India offers scholarships to Afghan students

[BarakzaiAbdali]

Sangar,
You assume that everyone that disagrees with you is a nationalist. Im not a nationlaist, I dont beleive nationlaism works because throughout history nationlaism has never worked or was never sustained for very long.

I am critical of anything that is negative for my people. Pakistan, Saudi Arabia, America, and the Soviets are the main conspirators that have done nothing but aid in the destruction of Afghans for their own interests.

You are wrong when you say Pakistan and India are the same. Pakistan was a major player in the destruction of Afghanistan. They played a major role in manipulating the Russian invasion, They played a major role in creating the fitna between the different ethnicites in afghanistan. They played a major role in the American Invasion of Afghanistan. They have and they continue to aid anyone that have any interests in the killing of innocent Pashtuns.

Who cares if the halqi/parchami got their education in the soviet union. It does not matter where you get your education, if you are a good muslim, no education should be able to manipulate your islamic principles, Everyone has a conscience and knows what is right and wrong. Those people were never good from the beginning. Even if they received their education in the madrasas in Pakistan, they would still be as corrupt as ever. You got your education in a land where prostitution and drug use is legal and encouraged, does that automatically mean you are a drugy and a pimp. Does that automatically mean you support Nato forces. My uncle got his education in the soviet union, he hated the communists with a passion and he fought the soviets with the last drop of his blood.

I know you would like to live back in the 7th century but the society that is easily subdued is the one with a weak economy, an economy that distrubute wealth and resource unfairly to the people. We need an economy that is strong and fair to its citizens. An economy that narrows the gap between rich and poor and equal economic and social oppertunity for all.

Would only slightly disagree. I think the original purpose of Admin Khan's post was to promote education for the individual (the man (or woman) on the ground per se). That is a very reasonable goal. I reiterate, whether its education in US, Pakistan, India, Russia, etc it matters little, but education is important to the individual. I find a commonality with you that most people are not automatons that just walk around being spoon fed loyalties, so I think its perfectly fine to pursue an education in such places. In fact, Pakistani Pashtuns also have traveled to post USSR Russia for engineering degrees. I have met them. The issue as I meant to illustrate above, is who actually benefits from such endeavors. A quality control needs to be instituted over the massively corrupt Afghan government.

However, as I stated above, India did actually have a historical role to play in the USSR invasion, siding with Russia and assisting them directly. Multiple countries have played a large role in the great game. The reason why Pakistan will continue to do so is strategic depth and its sizable Pashtun population allows for it to utilize the historical link between tribes for that goal. Where a strong Afghanistan to arise, it would may require a similar stragetic depth. Per the war in the caucuses under Doku Umarov and the recent spate of Moscow bombings, Moscow will be loathe to permit an independent Afghanistan in the way that Ahmad Shah Abdali might have envisioned it.

[KhalsaWarrior]

Well this is exactly the issue.

1) Everyone is entitled to the ability to seek an education... but not an education itself. So if an Afghan villager has the chance to seek an education abroad, whether it be in Pakistan, the US, or India that is his or her perogative. On an individual level, people will do what is best for them.

2) Where you get your education does not have to force you to abandon your own personal viewpoints. For example, India's support of Soviet Migs is a fact and no Afghan can forget this, especially the Qandahariaan. An Afghan can simulataneously get an education and retain his views, i.e., he ought not to feel an intellectual debt to India. If he takes on Indian citizenship, then his loyalties and where they are is an entirely different matter. By the same token, the largesse of Pakistan also does not indebt an Afghan to take sides against that which is right and just. The Afghan/Muslim must do what is best regardless of where they are educated. Jingoism of any sort is blinding to good decision making.

3) The issue with these programs are who they reward. See this article:

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/02/26/ma...?pagewanted=11

3 out of 4 of the Pashtuns/Afghans/Pakistanis that have benefited from Yale's largesse are not the down trodden, the common folk, or those that are in need like the unfortunate Mr. Hashemi. Hydar Akbar is the son of an Afghan official in California originally attending community college there. Like Mr. Hosseini, he wrote a book on the back of the Afghan people and that was his ticket to ride the ivy league gravy train for the sons and daughters of the elites. Once the Karzai government gained power, Mr. Akbar's father was given a high government slot in Kunar. Lo and behold, Mr. Akbar is given a slot at Yale; what were has SATs? what were his GPA credentials as he appeared to not have the credentials to enter an equivalent academic institute in California.:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hyder_Akbar

Here is what he accomplished with his education:

http://www.ivygateblog.com/2010/01/h...know-about-it/


Mr. Khattak is the son of a high ranking military official in the Pakistani Army. He appeared to be extremely intelligent and bright as an engineer, so his academic accolades may have been up the measure. Nonetheless, there are many Pakistani Pashtuns from lower middle class families that might have been as competitive for the spot.

The current Pashtun student studying there also has governmental links.

Now contrast this with the fate of Mr. Hashemi, an actual, poor, down trodden villager, who like many a young man joined the Taliban out of necessity (he was kicked out after pressure from alumni). He also met the academic credentials per the program he was in and continued to do just fine academically:

http://www.usatoday.com/news/opinion...ing-view_x.htm

Mr. Taylor succeeded in his campaign to eject Mr. Hashemi from Yale. To his credit, Mr. Hashemi refused to heap abuse on his former comrades when congressional officials asked him to do so in order to stay, such as on Abdul Salam Zaeef or Omar Hotak, and allowed his progress at Yale to speak for itself.

So the issue here is meritocracy and the lack thereof when such endeavors are undertaken by outside nation states. The goal of India, Pakistan, and US are to groom these elites and to further their own goals at the expense of what their people want.

A Yale official and I spoke about the unbalanced representation at Yale from the governing elite from the Arab countries, Afghanistan, Pakistan etc. They admitted that meritocratic examples are lacking when it comes to these Fulbright scholarships and other avenues that involve two governments collaborating to send students abroad.

BA, thanks for your post. Its always a pleasure to read a logical argument then bigotted rants about idol-worshipers.

Regarding your point about these scholarships being used as a tool to build a favorable intelligentia, I think thats very much possible and could indeed be the motive. I would however, imagine that Indian help is not viewed purely by this instance. Other initiatives like roads, hospitals, power lines and schools are taken int account when evaluating India's role in Afghanistan.

[ScimitarXEdge]

Every Muslims version of Islam is Sunnah and Quran. What is your rebuttal to that?
Please educate me on how the British Empire started, sir.
Allow me to rephrase, pansie, did Jinnah divide Muslims?

Which is exactly why Ismailis are not Muslims since they shun both the Qur'an and the Sunnah and opt for the Agha Khan's "Ilham".

[Feroza_Banu]

as soon as the phatans here see a development news from Afghanistan, funded by India, all gather in one place to argue how India is serving its own purpose, or how its a secret agenda against Afghans... get real you phatans... there is nothing India can do that can be worse than what your panjabi masters have done to us.

you and your panjabi friends are no better than hitler... India is far far away to make the list of evils in our book!... but nice try though

[Feroza_Banu]

In Pakistan Afghans are notorious for being back stabbing people, for-example the families of you guys had taken refuge in Pakistan, but i see no one here to thank Pakistan for giving refuge..

Khyber Pakhtunkhwa and Balochistan are parts of Pakistan. Even with powerful army, Pakistan has never tried to seize territories of afghanistan.
Tell me how Afghanistan will take back half of Afghanistan? through war?

^
^
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LOL

deluded

i think u got ur answer with his reply

[ScimitarXEdge]

as soon as the phatans here see a development news from Afghanistan, funded by India, all gather in one place to argue how India is serving its own purpose, or how its a secret agenda against Afghans... get real you phatans... there is nothing India can do that can be worse than what your panjabi masters have done to us.

you and your panjabi friends are no better than hitler... India is far far away to make the list of evils in our book!... but nice try though

Obviously any country which has geopolitical interests will be trying to do things to exploit it for it's own ends and means. This isn't about whether it's doing so to undermine Afghans, but much like Pakistan had done, they want to use their own opportunity for their own agenda, what they're doing now appears to be a step to contrast from Pakistan who funded the Taliban which hindered educational opportunities by trying to offer them. Of course this isn't somehow evil in itself, but it's important to understand the dynamics and motivations. This isn't about whether India could/would do it; it's just Pakistan beat them to the punch. This same tactic is being used in Iraq now, America supported the Arabs, now they're supporting the Kurds. It's about what opportunity is used for it. Afghanistan is seen as India and Pakistan's game peace, he who has influence over it, has regional power. To deny this is naive.

Also what you're saying isn't completely true India has done a great deal, remember India was funding Massoud's camps who had done their own share of upheaval, albeit not to the same degree as Taliban, but still wrong none the less.

[Karachi]

india is indeed serving its own interests, even khalsa said that, however i am not against afghans getting help from india in education and in other fields. the only things most pakistanis would be against is indian military presence there, though i dont think that will happen until america is there.

[BarakzaiAbdali]

as soon as the phatans here see a development news from Afghanistan, funded by India, all gather in one place to argue how India is serving its own purpose, or how its a secret agenda against Afghans... get real you phatans... there is nothing India can do that can be worse than what your panjabi masters have done to us.

you and your panjabi friends are no better than hitler... India is far far away to make the list of evils in our book!... but nice try though

Salamoona,

I think a more reasonable answer is to point out the evidence as opposed to referring to them as Phatans. Gently direct them to the evidence and we may come together to a common sense middle point.:

Here is a similar response I gave elsewhere:
http://www.pashtunforums.com/hujra-1...10/index7.html

For example, an excellent factoid to point out is that a Pakistani, Pashtun or non, lecturing an Afghan for taking aid ought to think about the pot calling the kettle black right?:

After all, one of the largest beneficiaries of Chinese and American aid is none other than Pakistan. Pakistan also conducts military exercises with both countries and allows America to launch incursions from its territory. Both China and America are vehement and open about putting down Islamic insurgencies as much as India is. This is not in the manner similar to joint American and ally exercises where America directs the maneuvers and the outcome...

This has gotten so bad that the American ambassador, Cameron Munter, recently answered the Pakistani press, when told that America had no right to intervene in Pakistani affairs, he answered that Pakistan needs to quiet down a bit because America paid enough to intervene:

"The second criticism is that we have been intrusive on financial and governance issues — that we have been demanding where we should be respectful. Well, the reality is that we are both. We are demanding and respectful. And we will continue to be so when defending or promoting rights and obligations that have been incorporated into multilateral agreements or are accepted universal principles.. But I would add that we make every effort to do so with full respect for and understanding of Pakistan’s traditions, culture and legal and constitutional history. If we seem intrusive, it is because we care. We are Pakistan’s largest donor. Our aid comes as an outright grant of assistance, which is very different from offering loans that must be repaid. Therefore, we need to be sure that the American taxpayers sees that any foreign government, including yours, is making good use of its resources and responding effectively to its citizen’s needs in a transparent and accountable manner. A large proportion of our aid projects, in fact, are built around the idea of helping Pakistani government institutions – be they federal, provincial, or local – become more responsive. We could just build roads or schools and be done with it. But how would they be sustained? Who would staff and maintain these structures in years to come? That is why we focus so much on helping Pakistan build effective state institutions and a robust economy."

That being said, ScimitarEdge is correct. We should be smart about applying what we get in a way that does not render us a welfare state to anyone or subvert our own goals. After all, it appears that nation states that rely heavily on super powers end up in a rut later on (see Iraq in which Saddam accepted massive amounts of American aid). Nations on an economic down slope also borrow in this fashion (see America and its trade deficit to China).

What appears to have also gotten Zahir Shah into the hot seat initially was that he took an Afghanistan that could have developed some sense of independence and made it dependent on foreign aid from the USSR, earning the same response of "we pay we play" as Mr. Munter gave above.

Israel appears to be an exception to this rule and has maneuvered its aid package into nonnegotiable territory. Basically, they get what they want economically and militarily from the US, but they also refuse to take direction from it.

[BarakzaiAbdali]

BA, thanks for your post. Its always a pleasure to read a logical argument then bigotted rants about idol-worshipers.

Regarding your point about these scholarships being used as a tool to build a favorable intelligentia, I think thats very much possible and could indeed be the motive. I would however, imagine that Indian help is not viewed purely by this instance. Other initiatives like roads, hospitals, power lines and schools are taken int account when evaluating India's role in Afghanistan.

Thanks, I enjoy the exchange. Look forward to further discussion.

[Miakhel]

It is good for student

[KhalsaWarrior]

From my side, all I can say is that Afghans should be smart about it all. They should take all the help they can get but remember who they are and what are the interests of their own nation, their own people. Learn all that you can, develop all that you can but be your own masters and follow your own goals.

[Admin Khan]

From my side, all I can say is that Afghans should be smart about it all. They should take all the help they can get but remember who they are and what are the interests of their own nation, their own people. Learn all that you can, develop all that you can but be your own masters and follow your own goals.

That is certainly true. However, we don't have that kind of leadership. Our current leadership is full of officials who don't even have a high school diploma. How pathetic is that? I assume they are in these powerful seats, because they serve hidden interests. In fact, I even read an article on how Pashtuns wanted scholarships to study in India, and they had the grades to prove they can handle the tough course-work, yet the officials had told them 'Go ask Mullah Omar for a scholarship'. This is unfortunately our sad case. By the way, the aforementioned was in an article written by a few scholars.

Most of our officials are either American or Canandian citizens, in simpler words, when things go out hand, they have their own beds already in the west.

[Iblis_Efreetzai]

^ most pashtuns on the pakistani side do not think like that, or else there would have been a rising against the state long ago.

My grandfather was Pashtun, he came from Swat region, which is in pakistan today, I dont know if he called himself afghan, but he did call himself Pakhtun, he was proud of that fact, but he also became a pakistani national, which he was equally proud off.

Also i am not saying army is good, but what i am saying is that pashtuns do make up a huge part of the army, so this mean that pashtuns living on the pakistani side clearly differ with your opinions

My whole point is that what you are saying is only a dream, the reality is much different.

hahahaha Here it everyone, now he denies he was a wannabe Central Asian,

[DaZahroJaam.]

hahahaha Here it everyone, now he denies he was a wannabe Central Asian,

Why are you stalking him from thread to thread?? Are you in love with him??

[Iblis_Efreetzai]

Why are you so protective of him? is he your nafari?