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  • At least 1 in 5 drone strike victims a confirmed civilian – leaked Pakistani records

    At least 1 in 5 drone strike victims a confirmed civilian – leaked Pakistani records

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    Published time: July 22, 2013 20:04
    Pakistani protesters from the United Citizen Action torch a US flag against US drone attacks in the Pakistani tribal areas during a protest in Multan on July 14, 2013.(AFP Photo / S.S Mirza)



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    Afghanistan, CIA, Drones, Obama, Pakistan, Terrorism

    Leaked internal data produced by Pakistani officials documenting drone strikes on the ground reveal a high civilian death toll, countering US claims that the targeted assassination campaign results in “exceedingly rare” fatalities.
    A 12-page report, titled ‘Details of Attacks by NATO Forces/Predators in FATA (Federally Administered Tribal Areas)’ describes 75 CIA drone attacks between 2006 and 2009, with death tolls compiled by officials in the turbulent border regions for internal use by the government. The Bureau of Investigative Journalism – a UK news website – says it obtained three identical copies of the classified document from various sources in Pakistan.
    The numbers show a death toll of 746 people, 147 of whom were confirmed as civilians. Of those civilian deaths, 94 are children. Statistically, it means at least one in five victims of US precision strikes was a civilian, and more than 12 per cent were minors.

    Pakistani tribesmen gather for funeral prayers before the coffins of people allegedly killed in a US drone attack, claiming that innocent civilians were killed during a June 15 strike in the North Waziristan village of Tapi, 10 kilometers away from Miranshah, on June 16, 2011 (AFP Photo)

    “There was no benefit in officials ‘cooking the books’ here, since this document was clearly never intended to be seen outside the civilian administration,” said Rauf Khan Khattak, who recently served as Pakistan’s interim finance minister.
    The US President and the CIA do not have to disclose details of what is officially considered a classified program to Senate or to the public, so official American estimates have never been released. CIA Director John Brennan, considered to be the architect of the drone program, has said that “we only authorize a strike if we have a high degree of confidence that innocent civilians will not be injured or killed, except in the rarest of circumstances,” and that collateral deaths themselves are “exceedingly rare.” And an internal incomplete official report leaked earlier this year – covering a later period – showed that the CIA thought that only one out of every 482 people it killed was a civilian.
    But the Pakistani numbers tally much closer with those provided by outside sources. The bipartisan New American Foundation estimates that at least 12 per cent of drone strike victims are definitely civilians, and the Bureau of Investigative Journalism itself claims the number could be as high as 25 per cent.
    Rauf Khan Khattak, a long-time opponent of foreign drone strikes, believes the newest figures could be the most reliable obtained so far.
    “What you end up with in these reports is reasonably accurate, because it comes from on-the-ground sources cultivated over many years. And the political agent is only interested in properly understanding what actually happened,” he told the Bureau of Investigative Journalism.
    But others have urged for these documents to be taken into consideration only when compared against other sources. For example, following Barack Obama’s inauguration in 2009, only three civilian death incidents are recorded through the year up until late October, when the data ends – even though media reports from the same time indicate that civilians and children had died in attacks included in the FATA document.

    “Tribal documents might present a broad picture. But any accuracy is dependent on what data the military chooses to release to or withhold from the political agents. In the last eight years, for example, no precise casualty figures have ever been submitted to Pakistan’s parliament,” said former FATA official and minister Rustan Shah Mohmand.
    Independent sources estimate that around 2,500 and perhaps more than 3,500 people have been killed in UAV strikes on Pakistan since 2004. Obama has ramped up the program significantly since coming into office.

    Supporters of Pakistani cricketer turned politician Imran Khan of Pakistan Tehreek-i-Insaaf (PTI - Movement for Justice) hold placards as they shout anti-US slogans during a protest in Islamabad.(AFP Photo / Aamir Qureshi)

    The difficulty in establishing the precise number of civilians among those is also compounded by the identity of the supposed militants and the CIA’s own targeting protocols , known as 'signature strikes'.
    Militants may simply be a villager engaged in an insurgency, and will have little to separate himself from a civilian, and vice versa. There is also little incentive for relatives to inform the authorities that any UAV strike victim is a militant, and much of the data is compiled on hearsay and local knowledge.
    In turn, the US has tacitly admitted that it picks the majority of its targets based on a pattern of behavior – suspicious movements, contact with established targets, attendance of training centers, and other indirect indicators. Drones sometimes target follow-up events that occur as a result of its previous strikes, such as funerals of past drone targets. The earlier leaked documents showed that out of the 482 people killed, only six were known al-Qaeda commanders.
    But even when taking all these variables into consideration and interpreting them in the most favorable light possible to the US, it is hard to agree with Obama’s recent assertion that the CIA has a "near-certainty that no civilians will be killed or injured" before each drone attack.

    At least 1 in 5 drone strike victims a confirmed civilian ? leaked Pakistani records ? RT News
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  • #2
    The other four are terrorist who deserve dying to safeguard secular education for elites daughters from wealthy parts of Pakistan.
    Originally posted by Firdousi
    Never talk with Afghans about politics. All their political knowledge is limited to conspiracy theories, political demonization and contradictions. No logic, no reason.

    Comment


    • #3
      no the majority are civilian. pak sources are a joke at best

      Comment


      • #4
        More like 4 in 5 are civilians at least. Sadly no one cares about these poor people to carry out proper investigation.

        Comment


        • #5
          Uh oh
          [MENTION=3642]Soldat_Amir[/MENTION] has logged in. Usually this means he is going to find a thread that details kharijaan related deaths and he will say something to the affect of:

          "Ooooooh, so why didn't you shed a tear when in wanaa mullah sangaal and an arab named Al lakibi shot three children for carrying pictures, simple pictures of elmo from sesamie street... hypocrasy"

          No Soldat, grow a brain. Its an entirely different matter when an outsider without any meme/genetic relation (race, phenotype, ideological) in any circumstance comes in and either insults or kills a local.

          That's exactly why liberal leaning congressman condemned Hugo Chavez's "Bush is the Devil" speech when he did it in NYC.

          Its exactly why if, in any nation, a military unit from an outside country killed locals for any reason, it would have a big backlash.

          Go read a sociology text or something to learn these basics.

          Its really no different than how Britain and other Western nations responded entirely differently to kin groups like the IRA and the Michigan Militan, KKK, etc than to middle eastern origin attacks.

          And please save me the "khob kasssaaaaaay" crap.

          If you don't have any evidence based or intelligence discussion to give forth that makes sense then go vent your nonsensical rage elsewhere.
          "2 crackheads don't become any better or stronger by sharing the same crack pipe." - Greatest PF quote

          Comment


          • #6
            [MENTION=1772]BarakzaiAbdali[/MENTION]
            Considering that the previous Pakistani government was in bed with the drones, is it fair to assume these drones are permitted and that the U.S is using its 'aid' as a blackmail tactic?
            Even Adobe Photoshop can't change me.

            A line[Durrand line] of hatred that raised a wall between the two brothers -Hamid Karzai

            For generations, the Hindus of India prayed for deliverance from "the venom of the cobra, the teeth of the tiger and the vengeance of the Afghan."


            The men of Kábul and Khilj also went home; and whenever they were questioned about the Musulmáns of the Kohistán (the mountains), and how matters stood there, they said, "Don't call it Kohistán, but Afghánistán; for there is nothing there but Afgháns and disturbances." Thus it is clear that for this reason the people of the country call their home in their own language Afghánistán, and themselves Afgháns. The people of India call them Patán; but the reason for this is not known. But it occurs to me, that when, under the rule of Muhammadan sovereigns, Musulmáns first came to the city of Patná, and dwelt there, the people of India (for that reason) called them Patáns—but God knows!

            -Ferishta, 1560–1620

            Comment


            • #7
              Musharaf actually requested the drones be used. it has nothing to do with the aid. The Pak gov talking against it is just PR and they later asked the US to train and equip the Pak army for drones.
              Imran khan and Nawaz sharif talking against it during their campaign is just to win over votes.

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by khushal View Post
                Musharaf actually requested the drones be used. it has nothing to do with the aid. The Pak gov talking against it is just PR and they later asked the US to train and equip the Pak army for drones.
                Imran khan and Nawaz sharif talking against it during their campaign is just to win over votes.
                Why wouldn't Musharraf use his PAF?
                Even Adobe Photoshop can't change me.

                A line[Durrand line] of hatred that raised a wall between the two brothers -Hamid Karzai

                For generations, the Hindus of India prayed for deliverance from "the venom of the cobra, the teeth of the tiger and the vengeance of the Afghan."


                The men of Kábul and Khilj also went home; and whenever they were questioned about the Musulmáns of the Kohistán (the mountains), and how matters stood there, they said, "Don't call it Kohistán, but Afghánistán; for there is nothing there but Afgháns and disturbances." Thus it is clear that for this reason the people of the country call their home in their own language Afghánistán, and themselves Afgháns. The people of India call them Patán; but the reason for this is not known. But it occurs to me, that when, under the rule of Muhammadan sovereigns, Musulmáns first came to the city of Patná, and dwelt there, the people of India (for that reason) called them Patáns—but God knows!

                -Ferishta, 1560–1620

                Comment


                • #9
                  he and his successor do use the PAF for strikes against the TTP but all it does is destroy whole villages just like the Soviets were doing in Afghanistan. The drones have something that PAF does not and that is the precision airstrike using GPS technology. PAF has requested the technology by arguing that its better PR for PAF to manage the drones.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Pakistan benefits from the war on Afghanistan. Even when masses protest against drones, still, Pakistan benefits.

                    Dont expect new goverment to change its relationship with America. As long as there is military and financial aid Pakistan will never dare to stop America from killing its citizens.
                    Originally posted by Firdousi
                    Never talk with Afghans about politics. All their political knowledge is limited to conspiracy theories, political demonization and contradictions. No logic, no reason.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Admin Khan View Post
                      [MENTION=1772]BarakzaiAbdali[/MENTION]
                      Considering that the previous Pakistani government was in bed with the drones, is it fair to assume these drones are permitted and that the U.S is using its 'aid' as a blackmail tactic?
                      I wouldn't even call it blackmail. I tend to think that there is a special agreement. The Pak military gets all kinds of shiny toys and killing machines to use to mow down its own people with the internal justification of some there that Pakistan must survive at all costs and any costs (even if it is the soul and autonomy of the nation that must be sold).

                      Up at Yale, one son of a Pak airforce general told me "You Afghans are so generous and so foolhardy at the same time." I asked why. He went on to tell me that the thought process there amongst secularist hard core Pakistan defense nationalists and Islamic oriented thinkers alike is the example of a

                      Mosquito (Pakistan) versus an Elephant (The US).

                      The mosquito, were it to ever face the elephant head on, would find itself smashed under the foot of the elephant.

                      So instead, the mosquito and his friends will silently sit all over the elephant, slowly engorge its life's blood, and if their luck holds, also infect the elephant with malaria if possible.

                      The mosquitos sit on the elephants back, out of view, an occasional swat from the elephants tail may take a few of them out, but on the whole they drink their fill.

                      The mosquito waits patiently, ever so patiently, as the elephant sickens... first it becomes anemic, then it gets sicker and sicker. A point comes where if the elephant tried to charge even a single mosquito head on, it would be a costly endeavor for it.

                      ^ This was his story of how they viewed this process.

                      -----------------------------------------------------------------

                      To show you how these guys think and give you a view into their strategic mindset (there was Tajiks, Uzbeks, Pashtuns from Afghanistan and Pakistan, these guys all at the same table)....

                      One of the other people there talked about "the mistake" Pakistan made in aiding the US during the Soviet conflict.

                      I was wondering whether to be insulted or to ask for further information. I did the latter.

                      He said it was nothing personal against Afghans, but that Pakistanis should have allowed Afghanistan to fall to the Russians in totality so as to preserve the bipolar world.

                      What he meant was that the Americans are now at the helm, unopposed, with a general loose federation that actually includes even the new Russia and China in some of its endeavors.

                      In a modified version of the mosquito plan above, this other gentleman said that he felt tossing Afghanistan into the red fire would have been well worth allowing the two empires to continue to weaken and battle eachother permitting the mid east, persia, Pakistan etc to tacitly rise in the background.

                      Further, they viewed it as then, Pakistan would have been able to do what daud was trying to do - milk both empires for loyalty.

                      He basically preferred to do what various Euro nations did when Stalin ate up some of Eastern Europe... not make a fuss.

                      ------------------------------------------------------

                      I don't know Admin, I guess Mostafa is right about doctors being impractical in that I find these sorts of subterfuge plans and cloak and dagger approaches very distasteful and dishonorable.

                      To me, these are people's lives we are talking about... not some commodities that one tosses around randomly.
                      "2 crackheads don't become any better or stronger by sharing the same crack pipe." - Greatest PF quote

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        These are just lies. Don't trust any information from Pakistan in particular and Akhwanis like Barakzai in general.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          [MENTION=1201]Toramana[/MENTION]
                          Singaya? Hope you are doing well.

                          Why is it a lie?
                          Even Adobe Photoshop can't change me.

                          A line[Durrand line] of hatred that raised a wall between the two brothers -Hamid Karzai

                          For generations, the Hindus of India prayed for deliverance from "the venom of the cobra, the teeth of the tiger and the vengeance of the Afghan."


                          The men of Kábul and Khilj also went home; and whenever they were questioned about the Musulmáns of the Kohistán (the mountains), and how matters stood there, they said, "Don't call it Kohistán, but Afghánistán; for there is nothing there but Afgháns and disturbances." Thus it is clear that for this reason the people of the country call their home in their own language Afghánistán, and themselves Afgháns. The people of India call them Patán; but the reason for this is not known. But it occurs to me, that when, under the rule of Muhammadan sovereigns, Musulmáns first came to the city of Patná, and dwelt there, the people of India (for that reason) called them Patáns—but God knows!

                          -Ferishta, 1560–1620

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Toramana View Post
                            These are just lies. Don't trust any information from Pakistan in particular and Akhwanis like Barakzai in general.

                            Nooo lol, but do trust Farhat Taj Andersen. Dont trust Clive Stafford Smith, or other American lawyers with Reprieve who personally knew civilian victims. Only trust people with Red Caps and who are brown but carry the last name Andersen.
                            "2 crackheads don't become any better or stronger by sharing the same crack pipe." - Greatest PF quote

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              It really bugs me when Pakistanis from America start dictating civilian deaths and leaked documents...Barakzai...the media is banned from Waziristan by the Pakistani government and army, why is that?

                              why is it that hakeemullah was killed few metres away from a Pakistani army base?

                              I could go all day long about this, but the only people who oppose drone attacks, are family members or relatives of Talib militants who have been killed, or the wives and children of Uzbeks and other foreign trash who have married into the Wazir blood lines who are well known for selling their daughters for a cheap price, Mahsuds in some way are included in this, but they learn quick from other ****bags who have sold out Waziristan to foreigners.

                              When I see Jihadis like "Dr" Barakzai who could not even face Farhat Taj in a open live debate in Pakistan, but instead run away and hide his face as if he is wearing Purdah lol....Barakzai....Drones kill mostly terrorist ****, not civilians, those innocent Wazirs with their black pargray protesting in Islamabad not long ago, were all related to killed Talib members of Mullah Nazir group.................LOL...EPIC FAIL.


                              also, recently Pak fauge just slaughtered 71 wazirs in Mir Ali, they also not long ago entered the homes of Afridis and slaughtered them too in their sleep....so tell me where was good DURRANI king of Pakhtuns Barakzai...oh yes...he was in American, his real home

                              Comment

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