Egypt is facing a new Islamist insurgency

[Friend]

Badlun's arguments have been refuted by RTR and Barakzai so many times so badly but he is deaf, dumb, blind. He will never accept the truth because he an educated illiterate guy.

[Badlun]

What is Islam? What are 5 pillars of Islam? What is Iman e Mukamal y Mujmal(Amant u Billah). How beliefs in an unseen God, angels, paradise, hell, judgement day, holy books, illiterate prophets, prayers can be rational?

Religion is based on revelation(wahi) from an unseen God to a prophet by an angel. All these are neither rational nor scientific. Its just faith, emotion, sentiment, love. I do not see any reason in it. Yes heart has a reason which reason cannot understand. It is beyond the human reason.

You just believe, you do not need to rationalize your beliefs otherwise you will never believe in unseen , metaphysical, abstract, occult , spiritual, celestial beings.

This is why religion is for your spiritual, moral and metaphysical part of life but it will always be a failure if you apply it on politics, economics, philosophy, science and culture. The case of Egypt is a clear manifestation of this premise.

[Badlun]

A good article on the situation in Egypt

In recent weeks, the Pakistani media has published various commentaries written on Egyptian crisis in support of Muslim Brotherhood(MB), highlighting the atrocities going on in Egypt committed by the army allegedly with the support of the West.

With due respect to all these authors, supporting the Muslim Brotherhood and bashing the west, their analyses reminded of a famous quote by Gerlad Celente, an American trend forecaster, where he claimed that, “I’m a political atheist: I don’t believe in political religions nor do I bow to political gods.” For readers, or American his followers, the quote may carry many meanings, but, in short, it sends a simple message: Politics and religion don’t mix.

Egypt is indeed going through a severe crisis and conflict, where both official and unofficial sources have confirmed deaths of scores of Egyptians – which is indeed condemnable and unacceptable. But is it wise to start playing the Muslim or Western Conspiracy card at this time, undermining the hundreds of thousands who protested for the ousting of Morsi?

First of all, let us analyse some facts:

• The Muslim Brotherhood won the elections by a slight margin of 51.7% to 48.3% in the final stage, where as only bagging 25% of the total votes in the first phase. Morsi was contesting against an ex-regime contestant, which gave him the edge of being a “new candidate”. Thus, the theory floated in these analyses of him being a widely popular leader, and the MB a widely popular party, isn’t completely true.

• The United States was the first major supporter of Morsi’s government giving the Muslim Brotherhood its full backing and approving financial aid for the country, so the West supported the MB.

• Those who are treating as a complete Islamic State fail realise that the country has a greater influence of secularism compared many Muslim countries. Egypt’s long term fruitful ties with Israel are a good example of that.

• Morsi, against the people’s expectations, started acting in the same dictatorial manner as Mubarak and passed a decree that put him above the law. This was one of the many reasons his own voters turned against him.

• More than 47 Churches have been burnt, destroyed, or looted during the conflict, making the Co-opts as equal victims, and for sure, the attackers weren’t non-Muslims from the West. And thus the Muslims are not the lone victims.

Never would this article, through any reason, support dictatorships in any situation but the aforementioned instances would help in setting the facts straight to help understand as to why the second uprising in Egypt occurred resulting in chaos.

Amid all these developments, the protests arranged by religious parties in many Muslims countries, especially Pakistan, for Morsi, MB and democracy and against the Egyptian military and the West, are also worth mentioning . Such demonstrations coming from parties, such as Jamaat e Islami and Jamiat e Ulema e Islam, which have remained avid supporters of dictatorships in the past is somehow baffling.

A further saddening fact is when in Pakistan or other Muslim states, the common people – including minorities or people from other sects – are killed by militants, none of these parties come forward to protest against the known culprits. On the other hand, such parties have also shied away from condemning the Saudi Arabia and United Arab Emirates who have announced their support for the Egyptian dictatorship, coupled with announcing multi-billion dollar aid packages.

It’s good to protest against the massacre going on in another country, especially when the victims are considered as our own Muslim brothers. What’s wrong in such protests is the discrepancy and the double standards resulting in ignorance of atrocities occurring at home.

Why can’t the same people protest in the same manner when our Shia brothers and sisters are bombed and assassinated on the name of religion? Why can’t we be equally vocal and come forward for the Christians, and other non Muslims whose places of worship are burnt on allegations of Blasphemy? Why do we, on these instances, forget to use the Islamic narrative and don’t mention the letter written by the Prophet Muhammad to the Christian Monks at Mt. Sinai, assuring them security of their Cathedrals? And why, above all, do we forget the fact that more than the west, it’s us, the prime elements of conspiracies against our own selves?

The West may have different standards for Democracy when it comes to Muslims, but as Muslims do we have the same standards for humanity and human lives? For that purpose, let us leave the Egyptian uprising as a normal political process, that they would go through, and thus would need our lecturing on whether to allow a dictator or not? It’s their country, they would manage, let us focus on our own, and set our own house in order first.

http://blogs.thenews.com.pk/blogs/2013/09/egypt-protests-exposing-our-double-standards/

[Shah-i-Kot]

A good article on the situation in Egypt

In recent weeks, the Pakistani media has published various commentaries written on Egyptian crisis in support of Muslim Brotherhood(MB), highlighting the atrocities going on in Egypt committed by the army allegedly with the support of the West.

With due respect to all these authors, supporting the Muslim Brotherhood and bashing the west, their analyses reminded of a famous quote by Gerlad Celente, an American trend forecaster, where he claimed that, “I’m a political atheist: I don’t believe in political religions nor do I bow to political gods.” For readers, or American his followers, the quote may carry many meanings, but, in short, it sends a simple message: Politics and religion don’t mix.

Egypt is indeed going through a severe crisis and conflict, where both official and unofficial sources have confirmed deaths of scores of Egyptians – which is indeed condemnable and unacceptable. But is it wise to start playing the Muslim or Western Conspiracy card at this time, undermining the hundreds of thousands who protested for the ousting of Morsi?

First of all, let us analyse some facts:

• The Muslim Brotherhood won the elections by a slight margin of 51.7% to 48.3% in the final stage, where as only bagging 25% of the total votes in the first phase. Morsi was contesting against an ex-regime contestant, which gave him the edge of being a “new candidate”. Thus, the theory floated in these analyses of him being a widely popular leader, and the MB a widely popular party, isn’t completely true.

Buddy, the Muslim Brotherhood won the election. You got it right. A democratic election. You can bring 10 million people to Washington DC demanding that Obama step down as president. Does that mean that the majority of Americans who elected Obama want him to step down? No.

Elections in democracies do not work like that- losers have to wait a set period of time for the next elections. You cant just bring a mob on the streets, and demand that the elected government step down, and then say this is in the name of democracy. Its not- its against democratic process.

• The United States was the first major supporter of Morsi’s government giving the Muslim Brotherhood its full backing and approving financial aid for the country, so the West supported the MB.

Sure, the United States has its security interests in ensuring a stable Egypt, first and foremost, for transit rights through the Suez Canal which Egypt controls. However, it was not amenable to a MB government, giving the edge to the Egyptian military as a counteracting force. US military aid is still flowing the Egyptian Army.



Secondly, for the last 30-40 years, the US foreign policy has oversaw the support of Hosni Mubarak and the the Egyptian military which led a harsh crackdown on the Muslim Brotherhood- a political and popular party. Because the MB was a threat to the Egyptian Army control over the country, i

• Those who are treating as a complete Islamic State fail realise that the country has a greater influence of secularism compared many Muslim countries. Egypt’s long term fruitful ties with Israel are a good example of that.

You got to be conveniently blind to the facts. The majority of Egyptians are rural and conservative. The minority is secular, and if you didnt know- the Tamarod movement which is secular, is gathering new momentum around a cancelling of the Security Treaty with Israel. The Tamarod leader is now saying that the Egyptian Army must cancel the treaty

• Morsi, against the people’s expectations, started acting in the same dictatorial manner as Mubarak and passed a decree that put him above the law. This was one of the many reasons his own voters turned against him.

This is false. Morsi was anything but dictatorial. In fact, he was a soft leader and too accommodating to the secular opposition (which LOST the election). He gave them seats, when they should have been locked up for inciting violence against the elected government. This accommodating outlook cost him and his party. Like Erdogan, Morsi should have had all the top generals arrested overnight, and put them on trial for planning a coup (which they were). Erdogan has a complete control of the Turkish military, elevating those generals which are more in tune with his vision.

Never would this article, through any reason, support dictatorships in any situation but the aforementioned instances would help in setting the facts straight to help understand as to why the second uprising in Egypt occurred resulting in chaos.

But when you support the removal of an elected government led by Morsi, and its subsequent replacement with a Banana style republic headed by a new thug Sisi, you are supporting dictatorship. You cant conveniently separate the two.



The rest of what you said is fairly repetitive, and nonsensical. Why are Muslims (in Egypt) not protesting the unfortunate attacks on Copts? Well, these same Egyptian Muslims are being massacred by the Sisi-led military regime which is being cheered on by the secular Egyptians.

What exactly do you expect them to do to protest the attacks on Copts? They are are getting massacred and killed by the Egyptian Army. They cant even live peacefully.

[Shah-i-Kot]

Egypt is indeed going through a severe crisis and conflict, where both official and unofficial sources have confirmed deaths of scores of Egyptians – which is indeed condemnable and unacceptable. But is it wise to start playing the Muslim or Western Conspiracy card at this time, undermining the hundreds of thousands who protested for the ousting of Morsi?

First of all, let us analyse some facts:

• The Muslim Brotherhood won the elections by a slight margin of 51.7% to 48.3% in the final stage, where as only bagging 25% of the total votes in the first phase. Morsi was contesting against an ex-regime contestant, which gave him the edge of being a “new candidate”. Thus, the theory floated in these analyses of him being a widely popular leader, and the MB a widely popular party, isn’t completely true.

69% of Egyptians are opposed to the military coup of Morsi.

http://www.middleeastmonitor.com/news/africa/6850-study-shows-opposition-to-morsi-ouster-rises-to-69

http://www.middleeastmonitor.com/news/africa/6543-report-shows-that-most-egyptians-oppose-morsis-removal

Majority of Egyptians are opposed to the coup

• Those who are treating as a complete Islamic State fail realise that the country has a greater influence of secularism compared many Muslim countries. Egypt’s long term fruitful ties with Israel are a good example of that.

The secular opposition group Tamarod which was behind the mob presence that ousted Morsi is calling for the canceling of the security treaty and ties with Israel. You are wrong.

[RevolutionThroughReason]

I didn't read what that desperate desert camel has to say. But bringing up Africa, a continet that was totaly merginalized and plundert by colonist is somehow an example for the world. And even if it failed there, that means the peopel failed it themselfs, not becuase of the systme, there are good examples of secular democratic nations in Asia and South Areica and even some other African countries where it is working just fine. Look at muslim states, that says more than enough. And where is the fine example of wel functioning Sharia based Islamic state?

Secularism and Democraty will be the norm, even if you sand niggahs worshippers like it or not

Calling hime names and what not is not debunking his argument. The only fact that mojority of the world countries, plus the countries who has the best standart of live are secular is anough to shut your wahabist mouth about your Islamic utophia.....

LOL
But seriously;l I do understand why you avoid me and just resort to name calling. My Arguments are based on Logic and I have easily refuted and exposed the logical inaccuracies of your claims in the past.

South Africa is mainly in the control of Dutch Afrikaans even NOW. South Africa has one of the worlds worst AIDS epidemics EVEN now. The Wealth is in the hands of Dutch Colonialists as 62% of the Native Black Africans are in poverty. Perfect example of HOW secularism has gone wrong there. When you're second class to your own country.

You said it yourself Africa in shambles due to colonialists plundering and marginalizing Africa; and what are the former colonialist societies promoting now? Secularism. The only wealthy secular countries were the former colonialists; how did they get that way? well by plundering. You basically confessed the real success of secularism; plundering and turmoil.

And one more thing we're not Sand ****** worshipers; you're just a House Slave of Europeans.

[Friend]

LOL
But seriously;l I do understand why you avoid me and just resort to name calling. My Arguments are based on Logic and I have easily refuted and exposed the logical inaccuracies of your claims in the past.

South Africa is mainly in the control of Dutch Afrikaans even NOW. South Africa has one of the worlds worst AIDS epidemics EVEN now. The Wealth is in the hands of Dutch Colonialists as 62% of the Native Black Africans are in poverty. Perfect example of HOW secularism has gone wrong there. When you're second class to your own country.

You said it yourself Africa in shambles due to colonialists plundering and marginalizing Africa; and what are the former colonialist societies promoting now? S7ecularism. The only wealthy secular countries were the former colonialists; how did they get that way? well by plundering. You basically confessed the real success of secularism; plundering and turmoil.

And one more thing we're not Sand ****** worshipers; you're just a House Slave of Europeans.

He was living like a king in Afghanistan but still unhappy. Now in europe he cleaning toilets but still happy because of having slave mind.

[Khostai]

Once a desert camel would alwasy stay a desert camel, worshiping some sand niggahs. Good look with you failed state of Yemen who is so poor that it even don't have water to cultivate there lands becuase they used it all on cat production.

[RevolutionThroughReason]

Nah Khostai; that's just the House Slave brainwashing that makes you think to help keep you as their slave; your anger is at the wrong people; it should be toward the people who are strangling you with their chains.

Yemen is a secular state by the way; so you're actually proving my point once again.