some IVY's got their butt kicked for cheap 3K per semester schools. Taking advantage of education is up to the student, not the institution. Most public schools will provide a student with what he/she needs to be successful.

In this economy, STEM majors might be the only students who be receiving job offers before they graduate. I'm sure none of them would want their schools to be called a scam. Angry liberal arts majors, who attended a school that was 40-60K per year, to study English or Sociology(no offense to these majors)might be the ones yelling and screaming that college is a scam.

[BarakzaiAbdali]

College is not a scam, I wholeheartedly disagree. You can't learn EE, or CpE in your bathroom. However, college might become a scam when you attend Yale, Harvard, Columbia and other expensive institutions without a full-ride, or partial ride. There are many state schools, such as SUNY @ Stony Brook, SUNY @ Binghampton, UC BERKELEY who are part of the prestigious AARU, and their tuition comes no where close to those expensive private schools. In my opinion, attending NYU, Harvard, Yale, Columbia is pretty much useless and a failed investment if you are coughing up 50K per year for it. For instance, City College's Grove School of Engineering is a pretty good school, with a history that predates many IVY leagues. Baruch College has a business program that put's many of those "expensive" schools to shame. Stony Brook has a CS program[ranked 2nd in NYS], that even makes PolyTechnic University(which is 8-10 more expensive)struggle to compete. Rutgers NJ's state premier university put's many expensive schools to shame.

In this economy, STEM majors might be the only students who be receiving job offers before they graduate. I'm sure none of them would want their schools to be called a scam. Angry liberal arts majors, who attended a school that was 40K per year, to study English or Sociology(no offense to these majors)will be the ones yelling and screaming that college is a scam.

No you are correct in many ways. I recall that when I was in engineering school, my dad used to remind me again and again: you have to make it because there is no job waiting for you if you fail or screw up. We dont have anyone to do that for you. Lo and behold, many of those wealthy elitist whites that I went to school with, who were too busy getting drunk or worse, who nearly failed out and had to switch majors are living the high life because of who they knew.

So take Al Gore or a Kennedy or the daughter of an Oil Barron who goes to Emory, Stanford, Harvard, etc. She's got a job waiting for her. Some of the Gulfie Arabs were in the same boat. They used to laze around during Ramadan missing all their courses and their GPAs would plummet. But they had Aramco jobs waiting for them.

The central asian or south asian who is a first or second generation immigrant doesnt have that luxury.

Admin Khan, I still remember one girl, one of my engineering classmate's girlfriends asked me: So when Muslims pray to the sun is that because Pharoah was a sun god?

Thanks to the proper channels during the Bush era, she is now a ranking official in the Departemnt of Homeland Security.

I think where name may be of benefit is in those committed to staying in academics. If you look across the country at chairmans of departments they tend to derive from these upper teir schools.

The issue with these English major folks you speak of us that they just thought they would get an English degree and then be off being Lois Lane, writing for the Ny Times with a job lined up waiting for them.

[Admin Khan]

No you are correct in many ways. I recall that when I was in engineering school, my dad used to remind me again and again: you have to make it because there is no job waiting for you if you fail or screw up. We dont have anyone to do that for you. Lo and behold, many of those wealthy elitist whites that I went to school with, who were too busy getting drunk or worse, who nearly failed out and had to switch majors are living the high life because of who they knew.

So take Al Gore or a Kennedy or the daughter of an Oil Barron who goes to Emory, Stanford, Harvard, etc. She's got a job waiting for her. Some of the Gulfie Arabs were in the same boat. They used to laze around during Ramadan missing all their courses and their GPAs would plummet. But they had Aramco jobs waiting for them.

The central asian or south asian who is a first or second generation immigrant doesnt have that luxury.

Admin Khan, I still remember one girl, one of my engineering classmate's girlfriends asked me: So when Muslims pray to the sun is that because Pharoah was a sun god?

Thanks to the proper channels during the Bush era, she is now a ranking official in the Departemnt of Homeland Security.

I think where name may be of benefit is in those committed to staying in academics. If you look across the country at chairmans of departments they tend to derive from these upper teir schools.

The issue with these English major folks you speak of us that they just thought they would get an English degree and then be off being Lois Lane, writing for the Ny Times with a job lined up waiting for them.

Some chairs derive from upper-tier, but some also derive from lower state school. Stanford University president, arguably the best university in the world, got his M.S and Ph.D from SUNY @ STONY BROOK. Hennessy is a big shot in C.S. Andrew Grove, the man who founded INTEL graduated from the CCNY, and he was the man who later created the GROVE SCHOOL OF ENGINEERING in Manhattan.
John L. Hennessy - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I can also name a few more, but you see the point comes back to what your mohtaram dad said, you can't expect a job waiting for us, because we simply don't have the resources. I would fully recommend an IVY only if you have some way to pay for it, or if you have a job waiting for you. There are many state schools that offer the same, if not better education.

Selecting a major also plays a ground-breaking role. I would always recommend majoring in what you enjoy, but that doesn't always cut it. You have to find a major which you not only enjoy, but it has some sort of demand.

[BarakzaiAbdali]

Some chairs derive from upper-tier, but some also derive from lower state school. Stanford University president, arguably the best university in the world, got his M.S and Ph.D from SUNY @ STONY BROOK. Hennessy is a big shot in C.S. Andrew Grove, the man who founded INTEL graduated from the CCNY, and he was the man who later created the GROVE SCHOOL OF ENGINEERING in Manhattan.
John L. Hennessy - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I can also name a few more, but you see the point comes back to what your mohtaram dad said, you can't expect a job waiting for us, because we simply don't have the resources. I would fully recommend an IVY only if you have some way to pay for it, or if you have a job waiting for you. There are many state schools that offer the same, if not better education.

Selecting a major also plays a ground-breaking role. I would always recommend majoring in what you enjoy, but that doesn't always cut it. You have to find a major which you not only enjoy, but it has some sort of demand.

I agree, what engineering really meant when it came down to it.. was how practical where you from the get go.

I knew one kid who did not have the strongest GPA because he was a little lazy at times, but darn he was sharp and capable! He grew up fixing cars and computers with his dad. Whenever practical applications of engineering science came around, he outshone every one. Had he just put in a little more effort this Alabaman would have made everyone who he thought was book smart, look like kids.

Admin some of it is the issue of the Eastern success story versus the "Western" practical approach to things.

In Iran, Pakistan, and Afghanistan the kids who got out... the kids that came to the US and were the successfull immigrant generation were the ones that sat with their books by candle light, used curtains to study in secret when the laskhars were fighting, and really did avoid extraneous time wasting activities. The kids who were tinkerers back home, messing with radio boxes and cars were the smoker, charsyaano brother in laws, cousins etc who were taking joy rides to Tehran.

And if you have oriental asian friends they have a very similar parental immigrant history as do Arabs.

So when they came here they saw their American colleagues's kids learning extremely important and practical skills sets in life like putting guns together, hunting, building race cars, programming, building computers and they thought these were distracted kids.

Some of them were, but a great number of them are actually people who understand, because of their practical applications, what the physics formulas mean, what the chemistry entails, what the coded progam executes, how to practically design the program modules. etc.

So where the asian immigrants succeede was they outstudied these kids... but did not necessarily out smart them.

Take for instance the very simple grade school lesson on density.

The bookish child memorizes the formula... if you ask him:
What is density... he fires back confidently d = m/v. He knows the formula, but cannot explain its interpretation.

Now, the practical person, if asked what it means will take a tennis ball and a lead ball of the exact same volume and lay them next to each other. He will teach his child: hold of each of these. This is what that formula means!

By that same token, I agree. Take Ohio State University. During my J&J days I worked with some sharp engineers who knew more than the Harvard Mech E grad in terms of practical design.

If our people begin to couple practical knowledge of life to bookish learning we will be far better off irrespective of where one goes to school.

The practical sharp engineer from OSU can certainly out do the studious Yale Engineer any day of the week.

[Admin Khan]

I agree, what engineering really meant when it came down to it.. was how practical where you from the get go.

I knew one kid who did not have the strongest GPA because he was a little lazy at times, but darn he was sharp and capable! He grew up fixing cars and computers with his dad. Whenever practical applications of engineering science came around, he outshone every one. Had he just put in a little more effort this Alabaman would have made everyone who he thought was book smart, look like kids.

Admin some of it is the issue of the Eastern success story versus the "Western" practical approach to things.

In Iran, Pakistan, and Afghanistan the kids who got out... the kids that came to the US and were the successfull immigrant generation were the ones that sat with their books by candle light, used curtains to study in secret when the laskhars were fighting, and really did avoid extraneous time wasting activities. The kids who were tinkerers back home, messing with radio boxes and cars were the smoker, charsyaano brother in laws, cousins etc who were taking joy rides to Tehran.

And if you have oriental asian friends they have a very similar parental immigrant history as do Arabs.

So when they came here they saw their American colleagues's kids learning extremely important and practical skills sets in life like putting guns together, hunting, building race cars, programming, building computers and they thought these were distracted kids.

Some of them were, but a great number of them are actually people who understand, because of their practical applications, what the physics formulas mean, what the chemistry entails, what the coded progam executes, how to practically design the program modules. etc.

So where the asian immigrants succeede was they outstudied these kids... but did not necessarily out smart them.

Take for instance the very simple grade school lesson on density.

The bookish child memorizes the formula... if you ask him:
What is density... he fires back confidently d = m/v. He knows the formula, but cannot explain its interpretation.

Now, the practical person, if asked what it means will take a tennis ball and a lead ball of the exact same volume and lay them next to each other. He will teach his child: hold of each of these. This is what that formula means!

By that same token, I agree. Take Ohio State University. During my J&J days I worked with some sharp engineers who knew more than the Harvard Mech E grad in terms of practical design.

If our people begin to couple practical knowledge of life to bookish learning we will be far better off irrespective of where one goes to school.

The practical sharp engineer from OSU can certainly out do the studious Yale Engineer any day of the week.

That's absolutely true. Unfortunately, the way they are taught in India and Pakistan is just disastrous to say the least. They invest 4 years in medical school, cramming up definitions without knowing what it means. They invest 4 years in an engineering school, and when they graduate with an EE or CpE degree. They know OHMS law is V= IR, but when asked to explain it all they can say "Voltage is equal to the current times the resistance". I remember my professor once telling me this student from India, who had a near perfect 'percentage' could not describe what voltage is. He kept on spitting out this definition he had memorized, but he had no clue how to practically explain it. And the aforementioned is exactly why I would prefer an American doctor over a Pakistani or Indian one any day of the week.

[Ahmad Walid]

In my opinion college is a joke ( so far I am half way through my second year), waste of a lot of money. The biggest disappointment I have is that I payed to go to my classes, when it is completely useless to listen to a professor who doesn't know how to teach. To Admin Khan brother, the only way I see that you can get through college with a 4.0 or somewhat a good grade is through either cheating or memorizing everything (personally I hate memorizing prefer understanding). Professors cannot teach, they are only good for their research.

Take my genetics class for example. I studied my ass off for a midterm but because of cheaters (sororities/frats) who got a hold of an old exam from a former member the night before the exam, they managed to do a lot better then they would have. Can you believe we had 27 people with perfect scores on the midterm exam! That right there is messed up, that never happens in a 200-300 lvl course. They messed up the curve, half of the class failed too. What does the professor do? Nothing he actually says to me that he thinks those students are smart and had good high school biology teachers lol. I wanted to punch the guy so hard in the face. Anyways, ruined the class for me and my gpa.. but Admin Khan my point, nobody gives a dam if you understand something, the only thing that counts is the numbers. Barakzai uncle knows best about how numbers speak to Med School, what doesn't count is how you understand material or if you tried to understand material.

Sorry about my rant, just almost done with a really useless semester. The uselessness of Science professors in Organic and Genetic teachers (who will be my future BCMB professors) in my university hit me hard this semester. I learned one thing from this semester, don't ever expect teachers to know how to teach a subject, you just got to learn it from the book.

[Admin Khan]

In my opinion college is a joke ( so far I am half way through my second year), waste of a lot of money.

Do you attend a private, or public school?

The biggest disappointment I have is that I payed to go to my classes, when it is completely useless to listen to a professor who doesn't know how to teach.

Again, public or private?

To Admin Khan brother, the only way I see that you can get through college with a 4.0 or somewhat a good grade is through either cheating or memorizing everything (personally I hate memorizing prefer understanding).

Who asked you to get a 4.0? If you are majoring in CS, CpE, BmE, EE, ME, Mathematics, and many other STEM disciplines a pesky 3.0 along with some internships is good enough. A 3.0 should not be hard to pull, do you agree? Professor's come in all kind of flavors. Some can teach, some can't. It's up to you to utilize different resources in getting your course-work done.

Take my genetics class for example. I studied my ass off for a midterm but because of cheaters (sororities/frats) who got a hold of an old exam from a former member the night before the exam, they managed to do a lot better then they would have. Can you believe we had 27 people with perfect scores on the midterm exam! That right there is messed up, that never happens in a 200-300 lvl course. They messed up the curve, half of the class failed too. What does the professor do? Nothing he actually says to me that he thinks those students are smart and had good high school biology teachers lol

It's your job to go on websites and search for old-exams as well. I find nothing wrong with that. Study the material, network, and you should be fine. if you studied your ass off, you should've been fine. Don't depend on the curve.

. I wanted to punch the guy so hard in the face. Anyways, ruined the class for me and my gpa.. but Admin Khan my point, nobody gives a dam if you understand something, the only thing that counts is the numbers.

This is false. Say you major in Computer Science, you can show the interviewer that you have a 4.0, but you want to know what their next response will be?
"Awesome Mr.Walid, we see you pulled a 4.0, now it's time for the technical interview. Here is a list of 4 programs, for which we expect you to provide us the algorithm along with pseudo-code".

If you can pass that technical interview, you might land the job. If not, bye-bye. As you can see, the numbers don't matter.

Sorry about my rant, just almost done with a really useless semester. The uselessness of Science professors in Organic and Genetic teachers (who will be my future BCMB professors) in my university hit me hard this semester.

Take a deep breath Ahmad sahab. Orgo is known to be tough, and it's not only you who has suffered. Work hard, and strategically choose your classes next time. Think positive. If you think Pre-med or Bio is tough, just know that there are other students who are studying topics a lot harder and they are doing just fine. Work hard, and don't give up. If you need our assistance, we are here for you.

Also, use KhanAcademy.org

I learned one thing from this semester, don't ever expect teachers to know how to teach a subject, you just got to learn it from the book.

That's how it should be.

[BarakzaiAbdali]

In my opinion college is a joke ( so far I am half way through my second year), waste of a lot of money. The biggest disappointment I have is that I payed to go to my classes, when it is completely useless to listen to a professor who doesn't know how to teach. To Admin Khan brother, the only way I see that you can get through college with a 4.0 or somewhat a good grade is through either cheating or memorizing everything (personally I hate memorizing prefer understanding). Professors cannot teach, they are only good for their research.

Take my genetics class for example. I studied my ass off for a midterm but because of cheaters (sororities/frats) who got a hold of an old exam from a former member the night before the exam, they managed to do a lot better then they would have. Can you believe we had 27 people with perfect scores on the midterm exam! That right there is messed up, that never happens in a 200-300 lvl course. They messed up the curve, half of the class failed too. What does the professor do? Nothing he actually says to me that he thinks those students are smart and had good high school biology teachers lol. I wanted to punch the guy so hard in the face. Anyways, ruined the class for me and my gpa.. but Admin Khan my point, nobody gives a dam if you understand something, the only thing that counts is the numbers. Barakzai uncle knows best about how numbers speak to Med School, what doesn't count is how you understand material or if you tried to understand material.

Sorry about my rant, just almost done with a really useless semester. The uselessness of Science professors in Organic and Genetic teachers (who will be my future BCMB professors) in my university hit me hard this semester. I learned one thing from this semester, don't ever expect teachers to know how to teach a subject, you just got to learn it from the book.

You are very astute and accurate my friend. I will tell you how I countered this influence. There are four ways to do this and I utilized two and witnessed four.

Way 1: Branch out and make friends with the Indians, Chinese, and Arabs. These gorups are like their own fraternities and they have test files. You basically make a friend amongst them and work with them. Start to have fun with them (bowling, a coffee here and there). You make great life long friends but eventually they will start to include you.

Way 2: the department had surveys because they were anal about trying to maintain a US News and World Report rank and wanted to see what students thought. I wrote clearly and cogently on there about these shenanigans of lazy professors and repeated exams. Within 2 months old exams for the last decade were force posted on the department web page and that evened things out.

Way 3: Make a frat friend. This way is very evil to many Muslims and they see it as compromising with the devil as they associate frats with George W Bush. I do not agree. Amongst these frat types there are some very gifted people. A personal story: One of the frat types saw that I worked hard and that I understood the concepts in an EE course. He sought me out and I incorporated him into my group.

Now despite everyone thinking this kid was just your happy go lucky Van Wilder wannabe, he was not anything like that. He was on the surface, but below it he was a fantastic albeit insecure guy. The kid actually had it rough growing up. His dad died when he was a kid and he worked his ass off.

I used to wear a trade mark Pakul everywhere and some fancy footwear from Quetta. So he got curious since he knew I was from Afghanistan.

We both benefited because when 9/11 happened he just started to ask me many questions about why the Muslim world was so pissed.

Eventually he asked me for a Quran and I gave one to him. He read it and had fights with his own family in small town Indiana about what he saw as just doctrines within Islam.

At the end of the day that guy is now an orthopedic surgeon and we still are close colleagues and have worked on medical device designs together.

That kid was our frat guy hook up and gave us access into all their files.

To even things out we then distributed these to folks.

Way 4: Many family members attend the same university successively. One Nangrahari kid I knew had files from his brothers and sisters and his friend's era.

In regard to understanding concepts, I wish I wish I wish I had Youtube and all these HHMI science videos and what not that are now available.

Its amazing, you can learn so much about cardiovascular systems by simply finding an outstanding lecture or computer rendering of a concept on youtube or google video.

One can visualize stent deployments, the double helices, etc.

In essence my friend, I agree with you. America is very much a meritocracy but in recent years with the emphasis on professors conducting top notch research and having to publish or perish, teaching has gone by the wayside.

I did my best to level the playing field.

What I can say is that you will find out that USMLE exams MCATS, Engineering in Training Exams, Professioanl Engineering Licensure exams will even the playing field. Those are highly guarded and standardized.

Blow the MCAT out of the water and you will level the playing field. That was my optimal tactic.

[Ahmad Walid]

Thanks for the advice Barakzai uncle and Admin Khan brother. Point made by Barakzai uncle: Make connections.

To answer Admin Khan's questions:
1. I go to a state research university.
2. The old exam was not posted online, I made sure about that.
3. Studying your ass off does not mean making a perfect score, usually it goes like 1-5 people will make perfect scores and 20-30 will makes high B's to B, some b- and on.. I actually would have gotten an A if 27 people didn't get a perfect score. Professors usually curve the class if not many people are making perfect scores on exams.
4. Organic chemistry hasn't been hard just yet, it will be a pain next semester when Organic 2 starts.
5. I have youtube as my teacher for organic right now. A guy named freelanceteacher on youtube is probably the best teacher I have ever had. What makes me angry is that I payed a useless teacher to teach me but I am learning so much from a guy on youtube. For god's sake Ituition is like 8 grand here (I know that's cheap compared to private school but still).

Barakzai uncle I am planning and relying on the MCAT . Going to study hard and make sure I understand every single detail and do countless problems. And also I am not much of a volunteer (find carrying and doing paperwork for doctors is boring) so I have decided to do some research this summer. From what you had said about Med schools wanting research doctors, I feel a lot of research and laboratory experience would be helpful for admissions.

P.S. I take advice from you guys very seriously as you guys have tons more experience then me. And I appreciate it very much.

[BarakzaiAbdali]

Thanks for the advice Barakzai uncle and Admin Khan brother. Point made by Barakzai uncle: Make connections.

To answer Admin Khan's questions:
1. I go to a state research university.
2. The old exam was not posted online, I made sure about that.
3. Studying your ass off does not mean making a perfect score, usually it goes like 1-5 people will make perfect scores and 20-30 will makes high B's to B, some b- and on.. I actually would have gotten an A if 27 people didn't get a perfect score. Professors usually curve the class if not many people are making perfect scores on exams.
4. Organic chemistry hasn't been hard just yet, it will be a pain next semester when Organic 2 starts.
5. I have youtube as my teacher for organic right now. A guy named freelanceteacher on youtube is probably the best teacher I have ever had. What makes me angry is that I payed a useless teacher to teach me but I am learning so much from a guy on youtube. For god's sake Ituition is like 8 grand here (I know that's cheap compared to private school but still).

Barakzai uncle I am planning and relying on the MCAT . Going to study hard and make sure I understand every single detail and do countless problems. And also I am not much of a volunteer (find carrying and doing paperwork for doctors is boring) so I have decided to do some research this summer. From what you had said about Med schools wanting research doctors, I feel a lot of research and laboratory experience would be helpful for admissions.

P.S. I take advice from you guys very seriously as you guys have tons more experience then me. And I appreciate it very much.

How come Admin is brother and I am Uncle? Does he sound young and vibrant and do I sound crusty and old lol, jk. Im just shy of 31. I guess that is Uncle territory...

Yeah do the networking but find smart people who work hard to do it with. This often means, find out those curve busters and go study with them if they oblige.

[emkhan]

How come Admin is brother and I am Uncle? Does he sound young and vibrant and do I sound crusty and old lol, jk. Im just shy of 31. I guess that is Uncle territory...

hahahahahha....... he made me laugh when he said such about you ...

[Admin Khan]

Ahmad Walid, get paid access to CourseHero. I am confident that CourseHero will have access to old exams. Also, visit your professor during his office hours, and ask 'So, how will the exam structure be? How many questions? How many questions will be on PashtunForums?" etc, etc. I'm sure you got the point.

[Iqra]

No you are correct in many ways. I recall that when I was in engineering school, my dad used to remind me again and again: you have to make it because there is no job waiting for you if you fail or screw up. We dont have anyone to do that for you.

If only ALL of us listened to our elders!

How come Admin is brother and I am Uncle? Does he sound young and vibrant and do I sound crusty and old lol, jk. Im just shy of 31. I guess that is Uncle territory...

loool aww it was so cute how he referred to you as uncle


Anyways really wise words, hope those who are still in school take advantage. One of the most important things ...and I feel like basically what Barakzai is saying is the same ... is how important connections/networking can be. It isn't only a benefit while you're in school, but also after one graduates.

[Laila]

I will speak about California universities, so basically, we are screwed. Our UC's system is taking more out-of-state and international students over California students, just so that they can get more money. And these are public schools. It increases nearly 30% every year. Even the CSU schools increase their tuition by alot. It sucks for people like me that do not get any sort of financial aid.