ISIS burns Palestinian flag.

[کیش]

Qais is going through his extremist Salafi/Wahabhi phase. Soon he will also go through the Salafi burnout phase as well, which is so typical

What are you talking about? You're going through an apologetic phrase. I say that because I know you haven't read books about Islam and this subject.

If you can't discuss the topic, but throw a bunch of labels around that proves you dont really know what you're talking about. This goes to you too Mahmoud [MENTION=17960]Herat[/MENTION]

[کیش]

Speak formal English jihadist goon, I don't understand street thug. Actually, you know what, deep down Im rooting for you guys too, I really want you to establish your jihadist state (tough excluding the lovely Kurdish and Christian folk) and then enter into a conventional war with either the west or Israel. And then I will pray to Allah that a 21st century equivalent of a glimpse of WWII be repeated once more: I want them to repeat what the allies did to Germany in Dresden or Japan in Tokyo again, I want a 21st century conventional war bombing campaign against a jihadist state. And then, when your jihadist state is literally reduced to dust, when there is no infrastructure for even basic subsistence, when you are sent back all the way to your nonexistent Islamic "golden age" in the 10th century, perhaps you will finally learn your place in this world, homo-inferior (genetically low-IQed jihadist).

You sound very barbaric, Mahmoud.

[کیش]

muslims are looting now europe: live on welfare, deal with drugs, abuse and rape (even in church! i did not know that coloniser raped muslimic girls in mosque (here will come some ****storm)), abuse muslims which they cannot brainwash with their ill ideology; in muslimic countries they kill innocent sunni muslims
what about this salary?

europeans used to read just one book for years and consider other as untermensch
jews who read just one book hate palestinians and consider themselves as the chosen people
muslims like you (kesh/qais) who read just one book are mind closed
as i know quran call on believers to read, so library is the right place for a muslim

Another person who doesnt know what theyre talking about.

Using the old tactic on me of telling me what I tell you. How creative, how original, shows how much you read.

[Karachi]

What are you talking about? You're going through an apologetic phrase. I say that because I know you haven't read books about Islam and this subject.

If you can't discuss the topic, but throw a bunch of labels around that proves you dont really know what you're talking about. This goes to you too Mahmoud @Herat

ISIS in not Islam, no way they represent Islam, they are a bunch of ex criminals/thugs doing jihad in the name of Islam

[Herat]

You sound very barbaric, Mahmoud.

Hehehe I suppose that is RTR huh? Well believe what you want, my jihadist friend. My time left here is very short and when I leave, I think youll be convinced that I am not RTR but do remember our intellectual bet: in that other thread, we pitted worldviews against each other via predictions, my interpretation of evolutionary theory vs your brand of the mythology of Islam.

The scientific fact of evolution vs the mythology of Islam, here were our predictions:

Scientific fact of evolution: the ME will balkanize along ethnic lines first and foremost (the triumph of kin selection over Islam) and possibly along sectarian lines second (the triumph of group selection over Islam, ironic since Islam is a form of group selection itself).

Mythology of Islam: the ME, parts of Asia and Europe will be conquered by the Islamic state.

Ill be gone but keep our bet in mind, see for yourself how evolutionary theory falsifies your religion.

[کیش]

Hehehe I suppose that is RTR huh? Well believe what you want, my jihadist friend. My time left here is very short and when I leave, I think youll be convinced that I am not RTR but do remember our intellectual bet: in that other thread, we pitted worldviews against each other via predictions, my interpretation of evolutionary theory vs your brand of the mythology of Islam.

The scientific fact of evolution vs the mythology of Islam, here were our predictions:

Scientific fact of evolution: the ME will balkanize along ethnic lines first and foremost (the triumph of kin selection over Islam) and possibly along sectarian lines second (the triumph of group selection over Islam, ironic since Islam is a form of group selection itself).

Mythology of Islam: the ME, parts of Asia and Europe will be conquered by the Islamic state.

Ill be gone but keep our bet in mind, see for yourself how evolutionary theory falsifies your religion.

oh my mistake, you're ScimitarXEdge and not RTR.

see now that was better than those attacks on me.

The destiny of Islam: the ME, Afg/Pak, North and West Africa will all slowly overthrow their governments, destroy their colonial borders and unite as one InshaAllah.

by your evolutionary theory look what group is the strongest in Syria out of hundreds? they will beat their adversaries in the coming year. leaving only the damaged Syrian army, which will also collapse soon. they cannot keep up these constant attacks, its destroying the people, land, and their soldiers sanities.

[کیش]

ISIS in not Islam, no way they represent Islam, they are a bunch of ex criminals/thugs doing jihad in the name of Islam

What is Islam? why can't former criminals do service in the name of islam? God is most merciful to the repentant sinner.

[HalloIsBack]

Another person who doesnt know what theyre talking about.

Using the old tactic on me of telling me what I tell you. How creative, how original, shows how much you read.

i keep it simple for mind closed people like you

thanks but i read enough

[HalloIsBack]

What is Islam? why can't former criminals do service in the name of islam? God is most merciful to the repentant sinner.

like in catholic church

[کیش]

Nah trick, not like catholic church. Where you confess to a man, who forgives you. The point that you related what I said to catholic church shows how little you know.

And,

Nah trick, you def do not read at all. What book are you currently reading? How cute, adorable, you called me "close minded" very good IDF troll you are.

[Herat]

oh my mistake, you're ScimitarXEdge and not RTR.

see now that was better than those attacks on me.

The destiny of Islam: the ME, Afg/Pak, North and West Africa will all slowly overthrow their governments, destroy their colonial borders and unite as one InshaAllah.

by your evolutionary theory look what group is the strongest in Syria out of hundreds? they will beat their adversaries in the coming year. leaving only the damaged Syrian army, which will also collapse soon. they cannot keep up these constant attacks, its destroying the people, land, and their soldiers sanities.

http://www.amazon.com/Religion-Expla...gion+evolution

Incidentally, I am currently reading yet another piece of literature on religion from an evolutionary perspective (the literature on the topic seems to have exploded in the past 10 years or so and continues to do so, not looking good for religionists) -this one a mainly by-product rather than an adaptationist theory but Pascal Boyer has unfortunately looked at the problem from a mainly cognitive science perspective on religious belief rather than examining religion in its social context, had he done so I can't see how anyone would not come to the conclusion that, Islam, for example, but most enduring religions in general, are highly adaptive at the group-level. One amazon reviewer has picked up on this weakness and has written a hilarious review that is very pertinent to our discussion here. Dennis Littrell writes:

Boyer sees religion as a by-product of the way our minds have evolved. His "explanation"--laboriously presented in a most excruciatingly detailed manner--left this reader exhausted and a little annoyed. Much would have been gained had the text been reduced by perhaps two thirds. Although Boyer writes in a clear manner, the tedious qualifications and the needless repetitions make the book exasperating to read.

But that's just the minor problem. The major problem is that after all these words, Boyer does not really explain much at all. Clearly religion of one form or another is found in virtually all human societies. Consequently it doesn't take a very sophisticated deduction to conclude that we believe the things we believe because our minds work that way. Religion is part of human nature, hard-wired to some very real extent in our brains similar to the way grammar is. What needs explaining is how religion is adaptive. If it didn't somehow increase our ability to survive and reproduce--that is, make us more fit--it would not be universal.

This is the key that Boyer marches around, hovers over, and, alas, misses. As famed biologist Edward O. Wilson wrote, "When the gods are served, the Darwinian fitness of the members of the tribe is the ultimate if unrecognized beneficiary." (On Human Nature (1978) p. 184)

But just how does religion increase the fitness of the members of the tribe? By making them accept their lot on earth because they will get their reward in the hereafter? As Boyer points out, this can't be the answer--at least not the entire answer--since some religions don't have a hereafter. How about increasing the coalition among members of the tribe thereby increasing cooperation and mutual trust? I think this is on the right track. If the tribe works together toward a common goal, the tribe will be more effective in dealing with the environment, and the tribe will increase. But what is the most important and demanding aspect of the human tribal environment? Other tribes!

This brings us to what I think Boyer missed entirely: the war system. Religion, because it persuades people to believe in things greater than themselves, facilitates the kind of fearlessness that is most effective in killing members of the other tribe. A tribe that has a ferocious leader who is followed as one might follow a god, or one of god's representatives, is a more effective fighting unit than a tribe that doesn't have that kind of cohesiveness. If a belief system can get the young males of the tribe to lay down their lives for the good of the tribe, that tribe will take over the rich valley, the land of milk and honey, and the less fit tribe will go into the mountains or perish.

If the leader of the tribe can get the tribe to see that a victory over the enemy is God's will or that God or the spirits or the angels are on the side of the chosen tribe, so much the better. To make this work people have to be able to believe in things not seen or understood, things that go bump in the night, things mysterious, frightening, things brought forth by the shaman amid smoke and ritual...

So there is indeed an element of truth in what you say: clearly the jihadist movement self-selects for certain traits just as say, for example a Physics doctorate degree self-selects for traits such as high intelligence and mathematical aptitude in that only people with those traits are capable of doing that activity or would even want to, so too very likely are the ISIS jihadists (and not merely angry Sunni tribals) as a group likely particularly genetically prone to traits associated with jihadist activity. Traits such as religiosity at the fanatic extreme, violent and psychopathic personality, low intelligence, groupishness and so on would be predominantly self-selected by the jihadist movement -traits that certainly do seem to make for good 7th century warriors.

Nevertheless, do you want to know about a force with greater unifying powers than even religion? Ever asked yourself why the Jews, unlike the Christians and Muslims, have so persistently enjoyed group cohesion throughout history? Or ever wondered why even Islam enjoyed its zenith in group cohesion in its early days when it was more or less an Arabic ethno-religion -only to descend into the mawali system, schism, sectarianism, etc by the time the non-Arabs came to make up a large proportion of Muslims? The answer to all of these questions is the same: ethnocentrism. The ultimate unifying power of all is pure ethnic tribalism, common blood, shared genes (related to kin-selection, see the ethnic phenomenon by Van Den Berghe). After the early days of Islam, after your religion became an ethnically heterogeneous one, it could never unify its adherent populations except in a higher-order group conflict (e.g. against Christian Europe) and even that would be only temporary, that is no coincidence and it is the reason why unification of the Islamic world in the name of Islam probably isn't going to be happening ever again.

By the way, you are wrong, the most effective fighting unit in Syria currently are the Kurds who are more or less winning against your Islamists and jihadists and they are fighting for their ethnic interests alone.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Syrian_...013-present%29

The Kurds won't be the last Sunni peoples to ultimately reject Islamic unification the way you Islamists want it. If you wanted all-encompassing group cohesion you should have kept the religion an ethnic one like Judaism is.

[JAMALUDEEN]

[Badlun]

Hehehe I suppose that is RTR huh? Well believe what you want, my jihadist friend. My time left here is very short and when I leave, I think youll be convinced that I am not RTR but do remember our intellectual bet: in that other thread, we pitted worldviews against each other via predictions, my interpretation of evolutionary theory vs your brand of the mythology of Islam.

The scientific fact of evolution vs the mythology of Islam, here were our predictions:

Scientific fact of evolution: the ME will balkanize along ethnic lines first and foremost (the triumph of kin selection over Islam) and possibly along sectarian lines second (the triumph of group selection over Islam, ironic since Islam is a form of group selection itself).

Mythology of Islam: the ME, parts of Asia and Europe will be conquered by the Islamic state.

Ill be gone but keep our bet in mind, see for yourself how evolutionary theory falsifies your religion.

I think your prediction has already taken place. ME is already divided in small states and monarchies. There is no Islamic caliphate any where. This ISIS is an aberration and a guest of few months or years like Taliban in Afghanistan. Islam is for mosque not for the state.

Do not go anywhere. We are learning a lot in your august company.

[Badlun]

[MENTION=17960]Herat[/MENTION]
Why you do not prefer nationalism to ethnocentrism? Nation state is already a reality but ethnicity/race based states are still beyond reality.

Also I would like to know your ideas on the difference between race and ethnicity. For some people both are the same and the bad name attached with race will be soon attached to ethnicity too and thus a preferable option is nation not race or ethnicity.

For me the middle way is always good. Race or ethnicity is one extreme for political grouping and religion is another extreme. Nation is the golden mean.

[Herat]

@Herat
Why you do not prefer nationalism to ethnocentrism? Nation state is already a reality but ethnicity/race based states are still beyond reality.

Also I would like to know your ideas on the difference between race and ethnicity. For some people both are the same and the bad name attached with race will be soon attached to ethnicity too and thus a preferable option is nation not race or ethnicity.

For me the middle way is always good. Race or ethnicity is one extreme for political grouping and religion is another extreme. Nation is the golden mean.

I am an ethnic nationalist, Badlun my friend: I believe that the only natural "nation" is an ethnic/kinship group; throwing in different sects and ethnics of people with incompatible group interests into competition in a single state inherently entails long-run instability. This whole idealistic farce of "pluralism" and "multiculturalism" that now plagues the west works in the real world about as well as a utopian ethnically heterogeneous Islamic caliphate does, as can easily be seen from Europes "Muslim problem". It just doesn't work Badlun sahab because different peoples have fundamentally different interests and ways of life that will guarantee group zero-sum games over economic and political resources (one groups gain is anothers loss).