Qrratugai/leavanay zalmay vs Dinosaur khan.

[MazloomyarMaseed]

I am with you. However, I do not have high expectations from Qrratugai. Especially since I saw her replies to the ahlul sunnah wa al jam'ah thread I made. I think she usally just keeps arguing for the sake of argument rather than re-examining them in the light of the critique posed to them.

You mean Sanger is immitated by an Woman who has out classed him,you wahabis always think woman should be mentally lower than your already retarded view of life.

[Admin Khan]

You mean Sanger is immitated by an Woman who has out classed him,you wahabis always think woman should be mentally lower than your already retarded view of life.

Please refrain from insulting our members.

[Dinosaur Khan]

Firstly, you're ASSUMING I don't believe in God. And I do... though, as I've said elsewhere, our UNDERSTANDING of God is most likely very different, and i conclude this from the sort of things you say and the sort of things I say.

Secondly, I thought you were going to prove me and Laevany Zalmay wrong in this thread ... Zalmay doesn't believe in God. How are you gonna prove him wrong?

Thirdly, I, too, am using MY intellect, MY understanding, MY faculty to believe what I believe and say what I say. Zalmay, too, is using the same. Yet, all of us have different beliefs. How's this? So, if you're trying to say that because you THINK about your beliefs and that's why we should agree with you (I said IFFF you think this), then that makes no sense to me, 'cause I, too, think about mine. It's not like I woke up one morning and said, "ALL RIGHT! God exists!" or "Okay! I don't believe this anymore!"

We're humans. We think, we learn, we share, we teach, we change, we grow, and we change even more.

Yes, we know you believe this. Now, try expounding on each one. Prove them. And as far as women are concerned, what exactly do you define as "best religion"? I don't doubt that NO religion that came before the 19th century sees women as equal partners of their men counterparts, but when you say "the best for women," it implies that IF Islam is bad, then all the others are even worse. See, THAT, I don't like.

And we've already talked on the punishments in Islam... one of my focuses tends to be on those who leave Islam. Why should they be killed? And, please, don't say, "Well, in other religions, it's no better! they're to be BURNT when they leave other religions!"

No, two wrongs don't make a right. If it's wrong in one, it's wrong in the others, too. But why kill apostates? (Note: This punishment for apostasy is NOT in the Quran.)

So, where do you wanna go with this? You wanna prove God exists? Go ahead. I think you'll be doing the world a huuuuuuuuuge favor, trust me. People have been debating this since human evolved into what she/he is today!

levanay doesnt believe in God, my first point is specifically directed to him.
This world and vast universe is creation...
At the night when i look into sky, i find innumerable stars. Sun is also star and it has solar system in which 8 planets revolves around the sun. Planets have moons revolving around them. Billions of stars make a galaxy and there are billions of galaxies. All these stars and galaxies are moving e.g sun is moving from the centre of its galaxy at the rate of 20 km/sec. The points is that frequecy and speed of each revolution of a moon, planet and star around its axis is always constant with no difference of second. Amazing, is'nt? no star clashes with another star....why? Are these stars move and revolve on its own and randomely? Why these stars are in such discipline? Why stars are not colliding with each other...who is providing centripetal force for stars and planets to move around their axis?
Consider a stone attached at the end of string , dinosaur khan is revolving this string attached to stone above his head. I am the central axis, and stone is revolving around me like a moon revolving around earth....when qrattu will ask heathen that who is causing this stone revolving, heathen will say that it is dinosaur khan... So guys think about solar system, stars, galaxies...some one is regulating and controlling all this system...such complex yet regulated universe can not be created on its own...if universe is creation then it must have a creator, call it God , allah or ishwar.
Let suppose dinosaur khan is an alien, he visits earth and the first thing that he see is a tea cup. He wonder what is it?
Then he wonders how it came into existence. He thinks of two probabilities
a) it automatically came into existence
b) some one has made it
like athiests he assumes that it must have created on its own.
But then he thinks that why it is created?
He has no answer for it but he assumes it must have some purpose as it has regular shape.
Then another question arise in his mind, if it is created on its own then why it has specific shape, what the purpose and function of tea cup? He discards the previous assumption and make a hypothesis that there is some one who has made this tea cup. In the mean while a human appears, takes the tea cup and fills it with tea and the drink it. It automatically clicks to alien that tea cup has a use and purpose, for serving a purpose, it is created by human to use it as source to contain tea. Human is the creator of tea cup.
Now like alien thinks who is the creator of humans, earth and whole universe?

..leavanay zalmay and qrratu, you both are invited to counter my above post.

[inqilab]

Um... if i'ts a Shiite fabrication, then why does it appear in Sunni hadiths? Check out, for instance, Sahih Bukhari:

Allah's Apostle said, "Our property is not inherited. Whatever we leave, is Sadaqa, but the family of (the Prophet) Muhammad can eat of this property.' By Allah, I will not make any change in the state of the Sadaqa of Allah's Apostle and will leave it as it was during the lifetime of Allah's Apostle, and will dispose of it as Allah's Apostle used to do.

- Sahih Bukhari, Volume 5, Book 59, Number 546.

Last I checked, both Bukhari and Muslim were Sunni sources.

I will answer your fadak claims in separate posts.

It is a form of dishonesty to not paste the whole hadith. What you posted about abu bakr [r] and fadak is called tampering. That is not even how the hadith is mentioned in sahih albukhari. These are the actual ones. From the chapter "military expeditions led by the Prophet [s]"


Volume 5, Book 59, Number 368: Narrated 'Aisha:Fatima and Al'Abbas came to Abu Bakr, claiming their inheritance of the Prophet's land of Fadak and his share from Khaibar. Abu Bakr said, "I heard the Prophet saying, 'Our property is not inherited, and whatever we leave is to be given in charity. But the family of Muhammad can take their sustenance from this property.' By Allah, I would love to do good to the Kith and kin of Allah's Apostle rather than to my own Kith and kin."


Volume 5, Book 59, Number 546: Narrated 'Aisha:
Fatima the daughter of the Prophet sent someone to Abu Bakr (when he was a caliph), asking for her inheritance of what Allah's Apostle had left of the property bestowed on him by Allah from the Fai (i.e. booty gained without fighting) in Medina, and Fadak, and what remained of the Khumus of the Khaibar booty. On that, Abu Bakr said, "Allah's Apostle said, "Our property is not inherited. Whatever we leave, is Sadaqa, but the family of (the Prophet) Muhammad can eat of this property.' By Allah, I will not make any change in the state of the Sadaqa of Allah's Apostle and will leave it as it was during the lifetime of Allah's Apostle, and will dispose of it as Allah's Apostle used to do." So Abu Bakr refused to give anything of that to Fatima. So she became angry with Abu Bakr and kept away from him, and did not task to him till she died. She remained alive for six months after the death of the Prophet. When she died, her husband 'Ali, buried her at night without informing Abu Bakr and he said the funeral prayer by himself. When Fatima was alive, the people used to respect 'Ali much, but after her death, 'Ali noticed a change in the people's attitude towards him. So Ali sought reconciliation with Abu Bakr and gave him an oath of allegiance. 'Ali had not given the oath of allegiance during those months (i.e. the period between the Prophet's death and Fatima's death). 'Ali sent someone to Abu Bakr saying, "Come to us, but let nobody come with you," as he disliked that 'Umar should come, 'Umar said (to Abu Bakr), "No, by Allah, you shall not enter upon them alone " Abu Bakr said, "What do you think they will do to me? By Allah, I will go to them' So Abu Bakr entered upon them, and then 'Ali uttered Tashah-hud and said (to Abu Bakr), "We know well your superiority and what Allah has given you, and we are not jealous of the good what Allah has bestowed upon you, but you did not consult us in the question of the rule and we thought that we have got a right in it because of our near relationship to Allah's Apostle ."

Thereupon Abu Bakr's eyes flowed with tears. And when Abu Bakr spoke, he said, "By Him in Whose Hand my soul is to keep good relations with the relatives of Allah's Apostle is dearer to me than to keep good relations with my own relatives. But as for the trouble which arose between me and you about his property, I will do my best to spend it according to what is good, and will not leave any rule or regulation which I saw Allah's Apostle following, in disposing of it, but I will follow." On that 'Ali said to Abu Bakr, "I promise to give you the oath of allegiance in this after noon." So when Abu Bakr had offered the Zuhr prayer, he ascended the pulpit and uttered the Tashah-hud and then mentioned the story of 'Ali and his failure to give the oath of allegiance, and excused him, accepting what excuses he had offered; Then 'Ali (got up) and praying (to Allah) for forgiveness, he uttered Tashah-hud, praised Abu Bakr's right, and said, that he had not done what he had done because of jealousy of Abu Bakr or as a protest of that Allah had favored him with. 'Ali added, "But we used to consider that we too had some right in this affair (of rulership) and that he (i.e. Abu Bakr) did not consult us in this matter, and therefore caused us to feel sorry." On that all the Muslims became happy and said, "You have done the right thing." The Muslims then became friendly with 'Ali as he returned to what the people had done (i.e. giving the oath of allegiance to Abu Bakr).

[inqilab]

As we can see. You deliberately tampered with the ahadith from sahih albukhari so it can suite your agenda. This is very wrong and dishonest. It ruins your credibility.

[inqilab]

I will post about sahih almuslim next

[inqilab]

and SahihMuslim:
“...So Abu Bakr refused to hand over anything from it to Fatima who got angry with Abu Bakr for this reason. She forsook him and did not talk to him until the end of her life.”
- Sahih Muslim, Book 19, Number 4352

From sahih almuslim.

Book 019, Number 4352:
It is narrated on the authority of Urwa b. Zubair who narrated from A'isha that she informed him that Fatima, daughter of the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him), sent someone to Abu Bakr to demand from him her share of the legacy left by the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) from what Allah had bestowed upon him at Medina and Fadak and what was left from one-filth of the income (annually received) from Khaibar. Abu Bakr said: The Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) said:" We (prophets) do not have any heirs; what we leave behind is (to be given in) charity." The household of the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) will live on the income from these properties, but, by Allah, I will not change the charity of the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) from the condition in which it was in his own time. I will do the same with it as the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upun him) himself used to do. So Abu Bakr refused to hand over anything from it to Fatima who got angry with Abu Bakr for this reason. She forsook him and did not talk to him until the end of her life. She lived for six months after the death of the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him). When she died, her husband. 'Ali b. Abu Talib, buried her at night. He did not inform Abu Bakr about her death and offered the funeral prayer over her himself. During the lifetime of Fatima, 'All received (special) regard from the people. After she had died, he felt estrangement in the faces of the people towards him. So he sought to make peace with Abu Bakr and offer his allegiance to him. He had not yet owed allegiance to him as Caliph during these months. He sent a person to Abu Bakr requesting him to visit him unaccompanied by anyone (disapproving the presence of Umar). 'Umar said to Abu Bakr: BY Allah, you will not visit them alone. Abu Bakr said: What will they do to me? By Allah, I will visit them. And he did pay them a visit alone. 'All recited Tashahhud (as it is done in the beginning of a religious sermon) ; then said: We recognise your moral excellence and what Allah has bestowed upon you. We do not envy the favour (i. e. the Catiphate) which Allah nas conferred upon you; but you have done it (assumed the position of Caliph) alone (without consulting us), and we thought we had a right (to be consulted) on account of our kinship with the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him). He continued to talk to Abu Bakr (in this vein) until the latter's eyes welled up with tears. Then Abd Bakr spoke and said: By Allah, in Whose Hand is my life, the kinship of the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) is dearer to me than the kinship of my own people. As regards the dispute that has arisen between you and me about these properties, I have not deviated from the right course and I have not given up doing about them what the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) used to do. So 'Ali said to Abu Bakr: This aftetnoon is (fixed) for (swearing) allegiance (to you). So when Abu Bakr had finished his Zuhr prayer, he ascended the pulpit and recited Tashahhud, and described the status of 'Ali, his delay in swearing allegiance and the excuse which lie had offered to him (for this delay). (After this) he asked for God's forgiveness. Then 'Ali b. Abu Talib recited the Tashahhud. extolled the merits of Abu Bakr and (said that) his action was nott prompted by any jealousy of Abu Bakr on his part or his refusal to accept the high position which Allah had conferred upon him, (adding: ) But we were of the opinion that we should have a share in the government, but the matter had been decided without taking us into confidence, and this displeased us. (Hence the delay in offering allegiance. The Muslims were pleased with this (explanation) and they said: You have done the right thing. The Muslims were (again) favourably inclined to 'Ali since he adopted the proper course of action.

Book 019, Number 4353:
It has been narrated on the authority of 'A'isha that Fatima and 'Abbas approached Abu Bakr, soliciting transfer of the legacy of the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) to them. At that time, they were demanding his (Holy Prophet's) lands at Fadak and his share from Khaibar. Abu Bakr said to them: I have heard from the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him). Then he quoted the hadith having nearly the same meaning as the one which has been narrated by Uqail on the authority of al-Zuhri (and which his gone before) except that in his version he said: Then 'Ali stood up, extolled the merits of Abu Bakr mentioned his superiority, and his earlier acceptance of Islam. Then he walked to Abu Bakr and swore allegiance to him. (At this) people turned towards 'Ali and said: you have done the right thing. And they became favourably inclined to 'Ali after he had adopted the proper course of action.

[inqilab]

These ahadith are very clear. Fadak did not belong to fatima [r] in the first place. So she was wrong in her demands.

And i had asked shias many times. Why did not ali[r] take fadak when he became the caliph? Bc abu bakr [r] was right. And fatima [r] was wrong.

[inqilab]

And btw. In shiaism. Women do not inherit land.

[inqilab]

And in shia ahadith books as narrated by alajlisi’s haq ul yaqeen as well as in altusi’s amali,

"When fatima asked for fadak from abu bakr and he refused to give it to her, she returned full of anger that could not be described and she was sick; and she was angry with ali because he refused to help her."

[شمله ور خراساني]

Mullah sahib,

poor girl is taught to reject the whole story and emphasize on void arguments from deviants.

This is what they call unbiased analysis at Islamic studies courses at non-Muslim universities.

[Azmatullah]

Don't take anything from this Qurattugai when it comes to Islam. It does seem that she is intentionally spreading lies and misinformation to suit her ownself, and misguide others at the same time.

[Dinosaur Khan]

She is not any an islamic intellectual or scholar, she is a feminist in the west who is studying the parts of islams related to women so that she can have points in arguements.

She is not studying or researching islam to seek guidance and spirtuality.
What i dont understand is that all the time she attacks and criticise islam, there is not a single occasion where she has stood to defend it, what kind of islamic studies, is she studying?

[شمله ور خراساني]

She is not any an islamic intellectual or scholar, she is a feminist in the west who is studying the parts of islams related to women so that she can have points in arguements.

She is not studying or researching islam to seek guidance and spirtuality.
What i dont understand is that all the time she attacks and criticise islam, there is not a single occasion where she has stood to defend it, what kind of islamic studies, is she studying?

A good friend of mine use to be a kaafir. THen he reverted to Islam. And then he went to these Islamic studies courses at the Uni. And now he is a kaafir again.

These institutions are designed to make people disbelieve in Islam.

[MazloomyarMaseed]

A good friend of mine use to be a kaafir. THen he reverted to Islam. And then he went to these Islamic studies courses at the Uni. And now he is a kaafir again.

These institutions are designed to make people disbelieve in Islam.

Who makes you call others Kaffir...Look at your own damme self man!

Your such a lunatic, IAm sick of you calling people kaffirs as if your the messiah from the heavens above, your a Nuisence!

If these courses are against Islam then WHAT ARE YOU DOING IN HOLLAND! go to Afghanistan and attend a university there, where you can educate other Afghans about ISI and your love for them