Kurdistan referendum

[Friends of Baloch]

It is a great achievement for the Kurds to reach this point in their history where they can exercise their right to self-determination to stay within a federal Iraq or go their separate way as a sovereign state.

I think the choice is quite obvious.

I look forward to the day that an independent Kurdistan becomes a reality. One small good news out of the usual pile of sh!t news typical of the Middle East.

[maneatinglizard]

Didn't the Iraqi government try to block the referendum? The Kurds likely still have a long struggle ahead of them.

There's a similar referendum coming up in Catalonia. Spanish government is trying really hard to stop that too.

Seems like people of the world are waking up to the fact that many of their "beloved" nations actually don't make any sense are the cause for their troubles. I don't think dividing further is a great idea in the long run, but if it can move us towards borders that make more sense and result in better treatment of everyone, then hopefully these referendums will work out.

I wonder what would happen if someone tried to hold such a referendum in Pakistan. Or India.

[Friends of Baloch]

Didn't the Iraqi government try to block the referendum? The Kurds likely still have a long struggle ahead of them.

They have, but do not have the power to stop it from happening. Turkey, Iran, America and even the UN have all opposed it taking place at this time, but to the credit of the Kurds, they have ignored all foreign pressures and interference.

The only issue with independent Kurdistan is that it will likely have to fall under Israel's wing in their early years, if not longer. They have no other partners in the Middle East.

I wonder what would happen if someone tried to hold such a referendum in Pakistan.

Hmm let me think

Lets not even think to compare Kurdistan to Pakiland, that is a major insult to the Kurds.

[Friends of Baloch]

Didn't the Iraqi government try to block the referendum? The Kurds likely still have a long struggle ahead of them.

There's a similar referendum coming up in Catalonia. Spanish government is trying really hard to stop that too.

Seems like people of the world are waking up to the fact that many of their "beloved" nations actually don't make any sense are the cause for their troubles. I don't think dividing further is a great idea in the long run, but if it can move us towards borders that make more sense and result in better treatment of everyone, then hopefully these referendums will work out.

I wonder what would happen if someone tried to hold such a referendum in Pakistan. Or India.

Catalonia is mainly about economics. Even Italy has a separatist movement that wants to separate the north from the south, even though it was north Italy that conquered central and south Italy to make it all just one country. But that too, is mainly about economics.

Kurdistan is so much more than that.

[maneatinglizard]

Lets not even think to compare Kurdistan to Pakiland, that is a major insult to the Kurds.

What I mean is, how would Pakistan react if one the minority groups tried to hold a referendum on independence. Like if the Balochistan independence movement became popular enough that they tried to hold a referendum on forming an independent state.

Or if one of the secessionist movements in India did the same there. I have a feeling it'd result in a blood bath.

[Friends of Baloch]

What I mean is, how would Pakistan react if one the minority groups tried to hold a referendum on independence. Like if the Balochistan independence movement became popular enough that they tried to hold a referendum on forming an independent state.

Or if one of the secessionist movements in India did the same there. I have a feeling it'd result in a blood bath.

Nawab Akbar Khan Bugti was killed for asking for less, so you have your answer.

In both Pakiland and India it will end the same way as they both have the same backwards culture and mentality, which is in a blood bath as you correctly think.

You dont have to look very hard as there are many other examples than Balochistan, like Bangladesh liberation war in 1971 and Indian army attack on Sikhs holiest temple in 1984 etc

Fortunately for the Kurds of Iraq, Baghdad cannot use force to stop them this time. I hope that Kurds of Syria will be able to reach the same level of security to decide their own future too.

[Friends of Baloch]

On Eve of Kurdish Independence Vote, a Warning From Turkey
By DAVID ZUCCHINOSEPT. 23, 2017
On Eve of Kurdish Independence Vote, a Warning From Turkey - The New York Times

ERBIL, Iraq — Kurds seeking independence from Iraq came under intense pressure on Saturday from their powerful neighbor, Turkey, which demanded that Iraqi Kurdistan cancel an independence vote scheduled for Monday.

Turkey, the main link to the outside world for the autonomous Kurdish enclave in northern Iraq, threatened economic and diplomatic retaliation if Kurds carried out a referendum that the Turkish government called a “terrible mistake.”

Turkey’s Parliament voted late Saturday to renew for one year a mandate to authorize military intervention in Iraq or Syria if Turkey determines that developments there threaten national security. Turkey, a NATO member, is conducting tank exercises on its border with Iraqi Kurdistan.

Turkey’s prime minister, Binali Yildirim, asked by reporters in Ankara, the capital, whether a cross-border incursion was possible, replied that security operations were “a question of timing” based on “developing conditions.”

Iraq’s Kurds refused to back down. The Kurdish region’s president, Massoud Barzani, said the independence vote would proceed as scheduled despite threats from Turkey as well as Iran.

“It’s too late to talk about delaying the referendum,” Mr. Barzani said in a statement released by his office in Erbil on Saturday.

“It’s not my decision anymore, he added. “It’s a decision for the people.”

In a defiant speech on Friday evening to 40,000 Kurds in Erbil chanting “Bye-bye Iraq,” Mr. Barzani said of Turkey and Iran: “You have punished us for one hundred years. Are you not tired yet?”

Both Turkey and Iran fear that an independence move by Iraqi Kurds could set off unrest among their own Kurdish minorities.

Baghdad considers the vote illegal and unconstitutional, and Prime Minister Haider al-Abadi of Iraq has said his government is prepared to use military force if the referendum provokes violence. A delegation of Kurdish leaders traveled to Baghdad on Saturday to discuss the referendum with Iraqi officials.

Ali al-Alaq, a member of Iraq’s Parliament who has led talks with the Kurds, said in an interview that the discussions would continue over the weekend. But he said negotiations would end if the vote were conducted on Monday.

Kurdish officials said voting had already begun Saturday among Iraqi Kurdish expatriates in Germany, Denmark, Britain and Switzerland. Some waved the Kurdistan flag.

The United States and most of the international community have opposed the referendum, saying it could unleash ethnic conflict, break up Iraq and undermine the American-led campaign against Islamic State militants.

Iran, the Kurdish region’s eastern neighbor, has threatened border closures, prompting some Kurds to stockpile food and supplies.

Kurdish officials in Erbil, Iraqi Kurdistan’s capital, said they were continuing to talk on Saturday with American officials. The Kurdistan Regional Government has said it would scrap the referendum only if the United States provided an ironclad guarantee of a path to independence within a specified time.

The United States has urged Kurds to cancel the vote and begin negotiations with Baghdad, facilitated by Washington. Kurdish leaders say they want a public mandate from the Kurdish people before negotiating independence.

After the Americans established a no-fly zone in 1991 that protected Kurdish areas from attacks by Saddam Hussein’s troops, the Kurds have carved out an autonomous region with its own government, parliament and military. Kurdish fighters known as the pesh merga have played a central role, alongside Iraqi troops, in operations against the Islamic State.

The referendum would not lead directly to independence, but a strong “yes” vote would strengthen the Kurdish position in any negotiations with Baghdad. Rozh Nouri Shaways, leader of the Kurdish delegation in Baghdad, told reporters that Kurdistan was willing to negotiate with Iraq before and after the referendum.

Baghdad and Iraqi Kurdistan are locked in a longstanding dispute over contested areas, including oil-rich Kirkuk, seized by Kurdish fighters in 2014. Baghdad fears that the independence vote, which includes citizens of the contested areas, would strengthen Kurdish claims to those territories.

The ballot asks voters whether they want Kurdistan and the contested areas to become an independent state.

Kirkuk’s provincial governor, Najmaldin Karim, a Kurd, urged residents on Saturday to prepare to vote on Monday. “All the preparations have been made,” Mr. Karim told the Kurdish news agency Rudaw. He called the vote “historical.”

On Saturday morning, the police controlled by the Baghdad government withdrew from their posts in the city of Kirkuk and surrounding areas, according to local officials. They said that the police and government-paid school administrators had been directed by Baghdad not to assist with the referendum. Much of the voting is scheduled to take place at schools.

Kurdish officials said security officers from the Kurdistan Regional Government took over responsibility Saturday for security in the area.

[Elite Pakhtun]

It's a useless exercise. They will not gain independence, as it's a non-binding referendum, and they're predominantly in Turkey, not Iraq. Their geographic footprint in Iraq is low.

Turkey would conduct military action if the threat of splitting is real. Who would think otherwise?

[Friends of Baloch]

It's a useless exercise. They will not gain independence, as it's a non-binding referendum, and they're predominantly in Turkey, not Iraq. Their geographic footprint in Iraq is low.

Turkey would conduct military action if the threat of splitting is real. Who would think otherwise?

Kurds in Iraq dont care about threats from Turkey. This is about Iraq, not Turkey. Independence of Kurdistan from Iraq is inevitable, everybody can see this, but the current leadership there wants to expedite the process and demonstrate to both Baghdad and the World that they have a mandate from their people to begin the formal process of independence negotiations and acquire support from foreign governments. The referendum result will give them the formal mandate they want to demonstrate to the rest of the World. Informally, everybody already knows that Iraqi Kurds want to go their separate way no matter what political faction they belong to. Pro-Barzani or anti-Barzani, they are all united on independent Kurdistan.

Baghdad is in no position to use force against the Kurds.

What Turkey and Iran think about it is being ignored in Erbil. For Iraqi Kurds, this is an issue solely about Iraq.

Monday is going to be interesting.

[Elite Pakhtun]

Kurds in Iraq dont care about threats from Turkey. This is about Iraq, not Turkey. Independence of Kurdistan from Iraq is inevitable, everybody can see this, but the current leadership there wants to expedite the process and demonstrate to both Baghdad and the World that they have a mandate from their people to begin the formal process of independence negotiations and acquire support from foreign governments. The referendum result will give them the formal mandate they want to demonstrate to the rest of the World. Informally, everybody already knows that Iraqi Kurds want to go their separate way no matter what political faction they belong to. Pro-Barzani or anti-Barzani, they are all united on independent Kurdistan.

Baghdad is in no position to use force against the Kurds.

What Turkey and Iran think about it is being ignored in Erbil. For Iraqi Kurds, this is an issue solely about Iraq.

Monday is going to be interesting.

Why do you think Baghdad is not in a position to retaliate?

Baghdad will not be alone in desiring to conduct bombing raids on the Koordz... sounds like a ****ing pigeon. Kooorrrr... kooorrrrrrd.

[Friends of Baloch]

Why do you think Baghdad is not in a position to retaliate?

Baghdad will not be alone in desiring to conduct bombing raids on the Koordz... sounds like a ****ing pigeon. Kooorrrr... kooorrrrrrd.

Dont you remember how quickly the Iraqi army collapsed when ISIS attacked in 2014?

The Americans have tried to rebuild the Iraqi army again since then, but it is seriously weak and is entirely dependent on the US for support and management.

It was the Peshmerga in the north and Iran's IRGC along with Iranian backed Shi'a militias in the south that prevented the entirety of Iraq from falling to ISIS in 2014.

Since 2014 the Peshmerga has inflicted many defeats on IS and has taken over a large territory outside of the formal KRG boundary. The Kurds have dug in since then and arent going anywhere. They are also the most effective military force currently in Iraq.

The Iraqi airforce is practically non existent and their ground forces would take a beating from the Kurds if they attacked them.

The Americans are against the referendum, but they are still allied to the Iraqi Kurds and would never allow an air raid against them, which Iraq doesnt have the capacity to do anyway even if Baghdad wanted to.

[salman47]

First UK, now Kurdistan, then Catalonia and so on!!
I like to watch the world burn... Literally..

[Friends of Baloch]

First UK, now Kurdistan, then Catalonia and so on!!
I like to watch the world burn... Literally..

Burn? lol. What are you talking about.. The UK referendums, both on Scotland and on the EU, were peaceful and did not spark any violent conflicts.

The Catalonia campaign has also been peaceful, but is facing stiff resistance by the Spanish government politically.

You do realize anyway that all borders are man made and will never be permanent. Once a territorial boundary becomes obsolete or redundant for whatever reasons (and there are many why that could be) it is going to be changed as it always has done throughout history. Better that change comes by peaceful means, than by war.

[Firdousi]

I am not against Kurdish aspirations for an independent state but I believe it will create more instability in an already inestable region. Kurdistan is doomed to fail. It would be a landlocked country surrounded by a sea of hostile Turks, Persians and Arabs. Kurds shouldn't underestimate this. They believe that everything is about "will" but being outnumbered and enemies of everyone is a recipe for defeat. Thats what happened with ISIS: no matter how strong and willing they were to die for their cause, at the end of the day they were outnumbered and surrounded by enemies. Kurds its the same case. Kurds are not even homogenous group. PKK and Rojava don't get along with Talabanis and Barzanis.

BTW my personal opinion is that the West wants once again impose on us their boundaries. Once dividing the region along ethnic lines has failed they will try now to divide it along ethnic lines. Most of our current wars and miseries hail from fake Western made nation states seems now they want to repeat the trick.West is not reliable ally. They are in decline and will leave this region in a matter of few years. What will Kurds do then? Rely on Israel and KSA?

[Elite Pakhtun]

Dont you remember how quickly the Iraqi army collapsed when ISIS attacked in 2014?

That's because ISIS has a big portion of the old Iraqi army of Saddam Hussain. They were certainly going to beat a weak inexperienced "Iraqi" army.

It was the Peshmerga in the north and Iran's IRGC along with Iranian backed Shi'a

militias in the south that prevented the entirety of Iraq from falling to ISIS in 2014.

Since 2014 the Peshmerga has inflicted many defeats on IS and has taken over a large territory outside of the formal KRG boundary. The Kurds have dug in since then and arent going anywhere. They are also the most effective military force currently in Iraq.

The Iraqi airforce is practically non existent and their ground forces would take a beating from the Kurds if they attacked them.

The Americans are against the referendum, but they are still allied to the Iraqi Kurds and would never allow an air raid against them, which Iraq doesnt have the capacity to do anyway even if Baghdad wanted to.

Yes, peshmerga has support whereas ISIS does not. That's why they won battles in the first place.

I'm not implying baghdad will conduct air strikes, I'm saying outside parties may do so. Any unified concerted effort to quell Iraqi Kurdistan, by other countries, will likely succeed.