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Council of Europe Unanimously Supports Right To Wear Burqa

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  • #16
    Here is a relevant news tor_Khan might not like to read.

    "Disturbance in Helsinki highlights tensions between Somali fundamentalists and Kurdish Liberal Muslims

    YLE.fi, Helsinki

    Representatives of two immigrant minorities believed to have been involved in Sunday’s group fight at Linnanmäki have sharply condemned the melee. The incident has highlighted tensions that sometimes emerge between Somalis and Kurds in Finland. Some Somalis have taken issue with the dress and habits of Kurds, who are often fairly relaxed in their interpretation of Islam.

    Dozens of young people with immigrant backgrounds took part in Sunday’s melee – mainly Somalis and Kurds. Kurds have said that there have been tensions between the groups before, because some of the Somalis, many of whom are devout Muslims, have been known to chide Kurds for their more worldly dress and behaviour.

    A woman, interviewed by the late-edition newspaper Ilta-Sanomat, said that one of Sunday’s fights started with an argument over the use of head scarves. According to the 25-year-old woman, the Somalis denounced Kurdish women for not wearing scarves.

    Kurds interviewed by YLE were not surprised to hear about tensions with the Somalis. They say that some Somalis have previously taken issue with the habits of secularised Muslims. One Kurdish woman spoke of an incident in which a Somali took issue with listening to music at a Finnish language course.

    “When I was on a Finnish language course, we had the same problem. One Somali prevented us from listening to music, saying that it is banned under Islamic law.” The woman did not want her name mentioned, because she did not want to hurt the feelings of her Somali colleagues.

    Friendship Society Condemns Violence



    Sabah Abbas Ali, Chairman of the Finnish-Kurdish Friendship Society

    Sabah Abbas Ali, the chair of the Finnish-Kurdish Friendship Society, says that there have been similar cases before.

    “Unfortunately, this is not unique. What happened at Linnanmäki has happened before.”
    Ali mentions a case at a public swimming pool in Vuosaari, where a bikini worn by a Kurdish woman sparked a conflict. Ali is occasionally told of cases in which a devout Muslim will take issue with the dress or activities of a worldlier Kurd.

    “Both sides have behaved badly,” Ali said, commenting on Sunday’s news. Ali is quick to add that not all Somalis in Finland take issue with the religious habits of other Muslims, adding that he has close Somali friends himself.

    "More about Self-Esteem than Scarves"

    Youth worker Mohamed Xadar Mukhtar Abdi, himself of a Somali background, is surprised at the experiences reported by Kurds.

    “Muslim girls have been friends with each other even though some wear scarves and others do not. I think that they have gotten along quite well in spite of this.”

    Abdi believes that Sunday’s events were more about self-esteem and adherence to a group than about head scarves. He noted that stupid ideas tend to prevail in large groups. “If two people do not understand each other, then naturally, friends and groups of friends will come to the aid of their own.”
    YLE"

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    • #17
      Kurds are like most of the nasty secularists here. Extremely nationalist and racist.

      Kurds suffer from same disease educated pashtuns suffer from. Arrogance, Pride, Fascism and ignorance.
      [SIZE="4"][B][CENTER][URL="www.quranawsunnat.com"]www.quranawsunnat.com
      [/URL]
      [URL="www.youtube.com/Sangartube"]www.youtube.com/Sangartube
      [/URL][/SIZE]
      Mullah 4 Life! [/CENTER][/B]

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      • #18
        Originally posted by Toramana View Post
        Here is a relevant news tor_Khan might not like to read.
        I must have offended you in some past life, because you want to make a field day out of this.

        I'm not a great fan of long postings, though I sometimes fall into the trap of writing them myself.

        I've worked with Somalis and Kurds. I'm mostly indifferent about people's personal decisions to wear a headscarf.

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        • #19
          Originally posted by Toramana View Post
          Why are Muslims specifically forced into ghetoes? Why isn't any other community e.g., Hindus, Sikhs, etc. making hue and cry about this? Isn't it a fact that Muslims have a very poor track record of integration into host societies or showing some respect for values of the societies where they live?
          To begin to understand this fully, why specifically, is this truer of European Muslims and not American Muslims?

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          • #20
            There has been alot of Issues in the UK about Kurds chasing girls and other peoples women.

            Kind Regards

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            • #21
              Originally posted by tor_khan View Post
              To begin to understand this fully, why specifically, is this truer of European Muslims and not American Muslims?
              A more relevant question would be, why is it truer of European Muslims but not non-Muslim European immigrant communities?

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              • #22
                ^Not always true.

                Eastern European Romanies live on the fringes, same would be true of Albanians in Italy etc. where to all intents, they should blend in.

                But back to the question I posed, why is this a particular phenomena in Europe? Because, it is - European Muslim migrants and their children are poorer and less integrated than their co-migrants who chose North America, Australia etc.

                It's a question that is worth a detailed study.

                We cannot exactly seperate how Europeans have historically treated minorities from this.

                Comment


                • #23
                  Originally posted by tor_khan View Post
                  ^Not always true.

                  Eastern European Romanies live on the fringes, same would be true of Albanians in Italy etc. where to all intents, they should blend in.

                  But back to the question I posed, why is this a particular phenomena in Europe? Because, it is - European Muslim migrants and their children are poorer and less integrated than their co-migrants who chose North America, Australia etc.

                  It's a question that is worth a detailed study.

                  We cannot exactly seperate how Europeans have historically treated minorities from this.
                  Malgariya, I think the problem is that many Moslems harbour these unrealistic and arrogant thoughts and perceptions that Islam can be of more value to society than the secular and democratic system of Europe. While these Moslems, while enjoying all the privileges of the European society, seek to override the distinctly tolerant and secular culture of Europe and propagate an over-throw of the ethos of the modern European state, the European society is threatened and this directly results in such antagonistic discourses.

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                  • #24
                    Originally posted by Nadir Shah View Post
                    Malgariya, I think the problem is that many Moslems harbour these unrealistic and arrogant thoughts and perceptions that Islam can be of more value to society than the secular and democratic system of Europe. While these Moslems, while enjoying all the privileges of the European society, seek to override the distinctly tolerant and secular culture of Europe and propagate an over-throw of the ethos of the modern European state, the European society is threatened and this directly results in such antagonistic discourses.
                    It's not as simple as blaming Muslims, most of whom don't see Islam as a poltical tool, but just want to be able to live and work in peace.

                    There are a good number of Muslims who are either low-key or non-obvious in their faith, some even quite secular, but still they are confined to the worst housing and lower opportunities that forces them back into European ghettos - it's something that occurs throughout Europe in particular, and I honestly think that whilst Muslims absolutely need to self-reflect, there are deeper reasons for this kind of social setup, part of which speaks volumes about European tolerance.
                    Last edited by tor_khan; 07-01-2010, 12:07 PM.

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Originally posted by tor_khan View Post
                      It's not as simple as blaming Muslims, most of whom don't see Islam as a poltical tool, but just want to be able to live and work in peace.

                      There are a good number of Muslims who are either low-key or non-obvious in their faith, some even quite secular, but still they are confined to the worst housing and lower opportunities that forces them back into European ghettos - it's something that occurs throughout Europe in particular, and I honestly think that whilst Muslims need to absolutely need to self-reflect, there are deeper reasons for this kind of social setup, part of which speaks volumes about European tolerance.
                      The people who believe in tolerance and value human life above all religious and sectarian influences should have nothing to worry about. Anyone, though, who threatens the society with a voilent change, other than a Socialist Revolution, should be held as an outcast and a pariah. One cannot hind behind the curtain of Islamophobia and anti-Imperialist rhetoric and overlook the inherent voilent tendencies in Moslem societies.

                      Religion aside, I think the whole thing can be reduced to a classical Marxist class antagonisms. A worker or a labourer is a resource in the eyes of the capitalist. It does not matter to him which faith he follows as long as he is able to perform wage slavery for the capitalists. The classes, haves and have-nots, are not built along religious lines. They reflect the control of the productive forces and resources of the classes. An example would be the Christian Blacks of the US. They are economically subdued even though they are Christians.

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                      • #26
                        tor_khan, this is not convincing ...why would they target a specific religious community? Give some cogent reasons, please. Isn't it that religion togethor with social backgrounds of the Muslim immigrants is the main cause? But you cannot sidestep the question, why only Muslims have such kind of feelings or have been forced into ghetoes.

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                        • #27
                          Being forced into ghetoes is a consequence and not the cause as Nadir Shah have rightly argued. The cause should be sought in the ideology, which inculcates segregationist attitude.

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                          • #28
                            Originally posted by Toramana View Post
                            tor_khan, this is not convincing ...why would they target a specific religious community? Give some cogent reasons, please. Isn't it that religion togethor with social backgrounds of the Muslim immigrants is the main cause? But you cannot sidestep the question, why only Muslims have such kind of feelings or have been forced into ghetoes.
                            I'm not sidestepping the "question" - read back over the last couple of postings. I agree, in fact, I probably began by saying that Muslims in Europe are ghettoised.

                            I contrasted this with North American and tried to explore why this might be the case.

                            You're upset at something that I may have inadvertantly said, because I get the feeling that you want to pin something onto me.

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                            • #29
                              Originally posted by Toramana View Post
                              Being forced into ghetoes is a consequence and not the cause as Nadir Shah have rightly argued. The cause should be sought in the ideology, which inculcates segregationist attitude.
                              How very truthfully and nicely said. The 'I am a Moslem, I am better than you.', 'You are a Jew/Christian, You are morally corrupt', 'You are an infidel, I cannot be friends with you.', 'The US and Israel are evil because they kill but the Taliban are good because they serve Islam, and 'You are always hatching conspiracies against us Moslems' attitude is not the harbinger of an inclusive and integrated mindset.

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                ^French North African Muslims and British Panjabee and Bengalee Muslims really believe that the Taliban are their saviours?

                                Deeply misguided if true. Oh well ...

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