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  • Becoming a Physician : $230,000 in debt

    Dear Washington, D.C.:
    +


    I am writing this letter because I feel that our leaders and lawmakers do not have an accurate picture of what it actually entails to become a physician today; specifically, the financial, intellectual, social, mental, and physical demands of the profession. This is an opinion that is shared among many of my colleagues. Because of these concerns, I would like to personally relate my own story. My story discusses what it took to mold, educate, and train a young Midwestern boy from modest roots to become an outstanding physician, who is capable of taking care of any medical issues that may plague your own family, friends, or colleagues.
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    I grew up in the suburbs of southeast Michigan in a middle-class family. My father is an engineer at General Motors and my mother is a Catholic school administrator in my hometown. My family worked hard and sacrificed much to enroll me in a private Catholic elementary school in a small town in Michigan. I thought I wanted to be a doctor in fifth grade based on my love of science and the idea of wanting to help others despite no extended family members involved in medicine. Winning a science fair project about the circulatory system in sixth grade really piqued my interest in the field. Throughout high school, I took several science courses that again reinforced my interest and enthusiasm towards the field of medicine. I then enrolled at St. Louis University to advance my training for a total of eight years of intense education, including undergraduate and medical school. The goal was to prepare me to take care of sick patients and to save the lives of others (four years of undergraduate premedical studies and four years of medical school). After graduation from medical school at age 26, I then pursued training in internal medicine at the University of Michigan, which was a three-year program where I learned to manage complex problems associated with internal organs, including the heart, lungs, gastrointestinal tract, kidneys and others. I then went on to pursue an additional three years of specialty medical training (fellowship) in the field of gastroenterology. The completion of that program culminated 14 years of post-high school education. It was as that point, at the tender age of 32 and searching for my first job, that I could say that my career in medicine began.
    +


    Over that 14-year period of training, I, and many others like me, made tremendous sacrifices. Only now, as I sit with my laptop in the dead of night, with the sounds of my children sleeping, can I look back and see where my journey began.
    +


    For me, it began in college, taking rigorous pre-medical courses against a large yearly burden of tuition: $27,000 of debt yearly for four years. I was one of the fortunate ones. Because I excelled in a competitive academic environment in high school and was able to maintain a position in the top tier of my class, I obtained an academic scholarship, covering 70% of this tuition. I was fortunate to have graduated from college with “only” $25,000 in student debt. Two weeks after finishing my undergraduate education, I began medical school. After including books, various exams that would typically cost $1,000-$3,000 per test, and medical school tuition, my yearly education costs amounted to $45,000 per year. Unlike most other fields of study, the demands of medical school education, with daytime classes and nighttime studying, make it nearly impossible to hold down an extra source of income. I spent an additional $5,000 in my final year for application fees and interview travel as I sought a residency position in internal medicine. After being “matched” into a residency position in Michigan, I took out yet another $10,000 loan to relocate and pay for my final expenses in medical school, as moving expenses are not paid for by training programs.
    +


    At that point, with medical school completed, I was only halfway through my journey to becoming a doctor. I recall a moment then, sitting with a group of students in a room with a financial advisor who was saying something about how to consolidate loans. I stared meekly at numbers on a piece of paper listing what I owed for the two degrees that I had earned, knowing full well that I didn’t yet have the ability to earn a dime. I didn’t know whether to cry at the number or be happy that mine was lower than most of my friends. My number was $196,000.
    +


    $196,000. That was the bill, for the tuition, the tests, the books, the late-night pizza. $196,000 financed through a combination of student loans, personal loans, and high-interest credit cards, now consolidated, amalgamated, homogenized into one life-defining number for my personal convenience.
    +


    I then relocated to Michigan and moved into a small condo in Ann Arbor, where I started my residency. As a resident in internal medicine, I earned a salary of $39,000. All the while, interest continued to accrue on my motherlode of debt at the rate of $6,000 per year due to the high-debt burden. Paying down this debt was not possible while raising two children. My wife began working, but her meager salary as a teacher was barely enough to cover daycare costs. During residency, my costs for taking licensing examinations, interviewing for specialty training positions, and interest on the large loan ballooned my debt further, now exceeding $230,000, all before I began my career as a “real doctor.”
    +


    Relatives and friends often ask me, “Now that you are a ‘real’ doctor, aren’t you making the big bucks?” While I am fortunate to now be making a higher salary, some basics of finance make my salary significantly less than meets the eye (here’s a very in-depth article on how this is so). First, I was 32 years old as I began training and I now had over $230,000 in debt. Had I invested my talents in other pursuits such as law school, I would not have built up this level of debt. Also, as I did not start saving when I was younger, financially speaking, I have lost the past 10 years without the ability to save and invest to earn compounding interest. In addition, as physicians, though we make more money than many others, we are not reimbursed for many of the services that we provide. We, as physicians, are always available for our patients no matter the time of day. We do not record time spent with patients as a means to our reimbursement as other professions do. No, we listen to patients and answer their questions, however long it may take. Even if it is the 30-second straight hour of work, which happens very often, we listen, respond, and formulate a logical plan. If it involves calling a patient at home after I just worked 30 hours in a row and just walked in the door to see my family, I do it. I never come “home” from work. As physicians, we are always available, and have to respond in an intellectual way using the $230,000 rigorous education that we received. And if we don’t do our work well, we don’t just lose business, but we can lose our livelihood through lawsuits.
    +


    You may ask why do we do all of this? It’s because we have pride in what we do. We truly care for the well-being of the human race. We have been conditioned to think, act, talk, and work as a very efficient machine, able to handle emotions, different cultures, different ranges of intellect, all to promote the health of America. We are doctors.
    +


    In reading this letter, one may think that one has to sacrifice a significant amount to become a great physician. You may think we face physical and mental stress that is unparalleled. You may begin to think that doctors not only have to be smart, but they have to know how to communicate with others during very emotional times. You may think that we must face adversity well and must develop very rough skin to handle all walks of life, especially when dealing with sickness and death on a daily basis.
    +


    Now that you see this additional aspect to our career, you may think that we have a tough job to tackle several tasks at once, demanding much versatility. You may think someone needs a great work ethic to do what we do. You must think that not only do we have to know science extremely well, we also have to know other areas such as writing, history, math, even law given the multiple calculations we go through in our heads on a daily basis and conversations we have with families. And finally, you must think we know finance, as we have to try balance a $230,000 loan while making $50,000 at age 30.
    +


    Now imagine, if you would, having $230,00 dollars in debt with two young children at age 30 and listening to the news with lawmakers saying that doctors are “rich” and should have their pay cut. Or that “studies show that doctors lack empathy.”
    +


    Unfortunately, we physicians do not have much of a voice on Capitol Hill. There are not enough doctors in Washington, D.C., who can give the insight of this letter while you in Washington, D.C., discuss healthcare reform. You may hear from leaders of the American Medical Association, but these are not the doctors on the front lines. These are the older political voices who were physicians when the times were different, when doctors did get reimbursed fairly for their work, when student loan debt was not this high, and when lawsuits were less prevalent. Many of the loudest voices in the healthcare debate are those of lawyers and lobbyists for special interests. They do not care about the well being of patients; that is what doctors do.
    1


    I want to make it clear that this letter is not just another story about the difficulties of becoming a doctor and being successful in medicine. I do not want you to think I am complaining about how hard my life is and used to be. In fact, I love my job and there is no other field I would ever imagine myself doing. My true wish is to illustrate the sacrifices doctors do make because I feel we are not represented when laws are made. These sacrifices include a lack of quality family time, our large student loan debt, the age at which we can practically start saving for retirement, and the pressure we face with lawyers watching every move we make. Yet we make these sacrifices gladly for the good of our patients.
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    I want to challenge our leaders to address the points I have made in this letter, keeping in mind that this is an honest firsthand account of the personal life of a newly practicing physician. It is a letter that speaks for almost all physicians in America and our struggles on our arduous yet personally rewarding life. It is not just a letter of my own journey, but one that represents most physicians’ path on our way to caring for America’s sick.
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    You may ask how I had the time to write this letter? As I’m sure many of you do, I made time. It is now 3 a.m. on my only day off this month. I considered this a priority. I hope you feel the same. I just finished my 87-hour week. Time for a short rest.
    +


    A version of this piece first appeared at Caduceusblog.com. We welcome your comments at ideas@qz.com.
    Even Adobe Photoshop can't change me.

    A line[Durrand line] of hatred that raised a wall between the two brothers -Hamid Karzai

    For generations, the Hindus of India prayed for deliverance from "the venom of the cobra, the teeth of the tiger and the vengeance of the Afghan."


    The men of Kábul and Khilj also went home; and whenever they were questioned about the Musulmáns of the Kohistán (the mountains), and how matters stood there, they said, "Don't call it Kohistán, but Afghánistán; for there is nothing there but Afgháns and disturbances." Thus it is clear that for this reason the people of the country call their home in their own language Afghánistán, and themselves Afgháns. The people of India call them Patán; but the reason for this is not known. But it occurs to me, that when, under the rule of Muhammadan sovereigns, Musulmáns first came to the city of Patná, and dwelt there, the people of India (for that reason) called them Patáns—but God knows!

    -Ferishta, 1560–1620

  • #2
    [MENTION=1772]BarakzaiAbdali[/MENTION] why are over half of all Physicians miserable and unhappy with their career path?


    Nearly half of all doctors in the United States regret their career path as pay cuts and student loans bite





    A combination of falling pay and student debts mean that half of all doctors in the United States would not choose medicine as their career path given their time over a new survey has revealed.

    Dissatisfaction among the nations physicians is increasing according to new Medscape findings, with just 56 percent of doctors surveyed admitting they do not regret entering medicine.

    This contrasts with last years findings which showed 69 percent of doctors confirming they had no complaints with their profession.

    Underpaid and Regretful: Just over half of all physicians (54%) would choose medicine again as a career according to a new Medscape survey

    With overall pay for doctors down 10 percent on 2011 and student debts crippling some physicians, the Medscape survey was conducted nationwide from a pool of 24,000 doctors and health care professionals in 25 medical specialties.

    With President Obama's healthcare reform still working through the system, many doctors feel that the only way to survive is within larger hospital sized institutions rather than independent practices.


    More...



    'Physicians' sense of worry may be greater than the reality, but it's understandable,' said Judy Aburmishan, CPA, a partner in FGMK, LLC in Chicago, a firm that represents physicians and other healthcare providers.

    'Hospitals are buying up private practices both in primary care and the specialties. The heavy-handed message they send out is that if you don't join us, you won't survive. There is great uncertainty and fear about what healthcare reform will mean for physicians once it's fully implemented.'

    Pediatricians are some of the lowest paid of the 25 medical specialties surveyed by Medscape

    Dermatologists were the most positive about their specialty but are less satisfied than in last year's survey. Plastic surgeons were the least happy about their practices; only 41% said they were satisfied overall, compared with 66% who were satisfied in last year’s report.

    'The doctors I work with are unhappier than ever,' said Aburmishan.

    'The ones thinking about retirement don't know if the money will be there for them because of declining revenue fears and investment losses over the past few years.

    'They fear that the government and insurers will increasingly tell them how to practice. Younger doctors are afraid that they won't be able to pay off medical school debt as fast as they expected.'

    And interestingly it is cosmetic surgeons who have been hit hardest in the economic downturn.

    Television shows such as E.R have highlighted the high level of student debt that doctors graduate with

    'The elective side of plastic surgery has been hit hard by the economy, so plastic surgeons are making less than they did in better times,' said Tommy Bohannon, Divisional Vice President of Hospital-Based Recruiting for Merritt Hawkins, a physician-recruiting company.

    While claims of poverty from the nation's doctors when over eight percent of the workforce are unemployed may fall on deaf ears, according to the survey, doctors are not as well off as many believe.

    Only 11 percent of physicians consider themselves to be rich, while 45 percent of those interviewed state that their incomes are no better than that of many non-physicians.

    The number of physicians taking up family medicine is falling due to the low pay and excessive hours according to the Medscape survey

    The other 44 percent of doctors surveyed claimed that, 'My income probably qualifies me as rich, but I have so many debts and expenses that I don't feel rich.'

    According to the Association of American Medical Colleges, young doctors who graduated from medical school last year had an average debt of $158,000.

    And nearly one third of students owed more than $200,000 and that number is set to increase with interest over 25 to 30 years.

    Another point of frustration for the doctors surveyed was the large disparity in earnings among medical professionals.

    The top earning fields of medicine in 2012 were the same as 2011, although with a year-on-year 10 percent drop.

    Radiologists and orphopedic surgeons topped out with a mean income of $315,000 swiftly followed by cardiologists on $314,000 and anesthesiologists on $309,000.

    Physicians such as cardiologist Magdi Yacoub are some of the highest earners in the Medscape survey bringing home on average $314,000

    However, specialties with the most members such as pediatrics, ($156,000) and family medicine ($158,000) remained the lowest paid among qualified physicians.

    Commentators though, see the market correcting this disparity, as the number of students deterred from becoming a primary care physician grows, so therefore does the need to make the role more attractive.

    'Due to the physician shortage in primary care, their incomes should be increasing,' said Bohannon.

    'There's strong pressure to recruit primary care doctors. Hiring entities, such as large groups and hospitals, realise that primary care physicians are the ones who make referrals to specialists and fuel the system.'

    Another sore point for doctors was the gender gap that still exists within the medical specialties.

    Prof. Sir Magdi Yacoub, heart surgeon, with Chain of Hope charity in Jamaica

    Male doctors across all specialities earn about 40 percent more than female doctors and in primary care they earn 23 percent more.

    'The income gap is closing in primary care as well," said Bohannon. 'Many women doctors choose to work fewer hours for quality-of-life reasons.'

    'But that's true of younger male doctors as well. That's why the disparity in income will narrow.'

    Location matters too for the salary scale of doctors as physicians in the North Central region of the United States have testified.

    'In Chicago, for example, the supply of orthopedic surgeons is huge,' said Judy Aburmishan.

    'If you go to Springfield, there aren't that many orthopedists. So insurers have to pay better to make sure patients are covered.'

    Read more:

    Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...#ixzz2jgZy056u
    Follow us: @MailOnline on Twitter | DailyMail on Facebook


    Nearly half of all doctors in the United States regret their career path as pay cuts and student loans bite | Mail Online
    Even Adobe Photoshop can't change me.

    A line[Durrand line] of hatred that raised a wall between the two brothers -Hamid Karzai

    For generations, the Hindus of India prayed for deliverance from "the venom of the cobra, the teeth of the tiger and the vengeance of the Afghan."


    The men of Kábul and Khilj also went home; and whenever they were questioned about the Musulmáns of the Kohistán (the mountains), and how matters stood there, they said, "Don't call it Kohistán, but Afghánistán; for there is nothing there but Afgháns and disturbances." Thus it is clear that for this reason the people of the country call their home in their own language Afghánistán, and themselves Afgháns. The people of India call them Patán; but the reason for this is not known. But it occurs to me, that when, under the rule of Muhammadan sovereigns, Musulmáns first came to the city of Patná, and dwelt there, the people of India (for that reason) called them Patáns—but God knows!

    -Ferishta, 1560–1620

    Comment


    • #3
      The other day i read they get even upto 20k dollars in the USA.

      Well we rather believe more in helping the humanity than to earn :P ,Hence not our concern
      "[B][SIZE="3"]Seer Speen Wazeer[/SIZE][/B]"

      Comment


      • #4
        I think this is the sort of "Grass is greener on the other side" part of medicine.

        Things also very with specialty. GI docs actually live a pretty nice life. The general trend used to be that within internal medicine subspecialties cardiology was the most competitive. GI has usurped this position because lifestyle is somewhat better. If a person is having a heart attack in the middle of the night there are no options in most situations except to intervene. In the GI world the joke is that you can always keep up with the blood losses of the gut with transfusions and do the colonoscopy the next day - or the interventional radiologist gets called in to do a more advanced study and take care of the bleeder.

        I have a friend from the Shahrani Uzbeks of Afghanistan who is a graduate of a top notch engineering school. I think he explained it best when he contrasted job security (certainly with 100% job occupancy physicians lead here) with total long term earnings in the context of that stability.

        The statistic not cited is that physicians pay their loans off faster and rarely if ever default. So while the weight of the loan is hefty, I think there is a break even point and then a point where proper savings results in accumulation of net wealth without the headache of being a 60 year old engineer struggling to compete against a 25 year old graduate.
        "2 crackheads don't become any better or stronger by sharing the same crack pipe." - Greatest PF quote

        Comment


        • #5
          Being a Physician is a great job, and the work they do is a great service to humanity; no doubt. Although, I must confess it is silly to assume that a Physician will:

          A)Ever live as good and as comfortable as a life as a Software Engineer
          B)Will ever make as much as a Software Engineer

          The aforementioned applies to mediocre universities as well. I know hundreds of Engineers, each one after his bachelors degree is making well over the 6 figure mark, and by the time the near 35 year old Physician is done with his studies, a Software Engineer is already living on a boat, off of some island, or has a million dollars saved up rather comfortably. The USA needs Software Engineers, and it is having a hard time producing them.

          To give you an example [MENTION=1772]BarakzaiAbdali[/MENTION] Google pays their Engineers nearly ~150K(and a 30K stock, etc)with a bachelors, similar statistics for Apple, Facebook, Yahoo, and let's not get into the 2sigma and other companies that hire thousands, and pays them generally a quarter million with a B.S.E or, B.E in CSE/CS.

          I think becoming a Physician, at least for an Afghan, is a reckoning experience, that can destroy a traditional family's life, considering the time they'd wait for his son/daughter to actually begin helping the family. Perhaps the 2nd generation of Afghans, who come from educated families might find it easier.

          Simply put, as an algoholic, it just doesn't make sense.
          Even Adobe Photoshop can't change me.

          A line[Durrand line] of hatred that raised a wall between the two brothers -Hamid Karzai

          For generations, the Hindus of India prayed for deliverance from "the venom of the cobra, the teeth of the tiger and the vengeance of the Afghan."


          The men of Kábul and Khilj also went home; and whenever they were questioned about the Musulmáns of the Kohistán (the mountains), and how matters stood there, they said, "Don't call it Kohistán, but Afghánistán; for there is nothing there but Afgháns and disturbances." Thus it is clear that for this reason the people of the country call their home in their own language Afghánistán, and themselves Afgháns. The people of India call them Patán; but the reason for this is not known. But it occurs to me, that when, under the rule of Muhammadan sovereigns, Musulmáns first came to the city of Patná, and dwelt there, the people of India (for that reason) called them Patáns—but God knows!

          -Ferishta, 1560–1620

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by Admin Khan View Post
            Being a Physician is a great job, and the work they do is a great service to humanity; no doubt.

            Salaam Admin. Personally I have a great deal of respect for applied physicists, mechanical engineers, computer engineers, and computer scientists in general. Assange, a software guy and programmer on the sly as well as Snowden have done more for humanity than with single key strokes than so many physicians. Just on a knowledge level, I think that the logic and quick thinking that a good engineer employs makes him invaluable.

            That being said, and I try to avoid discussions of monetary wealth, but I think its worth having for youngsters here to learn from our back and forth. So they can read on below.

            Although, I must confess it is silly to assume that a Physician will:

            A)Ever live as good and as comfortable as a life as a Software Engineer

            I think it depends. I think it would be silly to assume I would ever live as comfortable a life as a software engineer. I accepted long ago that the compromise would be the time I have for myself.

            I would beg to differ regarding some of the other specialists such as cosmetic surgeons, cosmetic dermatologists, dermatologists in general, many private prac physicians, concierge medicine folks and a whole host of others.


            B)Will ever make as much as a Software Engineer

            I would have to disagree based on these two pieces of information. This is from business insider:
            http://www.businessinsider.com/the-w...y-of-118192-21

            The title is the 25 best companies for paying software engineers. The nice thing is that they provide the average/base salary. They may go higher or lower and we don't have the standard devs to work with, but I think its invaluable information.

            Some of these top companies are google, Juniper Networks, Twitter etc and we see that on average, the best of the best, Juniper networks pays an average base of ~ $130,000.

            They derived their info from Glassdoor.

            Now lets go to Medscape and compare physician compensation figures.

            http://www.medscape.com/features/sli...on/2013/public

            Going to slide 2, the lowest end of the spectrum is the HIV/AIDS specialist. These are some of the most giving people and their returns are some of the lowest... yet their average base is still above the best of Business Insider's best for a software engineer.

            Now the other thing is that physicians in the US have one unparalleled aspect to their employment, due to their supply demand control there is virtually a 100% job occupancy rate.

            The concept of the 2.2% unemployment rate that software engineers see is unheard of in medicine:
            http://www.computerworld.com/s/artic...ngineers_soars

            Note that the article emphasizes the employment issue facing electrical engineers. They make it clear that the percentage for EE's of unemployment of 3.4% is nothing to laugh at, per the IEEE president's commentary. That's because that's jobs in the 10s of thousands. Physicians on the other hand could never imaging 10s of thousands of their colleagues being out of work.

            Note the article also indicates Ohio is having to institute controls on the H1B visa due to American companies being able to outsource or recruit and underpay a Chinese or Indian guy. That once again, is unheard of in medicine since AMGs get first preference in nearly all matters.

            Here was Forbes's 2010 estimate:
            http://xfinity.comcast.net/slideshow...e-engineer%20/


            The aforementioned applies to mediocre universities as well. I know hundreds of Engineers, each one after his bachelors degree is making well over the 6 figure mark, and by the time the near 35 year old Physician is done with his studies, a Software Engineer is already living on a boat, off of some island, or has a million dollars saved up rather comfortably. The USA needs Software Engineers, and it is having a hard time producing them.

            To give you an example @BarakzaiAbdali Google pays their Engineers nearly ~150K(and a 30K stock, etc)with a bachelors, similar statistics for Apple, Facebook, Yahoo, and let's not get into the 2sigma and other companies that hire thousands, and pays them generally a quarter million with a B.S.E or, B.E in CSE/CS.

            I would need to be privy to this information. I am not at all disagreeing its possible, but we are talking about averages. The Forbes and Business Insider averages even for the top companies make this a hard sell.

            I think becoming a Physician, at least for an Afghan, is a reckoning experience, that can destroy a traditional family's life, considering the time they'd wait for his son/daughter to actually begin helping the family.

            This is the hard part of our culture. Once here though I think Afghan youth have to think of their own children and that future to come. Dedication to parents is a must, but parents must step out of the way when it comes time for their children to rise and break though glass ceilings. I have seen many Pashtun parents place burdens on their children and their dedicated children forsake all sorts of higher callings without understanding that these decisions they make will have implications that will reverberate for the rest of their and their own children's lives. This is one instance where I advocate rebellion and resistance to the old ways. We have to maximize earning potentials and the ability to sustain ourselves no matter what our belief systems... especially in this unforgiving environment where we have no one but ourselves.

            Perhaps the 2nd generation of Afghans, who come from educated families might find it easier.

            The key is to be there for each others. Its up to us, me and you, to catch these kids early on and make sure that they have the support they need, even if its emotional support. A child may have a mother he loves, who also prizes her only son and cries to him day in and day out. Trust me I know Pashtun mothers and they sure do love their sons more than the heavens. But he cannot let that deter him from achieving more so that his son doesn't have to make that choice.

            We have to make sure that all the negative things we see in our societies don't weigh these kids down. On the one hand, engineering and medicine is not for everybody. And no one, I mean no one should be stigmatized, looked down on, etc if their skills are in something else completely (history, economics, etc). Its a stupidity that I see day in and day out in all our people from the East. By the same token, we have to make sure tang nazaar isn't utilized either. I have seen some very smart children limited by their families because a family 3 doors down decided to tell that family that it wasn't proper to send children 3 states down away from home... and 2 years later the same family that gave the advice sent their own children halfway across the nation.

            I love some of the traits of my people, but I hate some of their traits as well.

            Simply put, as an algoholic, it just doesn't make sense.
            x
            "2 crackheads don't become any better or stronger by sharing the same crack pipe." - Greatest PF quote

            Comment


            • #7
              Caveat to above... when I say "no matter what out belief systems" I mean the variations of Pashtun philosophies I see here from secular atheist to religionist... not that one should break Islamic law codes (e.g. no amount of money in the world makes it worth being a casino owner etc).
              "2 crackheads don't become any better or stronger by sharing the same crack pipe." - Greatest PF quote

              Comment


              • #8
                Glassdoor is user contributed, BA, trust me when I say Google offers their entry level Engineers(with a B.S in C.S) ~180K(when stock, bonus and salary is all included,) Not to mention, like I said, Finance companies offer much, much, more which can dwarf the quality of life and pay of physicists. But that's not my point, my point is becoming a doctor in the U.S, if not on a full scholarship, should be discouraged by you, and by our leaders, instead they should travel to Pakistan, England, or any other countries where it takes LESSER TIME, and LESSER DEBT. It is ridiculous, and I mean absolutely pathetic to be in school till you are 40, and to graduate with AT LEAST a quarter million in debt, where as a Software Engineer by that time is ALREADY thinking about retirement plans, with a million or two saved up; [MENTION=1772]BarakzaiAbdali[/MENTION]

                The average Software Engineer, I agree, would make about ~130K, and graduate with AT LEAST 5 job offers(I'm being courterous, considering the ton of companies and head counters that are begging for us Engineers), he works less than 40 hours(more like 30ish), and gets perks along the lines of:
                a)Catered lunches(including Halal)
                b)Laundry service(come into work with your laundry, and they will do it for you)
                c)Mechanic service(Car is broken? Facebook has mechanics ON SITE who will fix it)
                d)Free car rental(Google lets you take home the thousands of cars they have available for Engineers)
                and much, much more.


                Here is my point, even the folks who have been here for generations can't understand why its so ridiculously expensive to become doctors. Knowing the aforementioned, there was also a report that nearly half, i.e 50% of Physicians surveyed were :

                A)Unhappy with their career path
                B)Would not recommend others to be a physician.

                Put all the rest to the side, and here is what bothers me, we should be encouraging Afghans to become doctors OUTSIDE the U.S, not IN THE U.S, you were intelligent, attending a top 10 school, which is why you would never understand the expenses, the debt, that a traditional, average Afghan, who say attends a UCLA, a City College of New York, or a Stony Brook, has to go through. His family has to make a ton of sacrifices, and simply put in the U.S, most families can't put up with that. They need support.

                Why is that?
                Even Adobe Photoshop can't change me.

                A line[Durrand line] of hatred that raised a wall between the two brothers -Hamid Karzai

                For generations, the Hindus of India prayed for deliverance from "the venom of the cobra, the teeth of the tiger and the vengeance of the Afghan."


                The men of Kábul and Khilj also went home; and whenever they were questioned about the Musulmáns of the Kohistán (the mountains), and how matters stood there, they said, "Don't call it Kohistán, but Afghánistán; for there is nothing there but Afgháns and disturbances." Thus it is clear that for this reason the people of the country call their home in their own language Afghánistán, and themselves Afgháns. The people of India call them Patán; but the reason for this is not known. But it occurs to me, that when, under the rule of Muhammadan sovereigns, Musulmáns first came to the city of Patná, and dwelt there, the people of India (for that reason) called them Patáns—but God knows!

                -Ferishta, 1560–1620

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                • #9
                  Real money is only in business. Whatever profession you're in unless your plan is to coast through life on a 100k salary which these days doesn't get you anywhere you better have a game plan for a future business in your own profession
                  It's enough that I know, Our time had a home, In your heart..Was a place..But the glass always breaks..

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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Admin Khan View Post
                    Glassdoor is user contributed, BA, trust me when I say Google offers their entry level Engineers(with a B.S in C.S) ~180K(when stock, bonus and salary is all included,) Not to mention, like I said, Finance companies offer much, much, more which can dwarf the quality of life and pay of physicists. But that's not my point, my point is becoming a doctor in the U.S, if not on a full scholarship, should be discouraged by you, and by our leaders, instead they should travel to Pakistan, England, or any other countries where it takes LESSER TIME, and LESSER DEBT. It is ridiculous, and I mean absolutely pathetic to be in school till you are 40, and to graduate with AT LEAST a quarter million in debt, where as a Software Engineer by that time is ALREADY thinking about retirement plans, with a million or two saved up; @BarakzaiAbdali

                    The average Software Engineer, I agree, would make about ~130K, and graduate with AT LEAST 5 job offers(I'm being courterous, considering the ton of companies and head counters that are begging for us Engineers), he works less than 40 hours(more like 30ish), and gets perks along the lines of:
                    a)Catered lunches(including Halal)
                    b)Laundry service(come into work with your laundry, and they will do it for you)
                    c)Mechanic service(Car is broken? Facebook has mechanics ON SITE who will fix it)
                    d)Free car rental(Google lets you take home the thousands of cars they have available for Engineers)
                    and much, much more.


                    Here is my point, even the folks who have been here for generations can't understand why its so ridiculously expensive to become doctors. Knowing the aforementioned, there was also a report that nearly half, i.e 50% of Physicians surveyed were :

                    A)Unhappy with their career path
                    B)Would not recommend others to be a physician.

                    Put all the rest to the side, and here is what bothers me, we should be encouraging Afghans to become doctors OUTSIDE the U.S, not IN THE U.S, you were intelligent, attending a top 10 school, which is why you would never understand the expenses, the debt, that a traditional, average Afghan, who say attends a UCLA, a City College of New York, or a Stony Brook, has to go through. His family has to make a ton of sacrifices, and simply put in the U.S, most families can't put up with that. They need support.

                    Why is that?
                    We have to make sure we are talking about averages and staying within at least a standard dev of that mean.

                    So in that sense, here is where I agree:

                    1) I personally applaud any person who is a productive member of society. I am as proud of the barbar or janitor who is a nice person and is doing the best they can to help their family and be productive.

                    2) Any education is good education, but I tend to see eye to eye with you that its best directed towards a STEM/technical field of some sort so that you have a skill. I admire English Lit majors and think that the nuances of language are beautiful and someone with knowledge should preserve these things, but the average person needs a trade type skill that serves as some sort of backup and makes them valuable to society.

                    3) We have to be innovative and capitalize on our strengths. If a kid is a whiz with electronics, design, programming etc and can stay on top of things and makes it apparent to you that he doesn't like blood and that this is what they want to do for the rest of their lives - we should capitalize on that strength and make sure that child is the best computer engineer, grid design-power engineer, or whatever else they want to be.

                    Disagree:

                    I have been trying to find data to substantiate what you mention. Trust me, more capitalism infused into medicine would make me very happy. Sometimes I think cost savings in medicine will have to come from introducing the same sort of competition engineers face.

                    The issue is I generally find that most of the information supports the Medscape data I provided:
                    http://moneyning.com/career/who-actu...0000-per-year/

                    Look at #2: "Even a local general practitioner can expect to pull in over $100,000 per year, ...."

                    What that means is that though 10 software engineers may graduate from 10 different institutions across the country and have a wide spread of salaries between them meaning: Admin Khan of MIT will get $200,000 starting, a lear jet to headquarters cross country, stock options etc, owernship in patents developed ... but Plankaay Khan from Ohio State will more likely find himself starting at 90,000 elsewhere with wide variations around the average.

                    The other issue I found as an engineer was that you were trained to do one thing and you may have loved a certain set of design challenges but as Talal pointed out - the business guys steered you, like a horse with blinders on, towards other projects that may not have stoked your fancy. That is, you were at the mercy of the market.

                    The medicine spread is a bit more tight around the average quoted. That means that a CT surgery graduating from Cleveland Clinic (top place in the world) and the one graduating from Wayne State (a sort of scary place) would find themselves not that far apart in terms of salary offers unless the Cleveland Clinic guy was getting offered a chairman position somewhere.

                    I think that's why that article from CNN above points out that the specialists make so much consistently.

                    The devil is in the details though where if you remain a generalist in medicine you will hit a financial glass ceiling.
                    Last edited by BarakzaiAbdali; 11-09-2013, 12:03 AM.
                    "2 crackheads don't become any better or stronger by sharing the same crack pipe." - Greatest PF quote

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      BA,
                      the data is relatively simple to comprehend:
                      A Software Engineer, by the age of 22, is expected to make 6 figures, where as a doctor, by the age of 27-28, graduates with a ton-of debt, generally around $300K, with interest, which as you know, is an exponential function. By that time, the Engineer not only usually owns a house, but he has more in the bank, and lives a much better life, and on the verge of thinking of the next DropBox idea, to make him a millionaire.

                      Software Engineers in the USA, regardless of which school you are in, are in demand. Just yesterday there was a list of "top degrees in the USA", and CS was #1, which makes sense, due to the explosive demand.
                      Even Adobe Photoshop can't change me.

                      A line[Durrand line] of hatred that raised a wall between the two brothers -Hamid Karzai

                      For generations, the Hindus of India prayed for deliverance from "the venom of the cobra, the teeth of the tiger and the vengeance of the Afghan."


                      The men of Kábul and Khilj also went home; and whenever they were questioned about the Musulmáns of the Kohistán (the mountains), and how matters stood there, they said, "Don't call it Kohistán, but Afghánistán; for there is nothing there but Afgháns and disturbances." Thus it is clear that for this reason the people of the country call their home in their own language Afghánistán, and themselves Afgháns. The people of India call them Patán; but the reason for this is not known. But it occurs to me, that when, under the rule of Muhammadan sovereigns, Musulmáns first came to the city of Patná, and dwelt there, the people of India (for that reason) called them Patáns—but God knows!

                      -Ferishta, 1560–1620

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Admin Khan View Post
                        BA,
                        the data is relatively simple to comprehend:
                        A Software Engineer, by the age of 22, is expected to make 6 figures, where as a doctor, by the age of 27-28, graduates with a ton-of debt, generally around $300K, with interest, which as you know, is an exponential function. By that time, the Engineer not only usually owns a house, but he has more in the bank, and lives a much better life, and on the verge of thinking of the next DropBox idea, to make him a millionaire.

                        Software Engineers in the USA, regardless of which school you are in, are in demand. Just yesterday there was a list of "top degrees in the USA", and CS was #1, which makes sense, due to the explosive demand.
                        Once again though, I don't see the data in print. What I do see is not a single attending physician still in education debt and the single group of loan takers that are able to successfully repay loans at the fastest rate.

                        The means that they are generally out of the red at a rather fast pace with wealth accumulation beginning at a later date but with greater magnitude.

                        A number of private practices also hire with the contractual obligation of assisting in loan repayment.

                        This article details how, despite rising tuition costs, the loan indebtedness has flat lined or plateaued (the only field to accomplish this feat):


                        " Surprisingly, though, that debt level has barely budged over the past several years, although medical school tuition rates continue to rise. "

                        Many states also offer loan repayment programs not available to any other field:


                        How your profession dictates your home loan discount - Your Mortgage Australia

                        Take a look at what this assessment says regarding physicians:
                        Banks consider doctors to be good risks, which is why they get the best deals.
                        “The banks actually monitor the default rate of particular professions and then use this data to tweak their lending policies,” Dargan says.” Doctors are known to be a very low risk in fact they almost never default on their loans. In addition to this their income tends to grow exponentially as their career progresses, and so they buy investment properties and apply for many more loans with their bank.”

                        So I would say if a student came to me with the following scenario:

                        Student: I am equally divided between wanting to be a software engineer or a physician.... I am academically strong at both and will in the least do a CS major at the bachelor level... and I could be happy in both scenarios. All that will drive me is economics.

                        Myself: Economics in what sense? Is job security your issue? Do you want to be an entrapeneur and take risks? Do you want to be in the "1%"?

                        Student: I want to have job security and maximum control over economic destiny. I do want to be wealthy but I am not a risk taker.

                        Myself:
                        OK, so the key here is to have a safety, so do the technical degree like you mentioned, in something that could work should med school not work out and CS is a great choice.

                        Job security wise: Physicians are never out of work in the US since we control the supply and demand in all 50 states and tightly regulate it no other field has accomplished this. We have made outsourcing very difficult in any fashion, review the way radiologists made sure Indian reads could not be done without American physician oversight.

                        Engineers and software programmers of any sort have not been able to control the economic destiny of their field. Even the concept of ABET accreditation has been slow to catch on and non ABET accredited engineers graduate from institutions every day and compete for and secure jobs before their ABET counterparts. Thats virtually impossible as all medical schools require firm accreditation and all employers demand a board diploma.

                        Student: OK, but does that job security translate into wealth accumulation?

                        Myself: That is the rub. Its dependent on you to some degree. The latest data consistently shows that you wont ever be below upper middle class even as an internist... but you have to exert yourself in medical school and specialize to meet your goal of wealth generation.

                        This means that as an internist you will be able to secure a job anywhere from Hawaii to Montana to NYC... that part is assured even as a general practitioner. And your base salary will ensure that you will be able to live comfortably. You can augment your income with procedures and moonlighting at the local hospitals by $100,000 easily.

                        So compared to the average software engineer you will have the combination of job security and your average income will surpass theirs. But, they have the potential to be entrepeneurial and innovate... yet as we know the overwhelming majority are not Bill Gates.

                        So the trade off is, are you a gambler?

                        Student: I hear about loans though and how you start later.

                        Myself: Once again, you are making money as a trainee and you supplement that with moonlighting with many specialist trainees making $90,000 in their training period. Thats the estimated average pay for software engineers at the get go.

                        The NIH and many private practices give physicians loan repayment packages... and the average loan indebtedness has flatlined despite growing educational costs (that feat is unheard of). Thats because so many medical schools are stepping up and using their endowments to pay for the education of their students. Cleveland Clinic, a premiere institute pays the complete tuition of their graduates for instance.

                        The pay growth of the average specialist (e.g. dermatologist, anesthesiologist, etc) grows exponentially versus the rate of salary growth of a software specialist... so that is something to consider.

                        Student: Will things change with Obamacare?

                        Myself: To some degree. A graduating cardiologist might not start at $375,000 and may have to settle for $300,000 but on the other side of things whereas only 5 of 7 patients could previously pay, now 100% of thing will be compensated.
                        "2 crackheads don't become any better or stronger by sharing the same crack pipe." - Greatest PF quote

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                        • #13
                          Here is another example of the wide spread/appeal for physician employment across the nation with the US News estimate of the average base for internists being even higher:

                          Physician Salary Information | Best Jobs | US News Careers
                          "2 crackheads don't become any better or stronger by sharing the same crack pipe." - Greatest PF quote

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