Pakistan-born parents guilty of murdering ‘westernised’ British daughter

[Toramana]

This is what happens at the end when children get westernized. This is a really tough situation for those who have some honor (ghairat) in their hearts, others don't care.

Refuge in a bogus self-delusional sentiment is called rascalism. If one has so much ghairath (honour), one should stay back home and stay contented with what one has instead of immigrating and a eating like a dog at the hand of those whose values one loathes.

[Friend]

Honour does not depend on what others think about You, honour relates you to yourself, for not being ashamed yourself if you look in the mirror!
Society, excuse me if I say it rude, is like prostitute and what today they respected tomorrow they hate and so on. Honour cannot rely on the oppinion on other, that is not honour but being coward to face these others. I am not talking like that, I take it out of experience even from my own and my wifes family, where the people are not so far in their way of thinking like those described here, and i had very hot discussions with such people.
It is their child, if something gets wrong, it is even if not singularly even their fault.
How can a person kill his child out of cowardice from others opinion and out of his own erors in educating the child? Where is honour there, honour means being strong even in the worst situation not to loose controll over your mind and stay a man and a human.

In such open societies where men and women intermingle and can do everything whatever they want, then expecting something good from their children is total stupidity. I think its not the fault of the children, but fault of the parents who chose to live in such societies where you have no control over your children and the laws totally goes against your thinking and values.
My advice to all such parents would be to please think 100 times before deciding to live in such free societies. otherwise don't blame your children for whatever they do.

[Friend]

Refuge in a bogus self-delusional sentiment is called rascalism. If one has so much ghairath (honour), one should stay back home and stay contented with what one has instead of immigrating and a eating like a dog at the hand of those whose values one loathes.

That is what I am saying. When someone decides to reside in such free societies they should then live with full free mind, free thinking. But at the other hand, these western govts and NGOs should not tell us about honor killings and all that in our own countries. If such free thinking is their way of life then let us also live our way of life.

[Badlun]

Its not honor its dishonor. In the west its not that common as it is in the so called eastern and especially Pashtun society. And the honor is only attached to the women. If a man does the same thing its never a matter of honor or dishonor of the society. The whole concpet of honor of Pashtuns is attached to women. They keep their women as prisoners and once they commit a little crime of liberty they are brutally killed.

Pashtuns or Muslims are not ashamed and dishonored by their ignorance, corruption, terrorism, smuggling, backwardness and poverty but are immediately ashamed of any free movement of a woman or expression of a desire of a woman like the one in the subject case. Please give equal status to women. they are the same human beings as men. they have the right to whatever men have right. Free movement, free choice of life partner and free choice of profession.

The western media project such cases because its an anomaly for them. In the western media news starts with the death of a dog not what the president did or a minister said. It is a matter of honor in the west to defend such innocent cases as that of the murdered girl in England. Human rights is honor not violating it.

[Toramana]

how does murdering ones child/sister in any way relate to 'honour'?
it's a shame they don't have 'love' in their hearts, because if they did, they would never be able to harm their child/sister.

The simple thing is, no one has the right over one's children once they attain adult-hood. Children are not property or ownership; they are a responsibility and an obligation and a legacy. One should care and have love for one's kids and their wishes and stand by them as long such wishes don't impinge on the right and comforts of others.

[Friend]

The simple thing is, no one has the right over one's children once they attain adult-hood. Children are not property or ownership; they are a responsibility and an obligation. One should care and have love for one's kids and their wishes and stand by them as long such wishes don't impinge on the right and comforts of others.

No dear, you are wrong. Respect for elders, listening to elders and respecting their decisions are the beautiful values of the Pashtun society. Why do you want to ruin our society by westernizing them by bring the so called freedom of speech and wish.
The west has ruined its family system and its society by giving a free hand to their children and at the end they regret when they are sent to old homes.
Dear there is a difference between us and these westerners. Why do you want to eliminate this difference ? Why do you want to take us to the same level ?
We being Pashtuns should be proud on our values and traditions.
Thank you

[Toramana]

Its not honor its dishonor. In the west its not that common as it is in the so called eastern and especially Pashtun society. And the honor is only attached to the women. If a man does the same thing its never a matter of honor or dishonor of the society. The whole concpet of honor of Pashtuns is attached to women. They keep their women as prisoners and once they commit a little crime of liberty they are brutally killed.

Pashtuns or Muslims are not ashamed and dishonored by their ignorance, corruption, terrorism, smuggling, backwardness and poverty but are immediately ashamed of any free movement of a woman or expression of a desire of a woman like the one in the subject case. Please give equal status to women. they are the same human beings as men. they have the right to whatever men have right. Free movement, free choice of life partner and free choice of profession.

The western media project such cases because its an anomaly for them. In the western media news starts with the death of a dog not what the president did or a minister said. It is a matter of honor in the west to defend such innocent cases as that of the murdered girl in England. Human rights is honor not violating it.

I absolutely agree with you for the rest of your post except the last paragraph where I would partially agree and partially dis-agree. There are also political motives behind blowing such news out of proportion---a deliberate targeted propaganda to legitimize the particular kind of geopolitics. If not, why demonize Syria but sustain the regime in Saudi Arabia?

I think our liberal secularist should be a bit skeptical as well and should not give a 100% clean **** to the West in all matters.

[Tjanaparh]

In such open societies where men and women intermingle and can do everything whatever they want, then expecting something good from their children is total stupidity. I think its not the fault of the children, but fault of the parents who chose to live in such societies where you have no control over your children and the laws totally goes against your thinking and values.
My advice to all such parents would be to please think 100 times before deciding to live in such free societies. otherwise don't blame your children for whatever they do.

Will, that is a difficult theme, thank You for Your posting really!

I think it is not only fault of the parents, nor only of the society people live in, all three factors are important. But the parents I would say are the most important factor of the three, however even in such societies parents if really strong people educate their children in a rightfull way, while others miss that even in societies where genders are separeted.
Important is if the boys/girls behaviour corresponds realy to the thoughts he/she has. Because if not it is a kind of hypocrisy. I have some relatives, who hate russian girls because many of them live quiet a "free" lifestyle.
These girls talk about that so much, it bothes them so much in every details, that it got a kind of pathologig jealosy, because their parents never aimed that these girls undersand why to prefer one way on the other. This makes that they educate hypocrites, and that is a big problem in many societies.

However surely many things are quiet difficult to manage specially when kids grow up, that is why I opened the school theme, I see there a key point.
I see no problem that girls and boys talk, but it does deped on the way it is done. If girls and boys won't completely interact, they may take very immature decisions regarding marriage, and this brings a lot of problems for the future.

[Tjanaparh]

No dear, you are wrong. Respect for elders, listening to elders and respecting their decisions are the beautiful values of the Pashtun society. Why do you want to ruin our society by westernizing them by bring the so called freedom of speech and wish.
The west has ruined its family system and its society by giving a free hand to their children and at the end they regret when they are sent to old homes.
Dear there is a difference between us and these westerners. Why do you want to eliminate this difference ? Why do you want to take us to the same level ?
We being Pashtuns should be proud on our values and traditions.
Thank you

You should not "westernize" the society, infact to repeat ones mistakes is 100x more stupid than the one ho did it.
But You shouldn't see even only West and East! Try focus only on your culture and if there are problems they can be changed from inner way in accordance to ones society, there is no need to look arround and take the west as example. From your description Pashtun society has much in common with my, specialy my wifes family from a rural place has exactly the same way of life(the capital of armenia on the other hand is weternized completely). Me personally I do not prefer none of both, our root system(ancient) was built on quiet more sense and understanding than the false liberty of the west and the false honour of our christians.

[Friend]

Will, that is a difficult theme, thank You for Your posting really!

I think it is not only fault of the parents, nor only of the society people live in, all three factors are important. But the parents I would say are the most important factor of the three, however even in such societies parents if really strong people educate their children in a rightfull way, while others miss that even in societies where genders are separeted.
Important is if the boys/girls behaviour corresponds realy to the thoughts he/she has. Because if not it is a kind of hypocrisy. I have some relatives, who hate russian girls because many of them live quiet a "free" lifestyle.
These girls talk about that so much, it bothes them so much in every details, that it got a kind of pathologig jealosy, because their parents never aimed that these girls undersand why to prefer one way on the other. This makes that they educate hypocrites, and that is a big problem in many societies.

However surely many things are quiet difficult to manage specially when kids grow up, that is why I opened the school theme, I see there a key point.
I see no problem that girls and boys talk, but it does deped on the way it is done. If girls and boys won't completely interact, they may take very immature decisions regarding marriage, and this brings a lot of problems for the future.

Well, if you see intermingling of boys and girls as an important factor for their bright future and so that they could make mature decisions regarding their marital life, I think this is not true as we have seen the ratio of divorce in the western societies is so high though intermingling of girls and boys is a normal thing and after they get to know much about each other, then there should be no question of divorce.
Marital life totally depends on compromise, love, trust and patience.
marriage based on wishes never succeeds.

[Tjanaparh]

The western media project such cases because its an anomaly for them. In the western media news starts with the death of a dog not what the president did or a minister said. It is a matter of honor in the west to defend such innocent cases as that of the murdered girl in England. Human rights is honor not violating it.

Dear Osho, but Toramana is right, mostly the only thing the western media show on Afghanstan or Iran is violence, they never show something about the clture of Afghanistan, they neglect completely these themes, theyy are like more happy to have such situations for their political agenda.
When I was in school in Europe, the pupils gave me "Taliban" as nickname, only because in the Politics lesson after the 11.9.2001 and several times before I interrupted my teacher because he was giving a quiet oneside lesson on history, pupils who have no informations could only believe in all what he said. And in their eyes in Afghanistan there is nothing else than hatefull people , and Iran for them is a shame point on earth...

In their eyes

[Tjanaparh]

Well, if you see intermingling of boys and girls as an important factor for their bright future and so that they could make mature decisions regarding their marital life, I think this is not true as we have seen the ratio of divorce in the western societies is so high though intermingling of girls and boys is a normal thing and after they get to know much about each other, then there should be no question of divorce.
Marital life totally depends on compromise, love, trust and patience.
marriage based on wishes never succeeds.

I think You did not understand what I mean, to marry You should at least know the thought of your future wife/husband, that is a serious decision, because if she/he isn'T a trouthfull person big problems can happen, now it depends on society. In our villages for example when the family doesn't go well they never divorce(and mostly they never talked before marriage), but the men there live the most amoral hypocrite way of life, talking much about honour and shoulting and beating their wifes. That is neither a harmonical family, I do not prefer neither divorce neither such a way of living.
you should know the family a person you marry and the priciples of the person him/herself.

[Khostai]

That is what I am saying. When someone decides to reside in such free societies they should then live with full free mind, free thinking. But at the other hand, these western govts and NGOs should not tell us about honor killings and all that in our own countries. If such free thinking is their way of life then let us also live our way of life.

And since is when is our way of live is killing teenagers who don't listen to there parents?

[RevolutionThroughReason]

The solution is that Pashtuns or Muslims may not immigrate to these so called Kafir lands or if they immigrate then they have to adopt the culture and society where they live. No other option is there. Yes they can maintain their religion in their private lives but they cant create a Pakistan or Afghanistan in Europe or America.

That's exactly what this family was trying to do according to this news report,

I don't agree with your narrative, it sounds biased.

[RevolutionThroughReason]

And since is when is our way of live is killing teenagers who don't listen to there parents?

I think the killing teenagers is a response to losing their way of life