10,000 Chinese troops in Gilgit-Baltistan

[BLS_1919v2.0]

www.thenews.com.pk - Security Verification

10,000 Chinese troops in Gilgit-Baltistan
Tuesday, August 31, 2010
Monitoring Desk
NEW YORK: Well known South Asia specialist and writer Selig Harrison, who has a long been a critic of Pak policy, has made a startling disclosure in his latest article in the New York Times, which has almost gone unnoticed in Pakistan. He says Pakistan has decided to hand over Gilgit-Baltistan to China and up to 10,000 troops of the Chinese People’s Liberation Army have moved into the area.
The article, published on Aug 26 in the opinion pages of the NYT, says a quiet geopolitical crisis is unfolding in the Himalayan borderlands of northern Pakistan, where Islamabad is handing over de facto control of the strategic Gilgit-Baltistan region in the northwest corner of disputed Kashmir to China.
Selig Harrison, who is director of the Asia Programme at the Center for International Policy and a former South Asia bureau chief of The Washington Post, writes under the title China’s Discreet Hold on Pakistan’s Northern Borderlands: “While the world focuses on the flood-ravaged Indus River valley, a quiet geopolitical crisis is unfolding in the Himalayan borderlands of northern Pakistan, where Islamabad is handing over de facto control of the strategic Gilgit-Baltistan region in the northwest corner of disputed Kashmir to China.
“The entire Pakistan-occupied western portion of Kashmir stretching from Gilgit in the north to Azad (Free) Kashmir in the south is closed to the world, in contrast to the media access that India permits in the eastern part, where it is combating a Pakistan-backed insurgency. But reports from a variety of foreign intelligence sources, Pakistani journalists and Pakistani human rights workers reveal two important new developments in Gilgit-Baltistan: a simmering rebellion against Pakistani rule and the influx of an estimated 7,000 to 11,000 soldiers of the People’s Liberation Army.
“China wants a grip on the region to assure unfettered road and rail access to the Gulf through Pakistan. It takes 16 to 25 days for Chinese oil tankers to reach the Gulf. When high-speed rail and road links through Gilgit and Baltistan are completed, China will be able to transport cargo from Eastern China to the new Chinese-built Pakistani naval bases at Gwadar, Pasni and Ormara, just east of the Gulf, within 48 hours.
“Many of the P.L.A. soldiers entering Gilgit-Baltistan are expected to work on the railroad. Some are extending the Karakoram Highway, built to link China’s Sinkiang Province with Pakistan. Others are working on dams, expressways and other projects.
Mystery surrounds the construction of 22 tunnels in secret locations where Pakistanis are barred. Tunnels would be necessary for a projected gas pipeline from Iran to China that would cross the Himalayas through Gilgit. But they could also be used for missile storage sites.
“Until recently, the P.L.A. construction crews lived in temporary encampments and went home after completing their assignments. Now they are building big residential enclaves clearly designed for a long-term presence.
“What is happening in the region matters to Washington for two reasons. Coupled with its support for the Taliban, Islamabad’s collusion in facilitating China’s access to the Gulf makes clear that Pakistan is not a US ally. Equally important, the nascent revolt in the Gilgit-Baltistan region is a reminder that Kashmiri demands for autonomy on both sides of the ceasefire line would have to be addressed in a settlement.
“Media attention has exposed the repression of the insurgency in the Indian-ruled Kashmir Valley. But if reporters could get into the Gilgit-Baltistan region and Azad Kashmir, they would find widespread, brutally suppressed local movements for democratic rights and regional autonomy.
“When the British partitioned South Asia in 1947, the Maharajah who ruled Kashmir, including Gilgit and Baltistan, acceded to India. This set off intermittent conflict that ended with Indian control of the Kashmir Valley, the establishment of Pakistan-sponsored Free Kashmir in western Kashmir, and Pakistan’s occupation of Gilgit and Baltistan, where Sunni Jihadi groups allied with the Pakistan Army have systematically terrorized the local Shiite Muslims.
“Gilgit and Baltistan are in effect under military rule. Democratic activists there want a legislature and other institutions without restrictions like the ones imposed on Free Kashmir, where the elected legislature controls only 4 out of 56 subjects covered in the state constitution. The rest are under the jurisdiction of Kashmir Council appointed by the president of Pakistan.
“India gives more power to the state government in Srinagar; elections there are widely regarded as fair, and open discussion of demands for autonomy is permitted. But the Pakistan-abetted insurgency in the Kashmir Valley has added to tensions between Indian occupation forces and an assertive population seeking greater local autonomy.
“The United States is uniquely situated to play a moderating role in Kashmir, given its growing economic and military ties with India and Pakistan’s aid dependence on Washington. Such a role should be limited to quiet diplomacy. Washington should press New Delhi to resume autonomy negotiations with Kashmiri separatists. Success would put pressure on Islamabad for comparable concessions in Free Kashmir and Gilgit-Baltistan. In Pakistan, Washington should focus on getting Islamabad to stop aiding the insurgency in the Kashmir Valley and to give New Delhi a formal commitment that it will not annex Gilgit and Baltistan.
“Precisely because the Gilgit-Baltistan region is so important to China, the United States, India and Pakistan should work together to make sure that it is not overwhelmed, like Tibet, by the Chinese behemoth.”
..

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My my...isn't this something.

[BLS_1919v2.0]

And to be fair, Pak government has responded with the following

Pak dismisses report of Chinese troops' presence in Gilgit-Baltistan


Pak dismisses report of Chinese troops' presence in Gilgit-Baltistan
Press Trust Of India
Islamabad, August 31, 2010
First Published: 23:43 IST(31/8/2010)
Last Updated: 23:55 IST(31/8/2010)
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Pakistan today dismissed as a "figment of imagination" a media report that the Gilgit-Baltistan region of the country had been handed over to China and that 10,000 Chinese troops had moved into the area. Foreign Office spokesman Abdul Basit rejected assertions made in this regard in an article
related stories

* Army readies for China threat
* China's 'intentions' being closely monitored: India

written by Selig Harrison in The New York Times on August 26.

The writer, a south Asia expert, had claimed that troops of the People’s Liberation Army (PLA) have moved into the area and a geo-political crisis was unfolding in the region.

"Given Selig Harrison's well-known anti-Pakistan mindset, his gross misrepresentation of facts is hardly surprising. Nor is it unexpected of India to create unnecessary hype using Mr Harrison's tendentious article," the spokesman said.

"The fact of the matter is that China, at our request, is helping us in repairing the Karakoram highway, which has been severely damaged by the recent floods and landslides. Anything beyond this is one's figment of imagination," Basit said.

Parts of Gilgit-Baltistan, earlier known as the Northern Areas, have been hit hard by recent flash floods triggered by torrential monsoon rains.

Over 100 people were killed by floods and landslides in the region.

President Asif Ali Zardari recently said that Pakistan had requested China to provide supplies to 25,000 people in Gilgit-Baltistan after they were cut off due to the flooding and landslides.

Pak dismisses report of Chinese troops' presence in Gilgit-Baltistan - Hindustan Times

[Catya Sher]

Interesting to learn. I believe Pakistan's side.
Selig Harrison was an unreliable leftist-type. He was so frequently consulted re Afghanistan affairs during the Soviet war there.
I never read his stuff because he was so far out in left field - from MY point of view.

I hadn't heard of him from that time until now.

He was very soft on the Soviets and perhaps pro-India, or at least quite critical of Pakistan.

So the source is not that dependable.

The KKH used to experience landslides constantly. Work crews were always rushed to the scene of washed out sections. Though not usually Chinese that I have heard. Perhaps the destruction was too great this time with the flooding.

Remember too that Chinese engineers were the main ones who constructed the KKH, along with many Pakistanis. It took a really long time to build.

The Chinese would know the road better than any other foreigners.

I think it's a false alarm.

[BLS_1919v2.0]

Interesting to learn. I believe Pakistan's side.
Selig Harrison was an unreliable leftist-type. He was so frequently consulted re Afghanistan affairs during the Soviet war there.
I never read his stuff because he was so far out in left field - from MY point of view.

I hadn't heard of him from that time until now.

He was very soft on the Soviets and perhaps pro-India, or at least quite critical of Pakistan.

So the source is not that dependable.

The KKH used to experience landslides constantly. Work crews were always rushed to the scene of washed out sections. Though not usually Chinese that I have heard. Perhaps the destruction was too great this time with the flooding.

Remember too that Chinese engineers were the main ones who constructed the KKH, along with many Pakistanis. It took a really long time to build.

The Chinese would know the road better than any other foreigners.

I think it's a false alarm.

Since when was Selig Harrison a leftist? Please enlighten us on this one. BTW he made some right predictions about the region..one being that the regime would not fall immediately after the withdrawal of soviets and the other being the 1965 Indo-Pak war.

Selig Harrison is one of the leading scholars in the field...he isn't an angel for sure. BTW I find it a little odd that you are skeptical about Selig Harrison but some of your links are highly questionable. intersting...hmmmmmm

[Toramana]

This is a very significant news. There were already Chinese troops reported by locals in the Shanglapar engaged in infrastructure construction and digging tunnel. BLS, could this also be linked to the alarcity with which US sent its helicopters to Swat for flood-relief activities and the intentions of Paki military to construct cantonments in Swat?

[BLS_1919v2.0]

This is a very significant news. There were already Chinese troops reported by locals in the Shanglapar engaged in infrastructure construction and digging tunnel. BLS, could this also be linked to the alarcity with which US sent its helicopters to Swat for flood-relief activities and the intentions of Paki military to construct cantonments in Swat?

Saiba it is possible but highly probable. Since the US or China haven't really showed their guns to each other. Most of their rivalry is financial, and the fact that China has some of the most US dollar reserves puts them in an advantageous but precarious position.

I think China, like US see the writing on the wall as it comes to Pakistan, so they are looking for a regional solution. China needs to secure these areas in an event of any collapse to the state of Pakistan and US probably sees some interest in areas like Pashtunkhwa (for obvious) reasons. As of now, one can speculate. So raatha khkaaree che the jig is up and its the beginning of the end for Pakistan. Allah u aalim.

[Catya Sher]

Reply to BLS above:

As I say, Selig Harrison was the type of observer whose opinion I always discounted.
You may call him "respected", but not by me or many better qualified sources.


As for links, you won't care for this one either, but here is a reasonable article to counter Selig Harrison's wild writings on this topic.
Note: I did NOT read the profile of S.H. mentioned here.

I have known for years that he is BAD NEWS. Any serious analyst thought he was very weird, to put it nicely, during the time of the anti-Soviet war.

By Raja G Mujtaba


New York Times is no different than Fox TV or CNN. These are basically mouth pieces of Zionists hence miss no opportunity to malign Pakistan in any or every issue weather related or not or has any relevance to truth or not.


Gilgit, tourists destination



The recent floods in Pakistan are known to the whole world, its magnitude and devastation that it has caused and still no end is in sight. In this hour of need, every country and individuals around the world have moblised their resources to help the people of Pakistan in any way that they can.
In a similar gesture, China a great neighbor of Pakistan who has always stood to the test of time has never lagged behind in helping Pakistan and its people to the extent that she possibly can. Likewise this time also China has sent huge quantities of aid and relief goods to Pakistan to help in overcoming this catastrophe that has made millions homeless and rendered their lands, crops, livestock and houses useless.
Besides this China has also helped Pakistan in constructing the Karakoram Highway that links China and Pakistan. These unprecedented rains have washed away many bridges on this road that need to be reconstructed or repaired before they take on the traffic load. Since this portion was constructed by China therefore it was logical for the Chinese to come forward and help in rebuilding of the roads and bridges. This does involve movement of the Chinese workers in the area that Selig Harrison has dubbed as stationing of 10,000 troops in Gilgit-Baltistan that has been played up by India and some other from their camp.
In this context, a column in the New York Times newspaper by American commentator Selig Harrison has raised quite a bit of media attention around a conspiracy theory that the government is giving Gilgit Baltistan to China, a claim publicly denied by the Foreign Office. As with most conspiracy theories of this magnitude, a little basic research demonstrates that Mr Harrison and his claim of Pakistan ceding territory to China are unfounded and totally baseless.


What Harrison has said is understandable but what is more bothersome is the attitude of our own media that without going into any details or trying to ascertain the facts they just rush to reproduce the stories to create sensations. Such irresponsible behavior of the media must not go unchecked. One of the leading channels is airing daily programmes of the American channel, then the same channel is busy in selling out the National Interests and trying to work on themes like ‘Aman Ki Asha’ (quest for peace).


These very media houses are more than willing to repeat the wildest conspiracies without the least efforts in fact-checking. More troubling is that the Mr Harrison’s conspiracy seems to have been fed to him in part by Pakistani media. Certainly it must be serving their interests that needs to be investigated.
The first suspicion about Mr Harrison’s claim was that it was simply too outrageous to be believed without any authentic proof. Of course, Mr Harrison provides none in his column because none exists on ground.


Most troubling, as I said, is that Mr Harrison’s claim appears to be based at least in part on rumours by unnamed journalists. He says that his sources for this conspiracy theory are: …reports from a variety of foreign intelligence sources, Pakistani journalists and Pakistani human rights workers…

• What foreign intelligence sources is he talking about? While it would certainly be in keeping with journalistic practice to hold confidential the name of an informant, it is not unusual to at least report what agency the informant is associated with.
• Without playing into alternate conspiracy theories, it is well documented that intelligence agencies partake in disinformation campaigns designed to sow discord in targeted nations. Considering the location in question, is it not important to know which foreign intelligence agency is making these claims?
• It is quite troubling that some representatives of Pakistani media have been feeding such stories to foreign reporters.
• Considering Mr Harrison’s background (as will be explained below), it is worrisome that these Pakistani journalists went to Mr Harrison to promote their story.
• Certainly Mr Harrison will refuse to expose who these Pakistani journalists are, but at least he could name the papers or the agencies for which they work.
• There is reason to protect the identities of “whistle blowers” against official corruption for fear of their safety, there is little public good gained by allowing journalists to spread unsubstantiated rumours.

Now let’s look at Mr Harrison’s claims directly. Many of Mr Harrison’s claims are nothing more than hysterical conjecture.
See how Harrison builds sensation in his story, “Mystery surrounds the construction of 22 tunnels in secret locations where Pakistanis are barred. Tunnels would be necessary for a projected gas pipeline from Iran to China that would cross the Himalayas through Gilgit. But they could also be used for missile storage sites.” Here his mention that these could also be used for storage of missiles is simply a fiction writer’s dream. Also it would be appropriate to mention here that Gilgit-Baltistan is a tourist area of Pakistan where lots of both domestic and foreign tourists flock.


I could not help but think of the famous American claims about Iraq’s “aluminum tubes and mobile laboratories for weapons of mass destruction.” The idea that China, which shares a border with Pakistan, would need to store missiles under Gilgit-Baltistan makes no sense. Unfortunately for Mr Harrison’s conspiracy theory, though, building tunnels for a gas pipeline would be a perfectly reasonable explanation for an increased presence of Chinese workers in the region. It’s just not quite as scary.


Of course, this is not the first claim that Mr Harrison has made about the break up of Pakistan. The Pakistan Policy Blog noticed this trend of Mr Harrison’s back in 2008, noting that “Selig Harrison has made a career of predicting the imminent break-up of South Asian states”. In 2006, Mr Harrison reported for the French newspaper Le Monde Diplomatique that Baluchistan and Sindh were preparing to quit the nation.


While there is no denying that we have seen groups of separatists and ethnic strife in the country (what country has not experienced such moves in its history?), Mr Harrison’s reports consistently take on a tone of imminent national dissolution that is simply not supported by the facts. Four years after Mr Harrison’s prediction in the French media and no such calamity has occurred, of course. Yet Mr Harrison continues to predict the breakup of Pakistan. Perhaps he believes that if he simply wishes hard enough, it will come true?


Joshua Foust, a respected American journalist and intelligence consultant on South Asia, wrote a scathing profile of Mr Selig Harrison in 2008 in which he calls Mr Harrison’s writings on Pashtunistan, “silly, over-hyped nonsense” and says, “As it is, Harrison casts a very unconvincing shadow on the discourse over the Pashtunistan issue. It merits serious discussion—separatist movements always do. But placing them in their proper context, both historically and socially, is just as important as making a case you’ve been trying to make for years. As it is, Harrison seems to rely on mischaracterization, hyperbole, and “the soft bigotry of low expectations” (to borrow a phrase and avoid slinging charges of Orientalism)—hardly the stuff of a world-renowned regional expert.
I hesitate to accuse Harrison of wearing ideological blinders, as I can’t really figure out what his ideology is...



My question here, though,...is : who the hell keeps paying him to write? I have to assume it is simply the ignorant, those more aware of his reputation than his recent scholarship, without the means to fact-check what he writes so long as it confirms their biases...


Today, of course, Mr Harrison is not talking only about a separatist rebellion, but he has added a twist by claiming the government is “handing over de facto control of the strategic Gilgit-Baltistan region in the northwest corner of disputed Kashmir to China”. His evidence? Chinese PLA workers building roads and bridges.


Mr Harrison’s column, it is important to note, appears on the Opinion page of the New York Times. It does not even pretend to be an objective or investigative report, nor should it.


Mr Harrison makes clear his position when he writes, what is happening in the region matters to Washington for two reasons.

• Pakistan’s support for the Taliban,
• Islamabad’s collusion in facilitating China’s access to the Gulf makes clear that Pakistan is not a U.S. “ally.”

This is a position in direct conflict with the official positions of the US and Pakistan. It is not only Harrison’s opinion, but an attempt to change the direction of Pakistan-US relations. Something, it seems, he has been trying to do for years.


An opinion column with no evidence, a discredited author, and sources from unnamed foreign intelligence agencies. One has to ask why the Pakistani media has been so ready to republish such rubbish....

[Bengal_Tiger]

Chinese have outright denied it.

Indians have not responded saying that the Chinese are lying, and have provided no proof.

So for now we will have to treat is just one of the many lies the Indian propaganda machine spreads.

Anyway Chinese will deal with whoever is in business in northern Pakistan. They prefer a united Pakistan so they can have direct access to the strategic Persian Gulf, but were a Pashtun state to exist in the future they would have positive relations with it, in the same way they have excellent relations with the former East Pakistan, now Bangladesh.

[BLS_1919v2.0]

Reply to BLS above:

As I say, Selig Harrison was the type of observer whose opinion I always discounted.
You may call him "respected", but not by me or many better qualified sources.


As for links, you won't care for this one either, but here is a reasonable article to counter Selig Harrison's wild writings on this topic.
Note: I did NOT read the profile of S.H. mentioned here.

I have known for years that he is BAD NEWS. Any serious analyst thought he was very weird, to put it nicely, during the time of the anti-Soviet war.

By Raja G Mujtaba


New York Times is no different than Fox TV or CNN. These are basically mouth pieces of Zionists hence miss no opportunity to malign Pakistan in any or every issue weather related or not or has any relevance to truth or not.


Gilgit, tourists destination



The recent floods in Pakistan are known to the whole world, its magnitude and devastation that it has caused and still no end is in sight. In this hour of need, every country and individuals around the world have moblised their resources to help the people of Pakistan in any way that they can.
In a similar gesture, China a great neighbor of Pakistan who has always stood to the test of time has never lagged behind in helping Pakistan and its people to the extent that she possibly can. Likewise this time also China has sent huge quantities of aid and relief goods to Pakistan to help in overcoming this catastrophe that has made millions homeless and rendered their lands, crops, livestock and houses useless.
Besides this China has also helped Pakistan in constructing the Karakoram Highway that links China and Pakistan. These unprecedented rains have washed away many bridges on this road that need to be reconstructed or repaired before they take on the traffic load. Since this portion was constructed by China therefore it was logical for the Chinese to come forward and help in rebuilding of the roads and bridges. This does involve movement of the Chinese workers in the area that Selig Harrison has dubbed as stationing of 10,000 troops in Gilgit-Baltistan that has been played up by India and some other from their camp.
In this context, a column in the New York Times newspaper by American commentator Selig Harrison has raised quite a bit of media attention around a conspiracy theory that the government is giving Gilgit Baltistan to China, a claim publicly denied by the Foreign Office. As with most conspiracy theories of this magnitude, a little basic research demonstrates that Mr Harrison and his claim of Pakistan ceding territory to China are unfounded and totally baseless.


What Harrison has said is understandable but what is more bothersome is the attitude of our own media that without going into any details or trying to ascertain the facts they just rush to reproduce the stories to create sensations. Such irresponsible behavior of the media must not go unchecked. One of the leading channels is airing daily programmes of the American channel, then the same channel is busy in selling out the National Interests and trying to work on themes like ‘Aman Ki Asha’ (quest for peace).


These very media houses are more than willing to repeat the wildest conspiracies without the least efforts in fact-checking. More troubling is that the Mr Harrison’s conspiracy seems to have been fed to him in part by Pakistani media. Certainly it must be serving their interests that needs to be investigated.
The first suspicion about Mr Harrison’s claim was that it was simply too outrageous to be believed without any authentic proof. Of course, Mr Harrison provides none in his column because none exists on ground.


Most troubling, as I said, is that Mr Harrison’s claim appears to be based at least in part on rumours by unnamed journalists. He says that his sources for this conspiracy theory are: …reports from a variety of foreign intelligence sources, Pakistani journalists and Pakistani human rights workers…

• What foreign intelligence sources is he talking about? While it would certainly be in keeping with journalistic practice to hold confidential the name of an informant, it is not unusual to at least report what agency the informant is associated with.
• Without playing into alternate conspiracy theories, it is well documented that intelligence agencies partake in disinformation campaigns designed to sow discord in targeted nations. Considering the location in question, is it not important to know which foreign intelligence agency is making these claims?
• It is quite troubling that some representatives of Pakistani media have been feeding such stories to foreign reporters.
• Considering Mr Harrison’s background (as will be explained below), it is worrisome that these Pakistani journalists went to Mr Harrison to promote their story.
• Certainly Mr Harrison will refuse to expose who these Pakistani journalists are, but at least he could name the papers or the agencies for which they work.
• There is reason to protect the identities of “whistle blowers” against official corruption for fear of their safety, there is little public good gained by allowing journalists to spread unsubstantiated rumours.

Now let’s look at Mr Harrison’s claims directly. Many of Mr Harrison’s claims are nothing more than hysterical conjecture.
See how Harrison builds sensation in his story, “Mystery surrounds the construction of 22 tunnels in secret locations where Pakistanis are barred. Tunnels would be necessary for a projected gas pipeline from Iran to China that would cross the Himalayas through Gilgit. But they could also be used for missile storage sites.” Here his mention that these could also be used for storage of missiles is simply a fiction writer’s dream. Also it would be appropriate to mention here that Gilgit-Baltistan is a tourist area of Pakistan where lots of both domestic and foreign tourists flock.


I could not help but think of the famous American claims about Iraq’s “aluminum tubes and mobile laboratories for weapons of mass destruction.” The idea that China, which shares a border with Pakistan, would need to store missiles under Gilgit-Baltistan makes no sense. Unfortunately for Mr Harrison’s conspiracy theory, though, building tunnels for a gas pipeline would be a perfectly reasonable explanation for an increased presence of Chinese workers in the region. It’s just not quite as scary.


Of course, this is not the first claim that Mr Harrison has made about the break up of Pakistan. The Pakistan Policy Blog noticed this trend of Mr Harrison’s back in 2008, noting that “Selig Harrison has made a career of predicting the imminent break-up of South Asian states”. In 2006, Mr Harrison reported for the French newspaper Le Monde Diplomatique that Baluchistan and Sindh were preparing to quit the nation.


While there is no denying that we have seen groups of separatists and ethnic strife in the country (what country has not experienced such moves in its history?), Mr Harrison’s reports consistently take on a tone of imminent national dissolution that is simply not supported by the facts. Four years after Mr Harrison’s prediction in the French media and no such calamity has occurred, of course. Yet Mr Harrison continues to predict the breakup of Pakistan. Perhaps he believes that if he simply wishes hard enough, it will come true?


Joshua Foust, a respected American journalist and intelligence consultant on South Asia, wrote a scathing profile of Mr Selig Harrison in 2008 in which he calls Mr Harrison’s writings on Pashtunistan, “silly, over-hyped nonsense” and says, “As it is, Harrison casts a very unconvincing shadow on the discourse over the Pashtunistan issue. It merits serious discussion—separatist movements always do. But placing them in their proper context, both historically and socially, is just as important as making a case you’ve been trying to make for years. As it is, Harrison seems to rely on mischaracterization, hyperbole, and “the soft bigotry of low expectations” (to borrow a phrase and avoid slinging charges of Orientalism)—hardly the stuff of a world-renowned regional expert.
I hesitate to accuse Harrison of wearing ideological blinders, as I can’t really figure out what his ideology is...



My question here, though,...is : who the hell keeps paying him to write? I have to assume it is simply the ignorant, those more aware of his reputation than his recent scholarship, without the means to fact-check what he writes so long as it confirms their biases...


Today, of course, Mr Harrison is not talking only about a separatist rebellion, but he has added a twist by claiming the government is “handing over de facto control of the strategic Gilgit-Baltistan region in the northwest corner of disputed Kashmir to China”. His evidence? Chinese PLA workers building roads and bridges.


Mr Harrison’s column, it is important to note, appears on the Opinion page of the New York Times. It does not even pretend to be an objective or investigative report, nor should it.


Mr Harrison makes clear his position when he writes, what is happening in the region matters to Washington for two reasons.

• Pakistan’s support for the Taliban,
• Islamabad’s collusion in facilitating China’s access to the Gulf makes clear that Pakistan is not a U.S. “ally.”

This is a position in direct conflict with the official positions of the US and Pakistan. It is not only Harrison’s opinion, but an attempt to change the direction of Pakistan-US relations. Something, it seems, he has been trying to do for years.


An opinion column with no evidence, a discredited author, and sources from unnamed foreign intelligence agencies. One has to ask why the Pakistani media has been so ready to republish such rubbish....

Your reply is an article from a person who is far less reputed and corroborated than Selig Harrison. BTW you haven't really provided any proof on Selig just you posted another article. You say you question his sources but I would like to know what then is your criteria...not to mention you called him a leftist. Oh and what is 'weird' please define that. I think you basically skirted the issue.

Now about your own article

It is based on some weak grounds. First of all, off the bat they have tried to discredit Harrison not neccessarily going to his work (what he forgets is that this man also made some very prudent predictions far more than the said writer). Second of all, the issue of sources, well in a way it is legitimate, but at certain times journalists can't disclose their sources. Even a layman like me can tell you this. He used Joshua Frost, but then again what are Joshua's credentials in comparison to his?

Oh and China has hardly helped Pakistan in regards to the floods, it has hardly been the all weather friend they have been made out to be. It was in reality the US and UK (for better or worse) who have and are still providing the bulk of aid.

If Harrison has issues with Pakistan's connection with talibs or their close alliance with China, obviously that would bother any journalist from that part of the world. How couldn't it?

[Talal]

10000 eh .. How some of these people became journalists I'll never know...There is no need for the chinks to be there

China's navy might have a reservation at gawadar tho I'm not sure about that but nah GT~BT that ain't goin nowhere

[Catya Sher]

Yeah, Talal.

BLS if it's really really important i can investigate more.

Let's just say I did consulting for analysts at RAND, then more independent than it is today, virtually an arm of the Pentagon, which itself has been 'hijacked'. It used to be sound, during the anti-Soviet days. They goofed on some things really badly, like supporting Saddam Hussein over Iran in the Iran-Iraq war.
But except for such debacles as that, the Pentagon and DIA, were from my point of view the most 'on-track' of any U.S. department.
The State Dept. was notoriously soft on the Soviets.
The only departments that really were strongly committed to for example, helping the Afghan mujahideen, were some of the military or para military people.
The CIA claimed credit but that is way over-exaggerated in my opinion.

This is an aside here because I want to put Selig Harrison in perspective.

To me, he's so laughable that it's boring to check up on all the details. However, I might be able to track down some of my friends from those days and get some useful statement which you would believe more than the ones coming from me, from the sound of it.

I am not sure about this Joshua guy, so I didn't read his blog, for a couple of reasons.

However, he did do an expose on Selig Harrison, so I'm throwing that in, carefully noting that I did not read it.

My idea is that life is too short to waste on reading stuff about people who are semi-sold-out from my point of view.

That's how many who were at the time qualified sources regarded our friend/enemy Selig!

Most intelligent people raised their eyebrows at the minimum. The Carnegie Foundation where he was a Scholar, is very liberal.

Questions were raised at the time whether he was secretly colluding with Soviets or some other unpleasant party. His ideas were ludicrous, from the point of view of most of the conservatives who worked on Afghanistan in the 80s.

You see that I spoke directly, admitting that I had not heard of him or followed since that time. Because what if he had come around and become much more realistic in the meantime?
Why not give him a chance, and assume the best? Rather than saying he's an idiot OR WORSE, some sort of agent of influence. That's why I politely used the word "weird", to connote WORSE than weird!
For all we know, after all, he could be reading this thread! I don't want to hurt anyone's feelings.

I feel the article by Raja Mujtaba sufficiently countered the crazy claims Selig was making. He may be in his dotage by now. It's either that, OR something more upsetting, like planting a story to rile up the entire region.

AS IF - at this tragic moment with the flooding from God and all the human-made instability - Pakistan and neighboring countries need more fuel to spark angry debates.

This is how the devil acts: throw a burning ember into a fire, and laugh while everyone around it is discomfited and made upset.

For sure, Selig Harrison is not a person coming from God's side of the equation.
Laugh at me as much as you want. But plain truth is better.

This is the true reason why I don't want to even read up on his activities since the 80s.

[Toramana]

Chinese have outright denied it.

Indians have not responded saying that the Chinese are lying, and have provided no proof.

So for now we will have to treat is just one of the many lies the Indian propaganda machine spreads.

Anyway Chinese will deal with whoever is in business in northern Pakistan. They prefer a united Pakistan so they can have direct access to the strategic Persian Gulf, but were a Pashtun state to exist in the future they would have positive relations with it, in the same way they have excellent relations with the former East Pakistan, now Bangladesh.

China placing missiles in G-B, encircling India: Jaswant Singh

* BJP leader claims Chinese military building road, rail networks in G-B

* Says even Pak Army denied access to building sites

By Iftikhar Gilani/ap

NEW DELHI: The Chinese military has dug tunnels in Gilgit-Baltistan (G-B) and is storing missiles there in an attempt to encircle India, claimed a senior leader of India's Opposition Bharatiya Janata Party (BJP) on Monday.

Speaking in Lok Sabha, the Lower House of Indian parliament, BJP leader Jaswant Singh claimed that the Chinese military is storing missiles in tunnels it has dug in G-B. The target of the missiles, he said, is India. Singh warned that Beijing was trying to "encircle" India. He said it has set up permanent structures in G-B in Jammu and Kashmir, which he said is "an inalienable part of India".

Rail, road networks: Singh remarked Pakistan has handed over G-B to China and the People's Liberation Army personnel were digging tunnels there to set up rail and road networks for placement of missiles. He asserted that "even locals and Pakistan Army personnel were not allowed to venture in those areas".

The former foreign minister stressed that it was an issue of vital national importance on which the government must respond in unequivocal terms. He criticised Prime Minister Manmohan Singh's recent statement on China's actions, which said that ''we do not have to be reciprocal'. Singh said that India was being encircled by the People's Republic of China and the prime minister chooses not to respond. He observed that statecraft was a cruel dealing where personal niceties had little relevance.

Meanwhile, the Ministry of External Affairs on Monday denied reports that appeared in a section of the press that India's maps had been confiscated by Chinese authorities from the country's pavilion at World Expo 2010. "I have seen a report in the Times of India about the alleged confiscation of some printed material depicting the Indian map... there is no factual basis to this report," a ministry spokesperson said.

According to the newspaper, officials of China's Public Security Bureau (PSB) barged into the Indian pavilion at the World Expo 2010 in Shanghai and seized brochures bearing India's map, saying they were taking away the maps because China objected to showing northeastern state of Arunachal Pradesh as a part of Indian territory. The spokesperson, however said, "there has been no interference in the functioning of our pavilion at the Shanghai Expo."

China had recently refused visa to an Indian Army general on the grounds that he commanded troops in Indian-held Kashmir, which it described as a disputed area. China said on Monday that it had not received any word from New Delhi that it had suspended military exchanges over the refusal of visa. An anonymous senior Indian official was quoted as saying in The Hindu on Saturday that future military exchanges and a joint exercise between Indian and Chinese defence forces would remain suspended until China resolved the issue.

"China did not suspend military exchanges with India, nor did it receive any communication from India about a suspension of exchanges between the two militaries," China's Ministry of National Defence said in a statement faxed to The Associated Press in response to questions

http://www.dailytimes.com.pk/default...-8-2010_pg7_31

[Bengal_Tiger]

??

China placing missiles in G-B, encircling India: Jaswant Singh

* BJP leader claims Chinese military building road, rail networks in G-B

BJP = Hindu Fascist Party, the same who hate you Pakhtuns as "invaders" who Islamized India, who hate Ahmed Shah Abdali.

That article is from 31st August.

I actually read that article before you did.

Here is one from the 2nd September.

<H2>China denies troops presence in Gilgit-Baltistan area

</H2>

5 Comments






China has rejected reports of the presence of over 11,000 of its troops in the Gilgit area of Pakistan-occupied-Kashmir (PoK), saying that such "groundless" reports were being put out with "ulterior motives" to hurt Beijing's ties with New Delhi and Islamabad.


"We believe the attempts of some people to fabricate stories to provoke China-Pakistan or China-India relations are doomed to fail," said Foreign Ministry spokesperson Jiang Yu in a brief statement late last night, which was circulated by the state run Xinhua newsagency

http://www.indianexpress.com/news/ch...n-area/676272/



No proof has been yet of China sending troops to Gilgit-Balitistan to occupy it.

The claims of a Hindu fascist without any evidence do not constitute proof.



Jaswant Singh, leader of the Hindu fascist BJP.

[amna.]

Indians just want Pakistan to appear as weak as possible. Its their main objective, Indians gate Pakistanis.

[Bengal_Tiger]

To be honest I don't know why I even bother this forum.

1. Bunch of immature western kids who can't speak Pashto and don't understand Pashtunwali.

2. Ignorant people blaming Wali Khan for not doing anything in Karachi when Wali Khan rahmatullahi alaih has been dead for 4 YEARS.

3. Atheists and Kafirs trying to insult Pashtuns by saying how clever they are because they know more big words in languages of the Ferengei, and trying to start an Islam-bashing crusade on this forum. Kafirs like Tormana who constantly try to show off about how clever they are "look at me, look at how clever I am...and look at how many big words I know" but instead very ignorant and simplistic fools.

4. Bitter communists and other losers who have not achieved anything in their lives trying to blame Islam for everything.

The endless stupidity and ignorance of morons on this forum never ceases to amaze me.

Thank Allah that the REAL Pakhtoons in Pakhtunkhwa are nothing like this.

Anyway real power amongst Pakhtoons lies in the jirga of the tribes...

of the Orakzai...

of the Mohmands...

of the Yusufzais..

of the Khattaks...

of the Kakars...

and not in western-raised Kafirs who speak in the language of the Ferengei.

No wonder there is no serious respectable Pakhtun on this forum (except Feroz Afridi) and it is considered a joke, even my Alokzai friend on MSN doesn't waste his time coming here. The quality of posting seriously needs to be improved.