Qrratugai/leavanay zalmay vs Dinosaur khan.

[شمله ور خراساني]

Who makes you call others Kaffir...Look at your own damme self man!

Your such a lunatic, IAm sick of you calling people kaffirs as if your the messiah from the heavens above, your a Nuisence!

If these courses are against Islam then WHAT ARE YOU DOING IN HOLLAND! go to Afghanistan and attend a university there, where you can educate other Afghans about ISI and your love for them

http://www.anger-management-information.com/Free-Anger-Management-Classes.html

[Roshina]

It is a form of dishonesty to not paste the whole hadith. What you posted about abu bakr [r] and fadak is called tampering. That is not even how the hadith is mentioned in sahih albukhari. These are the actual ones. From the chapter "military expeditions led by the Prophet [s]"


Volume 5, Book 59, Number 368: Narrated 'Aisha:Fatima and Al'Abbas came to Abu Bakr, claiming their inheritance of the Prophet's land of Fadak and his share from Khaibar. Abu Bakr said, "I heard the Prophet saying, 'Our property is not inherited, and whatever we leave is to be given in charity. But the family of Muhammad can take their sustenance from this property.' By Allah, I would love to do good to the Kith and kin of Allah's Apostle rather than to my own Kith and kin."


Volume 5, Book 59, Number 546: Narrated 'Aisha:
Fatima the daughter of the Prophet sent someone to Abu Bakr (when he was a caliph), asking for her inheritance of what Allah's Apostle had left of the property bestowed on him by Allah from the Fai (i.e. booty gained without fighting) in Medina, and Fadak, and what remained of the Khumus of the Khaibar booty. On that, Abu Bakr said, "Allah's Apostle said, "Our property is not inherited. Whatever we leave, is Sadaqa, but the family of (the Prophet) Muhammad can eat of this property.' By Allah, I will not make any change in the state of the Sadaqa of Allah's Apostle and will leave it as it was during the lifetime of Allah's Apostle, and will dispose of it as Allah's Apostle used to do." So Abu Bakr refused to give anything of that to Fatima. So she became angry with Abu Bakr and kept away from him, and did not task to him till she died. She remained alive for six months after the death of the Prophet. When she died, her husband 'Ali, buried her at night without informing Abu Bakr and he said the funeral prayer by himself. When Fatima was alive, the people used to respect 'Ali much, but after her death, 'Ali noticed a change in the people's attitude towards him. So Ali sought reconciliation with Abu Bakr and gave him an oath of allegiance. 'Ali had not given the oath of allegiance during those months (i.e. the period between the Prophet's death and Fatima's death). 'Ali sent someone to Abu Bakr saying, "Come to us, but let nobody come with you," as he disliked that 'Umar should come, 'Umar said (to Abu Bakr), "No, by Allah, you shall not enter upon them alone " Abu Bakr said, "What do you think they will do to me? By Allah, I will go to them' So Abu Bakr entered upon them, and then 'Ali uttered Tashah-hud and said (to Abu Bakr), "We know well your superiority and what Allah has given you, and we are not jealous of the good what Allah has bestowed upon you, but you did not consult us in the question of the rule and we thought that we have got a right in it because of our near relationship to Allah's Apostle ."

Thereupon Abu Bakr's eyes flowed with tears. And when Abu Bakr spoke, he said, "By Him in Whose Hand my soul is to keep good relations with the relatives of Allah's Apostle is dearer to me than to keep good relations with my own relatives. But as for the trouble which arose between me and you about his property, I will do my best to spend it according to what is good, and will not leave any rule or regulation which I saw Allah's Apostle following, in disposing of it, but I will follow." On that 'Ali said to Abu Bakr, "I promise to give you the oath of allegiance in this after noon." So when Abu Bakr had offered the Zuhr prayer, he ascended the pulpit and uttered the Tashah-hud and then mentioned the story of 'Ali and his failure to give the oath of allegiance, and excused him, accepting what excuses he had offered; Then 'Ali (got up) and praying (to Allah) for forgiveness, he uttered Tashah-hud, praised Abu Bakr's right, and said, that he had not done what he had done because of jealousy of Abu Bakr or as a protest of that Allah had favored him with. 'Ali added, "But we used to consider that we too had some right in this affair (of rulership) and that he (i.e. Abu Bakr) did not consult us in this matter, and therefore caused us to feel sorry." On that all the Muslims became happy and said, "You have done the right thing." The Muslims then became friendly with 'Ali as he returned to what the people had done (i.e. giving the oath of allegiance to Abu Bakr).

What? None of these explain why Abu Bakr denied her her property, though. If he HAD given it to her, she wouldn't have been angry with him, as the exact same hadiths tell us.

Another member gave me the claims of someone else without any reference to hadith that Fatima was just sick, not angry :| But the hadiths pasted by even Sangar tell us that she was so angry with him she didn't talk to him until death.

I'm still not convinced. Keep trying, if that's what you're trying to do, brothers.

[Roshina]

A good friend of mine use to be a kaafir. THen he reverted to Islam. And then he went to these Islamic studies courses at the Uni. And now he is a kaafir again.

These institutions are designed to make people disbelieve in Islam.

Where did he go to school? Who were his professors? Which classes did he take? How much knowledge of Islam did he have PRIOR to entering these Islamic Studies courses?

Also, I know of people who have thoroughly studied Islam in Muslim countries and abandoned it upon discovering what they did about it. Then I know of others for whom the experience was the exact opposite: They started to appreciate Islam even more.

Then I have friends (not born Muslims) who have accepted Islam after studying it in western institutions, just as I have others who have rejected it after taking the same courses.

Conclusion? You can't generalize when it comes to experiences and people's responses to them. Each person is going to have a different experience.

And so what that your friend left Islam after studying it? Perhaps he realized it's not the best religion for him, just as some people convert to Islam believing it IS the best religion for them.

[Roshina]

She is not any an islamic intellectual or scholar,

that is correct! I have never, ever claimed to be an Islamic scholar or intellectual whatsoever. I have often emphasized that everyone should verify whatEVER I say so that they can make their OWN conclusions about it.

I'm not a scholar, and I do not have to be a scholar to talk on Islamic matters. However, I am studying Islam whether you like to believe it or not. I don't need your consent or approval, and if it's people like you, Azmatullah, Sangar, and MilitantMullah who are saying that what I'm learnin is not correct, I find myself utterly amused--if only you could imagine the smile on my face right now

Your opinions don't matter to me, just as mine shouldn't matter to you, brothers. So, move on.

she is a feminist in the west

Well, let's define feminist first. If a feminist is someone who acknowledges the universal mistreatment of women and takes action against it, then I'm certainly a feminist. I'm not sure how you define it, though. It'd be interesting to hear your definition.

who is studying the parts of islams related to women so that she can have points in arguements.

Several things in this comment of yours.
First, you seem to conclude that I HAVE "points in arguments" - which I believe is an excellent quality. Whether I actually have this or not is a different story, but I certainly thank you for thinking that I do!

Second, PARTS of Islam? Well, I can't think of anyone who studies ALL of Islam, lol. You really can't study ALL of Islam - that'd take more than one lifetime, you see. My focus tends to be on women and non-Muslims, and so that's what I'm studying. In general, however, I'm studying Islamic law, under which are the "categories" of women and non-Muslims... and, do you notice, there are no categories of "MEN's rights in Islam" :O One wonders why, huh.

Third, in the west. Yes -- in the west. And why? I JUST explained that in a thread I opened just a minute ago. Here's the link, and it's called "Doing Islamic Studies in the West." It's particularly for you, Sangar, and the rest who are intimidated by the idea of studying Islam in the west.

She is not studying or researching islam to seek guidance and spirtuality.

There are many, many, many different reasons people study Islam. I don't study just Islam; I study others as well (mostly Hinduism, Christianity, and Judaism, not others at the moment) -- it's so that I can confirm my own faith in Islam. This is *my* reason. And you have absolutely NO right and NO reason to conclude that I'm not studying Islam for any spiritual purposes or to seek guidance. If I passed judgment (which I sometimes wish I did, really; they help in times like these), I would tell you that you're being very un-Islamic for saying this because your such a biased conclusion can be interpreted as suspicion, and we know the Quran tells us to avoid suspicion.

Nonetheless, how do you define "spirituality"? I have learned something about myself during the last few years of my studying Islam: When I was an extremist Muslim (and, before that, a typical Muslim who got headaches every time someone challenged her (weak) faith), I was far, far, far from being spiritual. Now, my relationship with God has become so strong that I FEEL God inside and outside of me. I can QUESTION God without feeling like I'm doing something wrong. I'd love to go more into my concept of God and my relationship with God, but you most likely won't understand because you think that the ONLY reason a person should study Islam is to be spiritual -- and I obviously disagree.

However, if you must know, the reason I'm studying Islam is so that we can help shape the crooked Muslim world. Everyone agrees that no Muslim country today is actually "Islamic." Perhaps you disagree that I'm helping at all, but I dread what your definition of "helping Muslims" must be, and, knowing your mentality, I'd rather take the exact opposite path than you recommend.

What i dont understand is that all the time she attacks and criticise islam, there is not a single occasion where she has stood to defend it, what kind of islamic studies, is she studying?

The reason for my always standing up to "criticize" Islam, as you say, is so that people like YOU, Sangar, MilitantMullah, Azmatullah, and your supporters will actually start LEARNING Islam. Honestly speaking, I don't think you would have gone to research the material on Islam we have discussed so far.

My own faith has been confirmed by me, and I, too, was challenged and it led to my gaining a deeper understanding of Islam that I KNOW I would not have achieved otherwise. And I *know* that there are Muslims out there who read our posts and actually for one question their beliefs and hopefully start studying instead of believing blindly. If they don't, then so be it. I don't believe in force, so people can beleive whatEVER they want to believe. For me, the best way to learn is to be challenged. It pushes me to research.

[Roshina]

Some things I'd like to say before I continue responding to anyone's messages here:

When you wanna "debate" with me on matters of Islam, keep some things in mind:

- If your aim is to prove me wrong, you will NOT succeed -- I simply won't let you, and those who know me on this forum know this about me. If it's supposed to be a competition between us, I will make sure I win, and I'm sure you don't want that. And believe me you, we will get NOWHERE with such an imbecilic goal in mind.

- The purpose of the "debate" should be to learn from each other and *understand* each other's views, not to win each other over.

- IF you wanna have a "debate" with me, you MUST have learned Islam from many different angles and not just the ahl-e-hadith. You MUST know the arguments of the ahl-e-Qurans, for instance, and you MUST know what person A did what she/he did and WHY most Muslims are against it (e.g., Amina Wadud). If you don't, then make no mistake: I will not respond to your call for a "debate." [[I note this is the case here, which tempts me to just ignore what you folks are saying here. For more information, you may check out my reason for WHY it's necessary to study Islam from more than one angle at this thread.]]

- I don't call for debates. Period. I'm on PF to learn whatever I can and to share whatever I think needs to be shared. If you're not happy with this, live with it or just move on.

Other points I'd like to make are ...

Every single thing that’s being discussed here has already been discussed in other threads, or at least threads are opened for them.

For God’s existence, check out the thread "Does God Exist?"

For Islamic law/Sharia, you may visit two threads:

1- "Questions on Islam, Sharia, ..."
2- "Universal Islamic Declaration of Human Rights"

For women: "Women in Islam."

Also, I recommend each member here to first know the etiquette of debate. (I know, I know, I myself need to learn them as well, but we can all learn together, no biggie.) Here’s the link for that: "Etiquette of Debate."

There’s no point in creating new threads when there are already some available under the exact same topics. Someone else here, Aseer wror, thought that he would “debate” with me about religion, and I willingly accepted. It was extreme disappointment because he ended up handing it over to another person who joined the discussion. That thread, too, is all about Islam. It's called "Qrratugai vs Aseer." (I don't like "vs" titles at all; they give the wrong message.)

@ Dinosaur Khan (or Jodigul, as you were formerly known as), you and I have had “debates” on other religious topics, and you did not show any signs of knowing what you were talking about. Sorry to have to say this, but it is really frustrating when someone doesn’t know what they’re talking about and “challenge” people to a “debate,” whatever the latter means.

No one here is a scholar, of course, but do we HAVE to be scholars to talk about Islam? Well, you might have to, but I don't.

Sangara, as I’ve said in another thread (and I'm pasting from the thread on Islamic Studies in the West), you think there’s only ONE form of Islam and there’s only ONE way of STUDYING Islam – absolutely untrue, to both. How can I discuss Islam with someone who thinks his way of learning it is superior to other people’s way of studying Islam? You said in another thread that you’re being accused of an extremist or something, but I wonder … what else do you expect when you are SO totally convinced that everyone should study Islam in a madrasa/mosque the way you’re doing, and use the resources that YOU are using? (Of course, I don't MIND using the same resources you're using, but I REFUSE to confine myself to those alone; I have absolutely no boundaries in my learning. I want to even know what anti-Muslims/anti-Islam people have to say about Islam. To me, those views weigh as much as Taliban's views do, which weigh as much as new converts' views.)

So, yeah, if that's what you want me to do, I must say ... No way! May God prevent me from ever even IMAGINING walking on the same path as yours! Aameen.
Peace!

[Roshina]

And btw. In shiaism. Women do not inherit land.

Absolutely untrue.

In Shiism, *uncles* get absolutely nothing from the children of the deceased father. Daughters get FULL inheritance as opposed to the Sunni belief that daughters must divide it between uncles.

I have no reference for this at the moment, but I will soon when I go home, ka khaire.

Still, I'd like to ask you to PROVE to us that in Shiism, women don't get inheritance in land.

And what makes you think that Shiites are not Islamic in their practices of inheritance? They follow what the Quran literally tells them to, which both they and Sunnis agree on. So I'm not sure where you get that from.

The differences between Shiites and Sunnis mostly tend to be in the exegetical sense--i.e., in commentaries and whatnot -- NOT in the literal text of the Quran. Both Sunnis and Shiites use the exact same Quran, the exact same verses, but they just interpret it differently. However, the two branches don't accept the same hadiths as authentic. There are some they agree on, but others no.