The next US President?

[ډګروال]

I wanted to know what Pashtuns were thinking so I didn't post. Personally I still think the system of government we have in the USA is still the best one for the USA. As for Afghanistan, I've always felt that before elections the people needed
1. security from organized crime and Taliban reprisal
2. food, clean water, consistent electricity, free health care
3. comprehensive education and pro-Western, moderate-Islam ideological training for all voters especially the cohort coming of age

military government by occupation forces for one generation working thru the willing cooperation of tribal elders and leaders of ethnic groups with a gradual transition to democracy. With the level of chaos in Afghanistan, self-rule will not bring the above 3 conditions quickly enough.

Ok
good for you that its the best system for USA and especially for the peopel in USA.

As for Afghanistan you mentioned a couple of nice things such as electricity ,food,clean water,FREE HEALTHCARE (thumbs up).

than you mentioned comprehensive education? can you explain what that means? What do you mean with pro western? has Afghanistan ever been anti western? or do you ean something else?

what do you mean by moderate Islam? do you mean the Hanafi/about 20% shia madhab that the Afghans adhere to?or something else?

what do you mean with idealogical training? how does that process look like?

BOTTOM LINE

do you want to say that Afghans do/can not have the right to be self goverend/have independence? or in other words, do you want to have a puppet government which puts your interests at the cost of Afghan interest?
btw what if the people refuse your proposal?

as for taliban and criminal elements,i dont believe the civil war scenario ,neither do i think taliban will be DE government. There could be a unity government where all Afghans are represented.

[RevolutionThroughReason]

I find it ironic that Taliban supporters want Muslims elsewhere to vote whiile the Taliban tell Afghans that if they vote they'll be killed.

[khwazun]

..this thread's still going? khushal and dagarwal, since i'm not an intellectual like the two of you i'll rephrase my view in a different way since I was half asleep when I posted and answer your questions. i feel no connection to or reason to vote for any of those american suits. no i'm not a supporter of enforcing the sharia on non-Muslims! i'm sure everyone here knows that besides it being counter-productive and idiotic, this is forbidden in Islam. no i have nothing to do with british and dutch intelligence agency projects like Sharia4Some-European-Nation. not even from that camp, if i followed the manhaj of those idiots i wouldn't put a musical instrument in my avatar. what I meant to convey is this; the two major candidates both seem like American business-as-usual politicians with no great difference in terms of foreign policy. Obama may be more favorable in some aspects but even if I were eligible to vote and i'm not, I could never sleep with myself knowing i voted for some sorry American kafir that is already responsible for upwards of a thousand innocent Pashtuns murdered via drones. every time i heard about new drone strike victims it would torment me knowing i played a role in putting that person in power. here's obama making jokes about predator drones at one of his elite dinners
Obama Jokes About Predator Drones At The 2010 White House Correspondents Association Dinner - YouTube
and this article entitled "Obama victory enfuriates Pakistani drone victims"
http://www.indolink.com/displayArtic...d=110812084657
sure you can vote for the minor parties like libertarians, most of them seem to have policies that aren't very favorable to us though given that we're immigrants and most of them want to seal the borders from what i can understand. on one side i think it would be better if we weren't allowed into places like europe and north america and that's another story but still i'm not voting for somebody that obviously isn't very happy about my presence. and khushal, i was taught the difference between a constitutional republic and pure democracy more than 14 years ago, i just never felt like any of it was applicable enough to me to take permanent note of. I would vote, for instance in Afghan elections definitely. i didn't know however that you could write in literally anybody?! if i'm still around and become eligible to vote in their elections next time, i'll request Ken for president

[randolph85]

ken is a friend to afghanistan, unlike that nasty obama.

[SiiNii]

My opinion is that America is such an enormous country with unlimited resources that if folks don't get along, they can just move out of sight of one another and both parties will be just fine. This isn't an option for most people in other countries, such as Afghanistan, which is why they require more cooperation between citizens.

Apologies for using 'comprehensive' as a buzzword. What I mean to say is that education in the 'ghan must be better than what I experienced growing up in the US. Afghans need to learn many things, and they must be able to apply these things to their daily life. In my high school classes we memorized useless facts about quantum spin (Chemistry), obscure literature (English), and Calculus (unless you went onto STEM major - not including Biology). It would be better for the next generations of Aghans to learn things like how to increase crop yield, prevent disease, reduce infant mortality, understand technical English, calculate ROI and interest rates, etc. History classes to inlcude topics like 'why is America here', 'why should women eventually vote', 'why it is better to forgive and forget injustices committed in the past'.

Pro - Western : what I mean is that they would have to be inculcated in the belief that ISAF presence is 10x better than without.

Moderate Islam : Not destroying historical artifacts. Not killing apostates or adulterers. In general allowing God in the afterlife to judge sinners instead of Vice and Virture ministry squads composed of men.

Ideological training : anti Taliban, anti Al Qaeda. Portrayal of these two as groups as retarding the entry of Afghanis into the modern world. Democracy, universal suffrage, fair trade, meritocracy, and equal rights depicted as the ideal endstate of all human societies. How American and Aghan interests can both be served.

IMO, Afghanistan was not ready for representative democracy. We should have continued working through traditional structures already in place, that is, thru the tribal elders and the jirgas.

Understand that I'm not saying I'm any sort of expert. I spent my time as a Fobbit, who didn't even know that Afghani wasn't an ethnicity prior to my pre-deployment training in early 2011. It's just the opinion of one lowly askar.[/QUOTE]

[SiiNii]

i was taught the difference between a constitutional republic and pure democracy more than 14 years ago

khwazun where did you learn this, surely not in a public school?!

[khwazun]

a german private school/academy primarily for immigrant children

[ډګروال]

My opinion is that America is such an enormous country with unlimited resources that if folks don't get along, they can just move out of sight of one another and both parties will be just fine.

what has that got to do with the discussion?
how is this even an argument?

This isn't an option for most people in other countries, such as Afghanistan, which is why they require more cooperation between citizens.

Afghans have more cooperation among themselves than americans and it is because of the invasion that they have been put against eachother.
for example ethnofascists are put in charge and made head of ceertain ethnic groups while Afghans see them as criminals who cause friction.


Apologies for using 'comprehensive' as a buzzword. What I mean to say is that education in the 'ghan must be better than what I experienced growing up in the US.

you are not being clear here.
what do you mean buzzword and ghan?
are you trying to patronise Afghans and claim that americans are better?


Afghans need to learn many things,

afghans are not babies as you are trying to portray them.

and they must be able to apply these things to their daily life.

Do you want to claim you are better than Afghans and they need to learn from you ,how to live?

In my high school classes we memorized useless facts about quantum spin (Chemistry), obscure literature (English), and Calculus (unless you went onto STEM major - not including Biology).

spare us all the arrogance and sarcasm and get to the point.
do you want to claim that Afghans are against education?

It would be better for the next generations of Aghans to learn things like how to increase crop yield, prevent disease, reduce infant mortality, understand technical English, calculate ROI and interest rates, etc.

But what has that got to do with the occupation and subjucation?
actually by occupation these concerns have grown.
can you also tell us how to get rid of the deplieted uranium rounds you have shot and how we can cure deformed babies and the rise of cancer by this garbage uranium?


History classes to inlcude topics like 'why is America here', 'why should women eventually vote', 'why it is better to forgive and forget injustices committed in the past'.

excuse me?
why america is there isnt important in our over 5000 years of history.
America is just like any other invading empire and their story is also well known in Afghanistan.
women or men voting has nothing to do with occupation of the nation and a military dictatorship you are proposing.
so you want Afghanistan to be an occupied nation ,with no control over their internal and external affairs and have a military regime(like husni mubarak,ben ali and such) and than you talk about VOTING AND DEMOCRACY.


Pro - Western : what I mean is that they would have to be inculcated in the belief that ISAF presence is 10x better than without.

so they have to be slaveminded to be pro west?
Afghans dont want isaf in their country ,no matter how much you try to win hearts and minds.Afghans are a freedom loving people and hard to make them compromise their independence.

Moderate Islam : Not destroying historical artifacts. Not killing apostates or adulterers. In general allowing God in the afterlife to judge sinners instead of Vice and Virture ministry squads composed of men.

this does not answer my question.
i asked which sort of Islam is that? hanafi or something else?
or do you want to make a new version fo Islam for Afghans? do you want sharia for Afghansitan or any muslim country?
Afghans are moderate muslims ,maybe not moderate enough for you or maybe you mean something else. ?

Ideological training : anti Taliban, anti Al Qaeda. Portrayal of these two as groups as retarding the entry of Afghanis into the modern world. Democracy, universal suffrage, fair trade, meritocracy, and equal rights depicted as the ideal endstate of all human societies. How American and Aghan interests can both be served.

taliban are Afghans and karzai calls them his brothers and so do pahtun nationalists.so you are saying that Afghans should be against their own people? al qaeda doesnt exist in Afg neither is it Afghans problem,quit gluing them onto Afghans.
matter of fact they were assembled in peshawer by your goverment.
the rest of the things can be done once the invasion is over, hwo can it be in interest of Afghans that they occupied and subjugated?



IMO, Afghanistan was not ready for representative democracy. We should have continued working through traditional structures already in place, that is, thru the tribal elders and the jirgas.
i dont think you understand the tribal jirga system.
they are against foreign occupation of their country.
if you think that the tribal jirga will eb in your favour than you dont understand it in the first place.

Understand that I'm not saying I'm any sort of expert. I spent my time as a Fobbit, who didn't even know that Afghani wasn't an ethnicity prior to my pre-deployment training in early 2011. It's just the opinion of one lowly askar.

[/QUOTE]
well thats your opinion as a
"lowkey askar" but it has nothing to do with what Afghans want and how they want to be governed.
you still havent answered my questions.

what if Afghans/tribal elders do not agree with you or support you?
do you think Afghans have the right to self determination?



what is the FINAL SOLUTION?

[ډګروال]

let me ask you again another question.

Can you tell me when Afghans have been against america?

[khushal]

..this thread's still going? khushal and dagarwal, since i'm not an intellectual like the two of you i'll rephrase my view in a different way since I was half asleep when I posted and answer your questions. i feel no connection to or reason to vote for any of those american suits. no i'm not a supporter of enforcing the sharia on non-Muslims! i'm sure everyone here knows that besides it being counter-productive and idiotic, this is forbidden in Islam. no i have nothing to do with british and dutch intelligence agency projects like Sharia4Some-European-Nation. not even from that camp, if i followed the manhaj of those idiots i wouldn't put a musical instrument in my avatar. what I meant to convey is this; the two major candidates both seem like American business-as-usual politicians with no great difference in terms of foreign policy. Obama may be more favorable in some aspects but even if I were eligible to vote and i'm not, I could never sleep with myself knowing i voted for some sorry American kafir that is already responsible for upwards of a thousand innocent Pashtuns murdered via drones. every time i heard about new drone strike victims it would torment me knowing i played a role in putting that person in power. here's obama making jokes about predator drones at one of his elite dinners

and this article entitled "Obama victory enfuriates Pakistani drone victims"
http://www.indolink.com/displayArtic...d=110812084657
sure you can vote for the minor parties like libertarians, most of them seem to have policies that aren't very favorable to us though given that we're immigrants and most of them want to seal the borders from what i can understand. on one side i think it would be better if we weren't allowed into places like europe and north america and that's another story but still i'm not voting for somebody that obviously isn't very happy about my presence. and khushal, i was taught the difference between a constitutional republic and pure democracy more than 14 years ago, i just never felt like any of it was applicable enough to me to take permanent note of. I would vote, for instance in Afghan elections definitely. i didn't know however that you could write in literally anybody?! if i'm still around and become eligible to vote in their elections next time, i'll request Ken for president

Good backtracking there Khwazun. Why do you think it is not applicable to you to take note of, I thought you were pashtun. Pashtun tribes traditionally practice direct democracy. Taking note of this would give you a better understanding of how the political instability is occurring in Afghanistan. The current political process has done away with the traditional system and the exclusion of the population in the local and national decision-making process has contributed to the fragility of the political system. Bringing back the traditional arrangement would be fruitful in as traditional decision making would grant legitimacy to policy making and implementation and would alleviate any inherent contradiction that is in place in the current system.
Dont underestimate democracy, pashtuns have been practicing it for thousands of years and have fought many invaders to keep it intact in pashtun society.

[SiiNii]

what has that got to do with the discussion?
how is this even an argument?
Democracy isn't the best solution for other countries. We should encourage it but we shouldn't force it's adoption. I thought it was relevant since the thread is about the election.


Afghans have more cooperation among themselves than americans and it is because of the invasion that they have been put against eachother.
for example ethnofascists are put in charge and made head of ceertain ethnic groups while Afghans see them as criminals who cause friction.
Well I can't debate this since you're the one living in Afghanistan but you can't say that Americans cooperate less since you haven't been to the USA. Please name the ethnofacists, I'd like to research them to understand what you're talking about.

what do you mean buzzword and ghan?
are you trying to patronise Afghans and claim that americans are better?

A buzzword (also fashion word) is a term of art, salesmanship, politics, or technical jargon[1] that is used in the media and wider society outside of its originally narrow technical context, often in an inaccurate manner, or for purposes other than the conveying of information.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buzzword
The 'ghan is just slang for Afghanistan. I didn't Americans are better. My point is that relevant education is far more important for Afghani kids than American kids.

Do you want to claim you are better than Afghans and they need to learn from you ,how to live?
spare us all the arrogance and sarcasm and get to the point.
do you want to claim that Afghans are against education?
NO. I'm talking about education that helps them in a meaningful way. Rebuilding irrigation systems, generator maintenance, installing communications infrastructure, etc.
There is no sarcasm or arrogance intended in my post. I'm criticizing American public education and saying the American model doesn't belong in Afghanistan (or America for that matter). As the primary occupation forces the responsibility for rebuilding falls on us, its our stated mission.

can you also tell us how to get rid of the deplieted uranium rounds you have shot and how we can cure deformed babies and the rise of cancer by this garbage uranium? This is not something I'm aware of if you post the sources then I will read about it.

why america is there isnt important in our over 5000 years of history.
I think the soldiers down at the checkpoint, or the provincial agricultural teams are more important to current inhabitants.

Afghanistan to be an occupied nation ,with no control over their internal and external affairs and have a military regime(like husni mubarak,ben ali and such) and than you talk about VOTING AND DEMOCRACY.
Democracy happened so we have to work within this system. Going to another system is not an option at this point.

so they have to be slaveminded to be pro west? Afghans dont want isaf in their country ,no matter how much you try to win hearts and minds.Afghans are a freedom loving people and hard to make them compromise their independence.
Pro-ISAF. Pro reconstruction. Anti - Taliban. I don't think Afghans universally share your sentiments, not the ones I met.

Afghans are moderate muslims ,maybe not moderate enough for you or maybe you mean something else. ?
The attacks on girl's schools would have to stop, for one thing.

what if Afghans/tribal elders do not agree with you or support you?
do you think Afghans have the right to self determination?
All countries have this right. Americans should rebuild this country since we invaded it, but we won't do it if our enemies, the Taliban will return to power.

taliban are Afghans and karzai calls them his brothers
Can you post a link to the Pashto language version of this speech?

[SiiNii]

Can you tell me when Afghans have been against america?

Our fight is against the Taliban and their allies, not Afghans.

[khushal]

Our fight is against the Taliban and their allies, not Afghans.

the taliban have done nothing to america or americans. The war is against AQ and they were/are in pakistan and saudi arabia not afghanistan. The CIA admits that there are none or at most an insignificant number of AQ elements in afghanistan and at one time the US was an ally of AQ. what happened to the alliance and why did the US bring AQ into Afghanistan in the first place.