Iranian cargo plane shot down over Damascus airport

[RevolutionThroughReason]

None of them are dictatorships, and all are becoming more liberal than ever, the so called Islamisation of Turkey is a joke, like Erdogan gona stay for ever on power, afer he is gone the other will turn back his policies around....
And by the way Saudi is not secular but is a dictatorship likewise Iran and other small arab states, you just hear nothing from them becuase they are rich and are friends with the west......

Like I said dictatorship be it Islamic or secular are both gona fail.

Who are you trying to convince here? me or yourself?

Erdogan and his party are in power because most of the rural people voted him; Real Secularists in Turkey are an extreme minority; Secularists only held power in Turkey because they were ruled by a DICTATORSHIP and held power by force. So it won't "turn back to old policies" if you believe that you know nothing about the sociology of Turkey.

Saudi is essentially puppet regime of Western countries and Western Countries are Secularists; more evidence of Why Secularism does not work for Muslims. They help prop regimes like Saudiyah.

As for Malaysia; keep abreast of current events please

http://www.aljazeera.com/indepth/features/2013/02/201321092433869462.html

[Khostai]

Who are you trying to convince here? me or yourself?

Erdogan and his party are in power because most of the rural people voted him; Real Secularists in Turkey are an extreme minority; Secularists only held power in Turkey because they were ruled by a DICTATORSHIP and held power by force. So it won't "turn back to old policies" if you believe that you know nothing about the sociology of Turkey.

Saudi is essentially puppet regime of Western countries and Western Countries are Secularists; more evidence of Why Secularism does not work for Muslims. They help prop regimes like Saudiyah.

As for Malaysia; keep abreast of current events please

http://www.aljazeera.com/indepth/fea...433869462.html

No Saudi, Iran and taliban are the major examples of Islamic dictatirships. As long as Turkey constitutional law is secular the country will stay secular small ****y propagand from Erdogan would't change that much.
I am right, you just can't see the bigger picture, secularism will prevail and will be dominant across the world( like it is now) and in the muslim countries.
Social democrats and secularists were the only one and even now who care about peopel well being, education and health all the other so called Islamic politiciens doe nothing like in Afghanistan. Waging war against communism do defend Islam and when they came to power the only thing that they do is eat and drink and take money from the poor.
I know you don't belive it, but you were also the same person who was oke whith stoning peopel.....so -_-

[RevolutionThroughReason]

No Saudi, Iran and taliban are the major examples of Islamic dictatirships. As long as Turkey constitutional law is secular the country will stay secular small ****y propagand from Erdogan would't change that much.
I am right, you just can't see the bigger picture, secularism will prevail and will be dominant across the world( like it is now) and in the muslim countries.
Social democrats and secularists were the only one and even now who care about peopel well being, education and health all the other so called Islamic politiciens doe nothing like in Afghanistan. Waging war against communism do defend Islam and when they came to power the only thing that they do is eat and drink and take money from the poor.
I know you don't belive it, but you were also the same person who was oke whith stoning peopel.....so -_-

Sure maybe secularism may stay in NAME; but in ground reality which is where it counts things will change. We're in 2013, people learned to adapt and manuver around things very easily. As long as the rural population are the majority then secularists will always remain sidelined. Then Turkey can elevate the rural population through an education system which promotes an Islamic world view so when they advance out of rural society they'll be psychologically inocculated against secularist worldview.

And it's not true that secularists cared about healthcre and well being; Secularists collaborated with the Russians to destroy water channels and irrigation as a way of starving people It was a tool of intimidation to discourage people from joining with the Mujahideen. This is well documented as well. So it is a complete lie that secularists cared about healthcare and welfare.

Besides Islam had zakat and sadaqah already embedded in its ideological structure; it took Secularists 1,400 years to figure out that society needs social protections and welfare?

As for what the Taliban did, this is more due to Secular states because remember they were agents and working on behalf of secular regimes. So once again the blame falls on secularism.

The reason why secularism will not "take over the world" as you believe is because Secularists are out of touch with their societies; they Think what works in Europe and America will work in Afghanistan or in Egypt They don't understand that Secularism depended a lot on the cultural mentality of Europeans and Americans and that same mentality does not exist everywhere else.

[Khostai]

Sure maybe secularism may stay in NAME; but in ground reality which is where it counts things will change. We're in 2013, people learned to adapt and manuver around things very easily. As long as the rural population are the majority then secularists will always remain sidelined. Then Turkey can elevate the rural population through an education system which promotes an Islamic world view so when they advance out of rural society they'll be psychologically inocculated against secularist worldview.

Turkey rural population is declining. Such system will not come becuase the current constitution is against it. It will not stay in name. Mojority of the world countries are secular in nature or are becoming secularised.

And it's not true that secularists cared about healthcre and well being; Secularists collaborated with the Russians to destroy water channels and irrigation as a way of starving people It was a tool of intimidation to discourage people from joining with the Mujahideen. This is well documented as well. So it is a complete lie that secularists cared about healthcare and welfare.

LOL Mujhahids and taliban also blowed peopel up. And taliban deleiberatly refused foreign help, what led to starvation and dead to peopel in already devasted country. And yes this is also documented, and look at those holly wariors whith there fat bellys siting in parlimet when the countries poor peopel are suffering.

Besides Islam had zakat and sadaqah already embedded in its ideological structure; it took Secularists 1,400 years to figure out that society needs social protections and welfare?

So what? The persians also helped the poor and the needy, they were actualy the first who had made laws than can be seen as the first welfare laws. Way ahead of Islam. And that laws were not made out of religious belive.

As for what the Taliban did, this is more due to Secular states because remember they were agents and working on behalf of secular regimes. So once again the blame falls on secularism.

Or now they are agents of the secular west.... -_- What happend to the idea of the nobel freedom fighter????

The reason why secularism will not "take over the world" as you believe is because Secularists are out of touch with their societies; they Think what works in Europe and America will work in Afghanistan or in Egypt They don't understand that Secularism depended a lot on the cultural mentality of Europeans and Americans and that same mentality does not exist everywhere else.

No they are not. Majority of the world countries are secular or becoming secular, and even those muslims countries who claim to be Islamic are no better that Western Europe and it just time before they seperate religion from politics. The only one who is totaly out of touch whith reality are the so called Islamic politiecians.

[RevolutionThroughReason]

Turkey's rural population is declining? Perhaps but not fast enough Look at the city population: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_cities_in_Turkey
Doesn't even add up to 12 million. and Turkey's population is above 75 Million; Again this is a case of you trying to convince yourself.

Taliban and Mujahideen; again they were agents of secularist states like the U.S. ; it all goes back to secular institutions. And by saying "they also did it" means you're admitting the Secularists in Afghanistan were responsible for treachery and being collaborators with foreign secular powers.

Persians had welfare; of course but we're not talking about reviving ancient persia we're talking about secularism; The point being that there is no social; benefit that secularism has that isn't already in Islam. So your point was irrelevant.

I NEVER said Taliban were freedom fighters; You know that I am not a Taliban supporter; that's what I'm saying secularists such as yourself are totally ignorant and uneducated on what you're talking about; you don't even know the difference between Ikhwan Al Muslimeen and Taliban you think they have the exact same outlook just because both advocate Islamic social governance.

Get better informed first then debate me.

As for your last sentence; all you're doing is living in denial and regugitating your thesis; you have not advanced any new information which will validate your argument You're an example of why secularism is out of touch with Muslim societies and thus cannot work.

[Khostai]

Turkey's rural population is declining? Perhaps but not fast enough Look at the city population: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_cities_in_Turkey
Doesn't even add up to 12 million. and Turkey's population is above 75 Million; Again this is a case of you trying to convince yourself.

Oh please using wiki as rlibel source lol. Who is out of touch from reality here.
Turkey rural population is 21 milion estimated in 2011.
The rest are living in smal or bigger towns. And here is the source and you can google it there are a lot of other sources confirming it. http://www.indexmundi.com/facts/turkey/rural-population

Taliban and Mujahideen; again they were agents of secularist states like the U.S. ; it all goes back to secular institutions. And by saying "they also did it" means you're admitting the Secularists in Afghanistan were responsible for treachery and being collaborators with foreign secular powers.

Ow when muslims are doing something wrong it was not there fualt it was al becuase of those veil secular westerners that manipulated them, what happend to the crirtical thinking and admiting your own mistakes? Or it doesn't aply to your mullahs? And by the way PAkis and Arabs also contrubuted a lot fo the forming of this groups. And I can say the same about the old secular regime of Afghanistan, that they don't reprecent the true secularists and secularists never blew up bridges or road and canals, that was the job of the Islamist. Who quite enjoid it.

Persians had welfare; of course but we're not talking about reviving ancient persia we're talking about secularism; The point being that there is no social; benefit that secularism has that isn't already in Islam. So your point was irrelevant.

It has a social benefit. With secularism no Shia or Sunni gona force the other to act or do as the other pleases, no one is gona force you to belive in something you don't like.

I NEVER said Taliban were freedom fighters; You know that I am not a Taliban supporter; that's what I'm saying secularists such as yourself are totally ignorant and uneducated on what you're talking about; you don't even know the difference between Ikhwan Al Muslimeen and Taliban you think they have the exact same outlook just because both advocate Islamic social governance.

And you don't know the difrence between the secularists of today who want democracy social liberty and development, you constanly bring up old communist regime of PDPA up like I was member of that pary, when in fact most of us were not even born at that time......

Get better informed first then debate me.

As for your last sentence; all you're doing is living in denial and regugitating your thesis; you have not advanced any new information which will validate your argument You're an example of why secularism is out of touch with Muslim societies and thus cannot work.

I am quite informed about the world and know that secular democracy will prevail, you are the one lving in your fantasy world and dreaming about Islamic renaicance......

[Manzareh]

I am quite informed about the world and know that secular democracy will prevail, you are the one lving in your fantasy world and dreaming about Islamic renaicance......

And you don't know the difrence between the secularists of today who want democracy social liberty and development, you constanly bring up old communist regime of PDPA up like I was member of that pary, when in fact most of us were not even born at that time......

You mean secularists in Egypt at this moment in time that have overthrown a democratically elected leader and now are opening fire at crowds of women and children? Or the secularists of Syria massacring the entire population on a full scale offensive to anyone not in favour of secularism? What about secular Russia in Chechnya against non-secularists minding their own business. Actually, how can you even ignore the worldwide wars being waged by secularists in Iraq, Afghanistan. What next, your going to say secularists are peaceful? Smell the coffee.

[RevolutionThroughReason]

@ Khostai i

f you look down on thw Wikipedia page it has all the population citations. You can't use the wikipedia excuse here. Wikipedia is only unacceptable in Academic Papers BUT CITATION links on Wikipedia can be used; we're having informal debate on a forum. And furthermore this is an issue which is THOROUGHLY attached to citations on Wikipedia; If it was a Wiki page with "disputed" information which would be on the Top bar of the Wiki page then you'd have a point.

Furthermore your 2011 estimate has NO citation in your link what so ever. In this instance Index Mundi is basically a version of Wikipedia except worse ....No one ever gives citations for the information. Your argument lacks merit there

Furthermore it is easy to disprove because if Most of the population was Urban; then Turkey would have some of the most densely populated Urban areas in the world and Turkey is nowhere near that. Your argument fails by demographic analysis.

About the second point; of course when Muslims do something wrong it is their fault; BUT THAT isn't the point we're debating. The argument is ...is it the fault of Islamic Government or the Fault of Secularism. In the case of the Taliban it is secularism; Taliban are byproduct of secular institutions nurturing and cultivating corrupted extremist views.

About your third point ; of course you're right, when Attaturkishs took power they killed Shi'a and Sunni equally so of course so there was no more sectarianism ...jjust Muslims versus traitors. I guess this is what you mean by social benefit?

Fourth point; I was raised knowing the Difference, I was raised in America the Mother of Secularism And for American society secularism is fine; it fits their culture. The same cannot be said about the Muslim world

Secularism is European and should stay with Europeans or their cultural extensions like America, Australia and so on. Keep it there.

[Khostai]

@ Khostai i

f you look down on thw Wikipedia page it has all the population citations. You can't use the wikipedia excuse here. Wikipedia is only unacceptable in Academic Papers BUT CITATION links on Wikipedia can be used; we're having informal debate on a forum. And furthermore this is an issue which is THOROUGHLY attached to citations on Wikipedia; If it was a Wiki page with "disputed" information which would be on the Top bar of the Wiki page then you'd have a point.

Furthermore your 2011 estimate has NO citation in your link what so ever. In this instance Index Mundi is basically a version of Wikipedia except worse ....No one ever gives citations for the information. Your argument lacks merit there

Furthermore it is easy to disprove because if Most of the population was Urban; then Turkey would have some of the most densely populated Urban areas in the world and Turkey is nowhere near that. Your argument fails by demographic analysis.

About the second point; of course when Muslims do something wrong it is their fault; BUT THAT isn't the point we're debating. The argument is ...is it the fault of Islamic Government or the Fault of Secularism. In the case of the Taliban it is secularism; Taliban are byproduct of secular institutions nurturing and cultivating corrupted extremist views.

About your third point ; of course you're right, when Attaturkishs took power they killed Shi'a and Sunni equally so of course so there was no more sectarianism ...jjust Muslims versus traitors. I guess this is what you mean by social benefit?

Fourth point; I was raised knowing the Difference, I was raised in America the Mother of Secularism And for American society secularism is fine; it fits their culture. The same cannot be said about the Muslim world

Secularism is European and should stay with Europeans or their cultural extensions like America, Australia and so on. Keep it there.

Its like talking to wal -_-. No and no, secularists will prevail and your fantasy of Islamic goverment will fade away. You will realise this soon.
Secularism will come to muslim nation becuase muslims want it themself. Its already happening.

[RevolutionThroughReason]

Its like talking to wal -_-. No and no, secularists will prevail and your fantasy of Islamic goverment will fade away. You will realise this soon.
Secularism will come to muslim nation becuase muslims want it themself. Its already happening.

LOL of course it must feel that way for you because your points are weak so when weak points go against strong points it's like they're being smashed against a wall.

Secularism came to Muslim nations; Muslim nations rejected it. Only way secularism can work in Muslim countries is if you force it on people like Turkey and Egypt.

Hence why every secular leader has been a dictator.

[Khostai]

LOL of course it must feel that way for you because your points are weak so when weak points go against strong points it's like they're being smashed against a wall.

Secularism came to Muslim nations; Muslim nations rejected it. Only way secularism can work in Muslim countries is if you force it on people like Turkey and Egypt.

Hence why every secular leader has been a dictator.

If that makes you sleep better at night, you can belive in that.

[RevolutionThroughReason]

If that makes you sleep better at night, you can belive in that.

You'll never be able to keep secularism in Muslim societies except by force and Western backing.

[Khostai]

You'll never be able to keep secularism in Muslim societies except by force and Western backing.

Nope, secularism will come like a cold breese on hot summer day. That will cool down the masses and will bring peace, development and stability.

[RevolutionThroughReason]

Nope, secularism will come like a cold breese on hot summer day. That will cool down the masses and will bring peace, development and stability.

Yeah we saw that cold breeze between 1970-1991, 4 million dead and 4 million displaced. I think you can keep your cool breeze; we already saw its effects

but why do you care? You're a European now, blend in with them. change your name to Thomas or something.

[RevolutionThroughReason]

lol he cant blend in europeans, khosti people are dark skinned

There's always Fair and Lovely