Bride Kidnapping in Kyrgyzstan

[khushal]

That's only if the kidnapper is less powerful; Kuchi clans are often more powerful than Keliwals because they're more mobile.

war and fights over women is very common in Pashtunwali; It brought "izzah" to the clans who could do this because it means the tribe of the other males was weaker. In fact that's why Pashtunwali has this law of avenging, to redeem the humiliation done to the men of those clans.

Avenging exists as an enforcer of law since there is no authority in place.

@DZJ,
you were saying as if this exists as a custom like in the video of these Kyrgyz. The Kyrgyz dont avenge the kidnapping therefore they accept it as tradition. Pashtuns abhor this practice that is why they will get violent and kill over it.

@ Barackzai, walakum salam
A similar thing happened in my village where the girl and boy planned to run away. In that incident three people were killed including the boy that ran away with the girl. My point is that pashtuns will kill so therefore they abhor it. Pashtuns consider this a crime. The video portrays these Kyrgyz people as if it is their right to kidnap brides and no one actually does anything about it including the kidnapped girls family.

[BarakzaiAbdali]

Avenging exists as an enforcer of law since there is no authority in place.

@DZJ,
you were saying as if this exists as a custom like in the video of these Kyrgyz. The Kyrgyz dont avenge the kidnapping therefore they accept it as tradition. Pashtuns abhor this practice that is why they will get violent and kill over it.

@ Barackzai, walakum salam
A similar thing happened in my village where the girl and boy planned to run away. In that incident three people were killed including the boy that ran away with the girl. My point is that pashtuns will kill so therefore they abhor it. Pashtuns consider this a crime. The video portrays these Kyrgyz people as if it is their right to kidnap brides and no one actually does anything about it including the kidnapped girls family.

Yeah I agree;the responses are often brutal unless one side is dramatically more powerful and the other family knows it cannot win to begin with.

[IamDZJ]

the first sentence was for skimface's kamsai which is the way women do their hair comment.

[afghan]

this custom is very popular in caucus region among muslims and non muslims. the girl reaching puberty is always acomponied by a male relative in fair that she might be kidnapped. sexual acts are not practiced before the marriage by her kidnaper. in some cases its the matter of honour for the girl that the kidnapper risked his life for her and made her his wife. No enmity remains on either side.

[pashtun_rise]

Pashtuns kidnap girls only in cases of "AVAZ" where a cousin claims for the girl...or in disputes,revenge,or in obsession...but not as a custom.Pashtun male accompany a girl for safety not for kidnapping.Since...pashtuns have been in intertribal wars long ago.They fear for the honour not for kidnapping.The kidnapping incidents did happen but they always had reasons.Not as a custom.

Infact...i ve seen pashtuns to be the one who ask for girl's proposal with such politeness and passion that i ve never seen in any other society.Infact its only in pashtuns where jahaiz (dowry) is not taken from girl's side but provided from men's side.Men's side is told to wait for a response from girl's side.Kidnapping is only seen in few cases...its not general.Kidnapping can also be seen in other ethnicity like punjabis,balochs,western wolrd etc etc.

[RevolutionThroughReason]

Avenging exists as an enforcer of law since there is no authority in place.

.

But it's not a law since weaker Pashtun tribes cannot enforce something on another clan since they have no authority; it is merely a battle of whoever has the power to do it will.


In fact when you examine the whole landscape of Pashtunwali, badal, nanawatai; all of it indicates that the practice of such things is not only sanctioned but encouraged, for a kidnapper can have nanawatai and the offended tribe cannot have any recourse.

[pashtun_rise]

But it's not a law since weaker Pashtun tribes cannot enforce something on another clan since they have no authority; it is merely a battle of whoever has the power to do it will.


In fact when you examine the whole landscape of Pashtunwali, badal, nanawatai; all of it indicates that the practice of such things is not only sanctioned but encouraged, for a kidnapper can have nanawatai and the offended tribe cannot have any recourse.

True..but i ve seen cases of nanawatai mostly the ones...who are killers or had some land disputes.Not kidnapping cases.May be 1 or 2 cases...and even if it happens...clans are very clever...they go directly for jirga system...

[khushal]

But it's not a law since weaker Pashtun tribes cannot enforce something on another clan since they have no authority; it is merely a battle of whoever has the power to do it will.

In fact when you examine the whole landscape of Pashtunwali, badal, nanawatai; all of it indicates that the practice of such things is not only sanctioned but encouraged, for a kidnapper can have nanawatai and the offended tribe cannot have any recourse.

There is no such thing as a weaker pashtun tribe, most consist of hundreds of thousands of memebers. you maybe referring to clans. Clans can be weaker than a neighboring clan. But when a war is on the horizon, usually the whole tribe intervenes and stops it from escalating. Most wars between clans happen because they dont want to look weak or passive against their rival no matter if they are weak or not.

The seond paragraph is completely wrong. Who told you the offended tribe can not have any recourse. nanawatai is used to guarantee that the weaker party of the dispute is heard, it ensures a fair trial. For example, If two families are in a dispute and the shooting starts, usually the stronger of the two families would run over the weaker one. The weaker one have an option of asking nanawatai of neighbors or anyone they want. This sanction does not mean they are off the hook, it just means that they will have a sit down and talk and come to some kind of resolution to the dispute, during the negotiations of the dispute, they are safe from the stronger party of the dispute.
This is what happened during the Osama bin laden fiasco. Basically Osama asked for nanawatai from the taliban against a much stronger rival, the US. The taliban gave it to thim and was asking the US for evidence and a fair trial. The US instead of going through that process, just eliminated the host. This happens in pashtun society as well where if the family that can eliminate the host, they will, that is why it is important that you ask for nanawatai from someone that can actaully protect you, someone that is strong and respected.

[khushal]

True..but i ve seen cases of nanawatai mostly the ones...who are killers or had some land disputes.Not kidnapping cases.May be 1 or 2 cases...and even if it happens...clans are very clever...they go directly for jirga system...

REvolution knows nothing about afghan society. There is nothing true about his statement. your wrong as well. people can ask for nanawatai for kidnapping cases as well as murder or anything else. Most cases goto the kirga sysytem wheater it is nanawatai is aksed for or not.

It works like witness protection here in the US. Your protected so your testomony can be heard.

[RevolutionThroughReason]

True..but i ve seen cases of nanawatai mostly the ones...who are killers or had some land disputes.Not kidnapping cases.May be 1 or 2 cases...and even if it happens...clans are very clever...they go directly for jirga system...

You haven't seen it; but others have .....other Pashtuns here all confirm the existence of Kidnappings.


And jirga doesn't work if the clans are not apart of the same loy khel.

[RevolutionThroughReason]

There is no such thing as a weaker pashtun tribe, most consist of hundreds of thousands of memebers. you maybe referring to clans. Clans can be weaker than a neighboring clan. But when a war is on the horizon, usually the whole tribe intervenes and stops it from escalating. Most wars between clans happen because they dont want to look weak or passive against their rival no matter if they are weak or not.

The seond paragraph is completely wrong. Who told you the offended tribe can not have any recourse. nanawatai is used to guarantee that the weaker party of the dispute is heard, it ensures a fair trial. For example, If two families are in a dispute and the shooting starts, usually the stronger of the two families would run over the weaker one. The weaker one have an option of asking nanawatai of neighbors or anyone they want. This sanction does not mean they are off the hook, it just means that they will have a sit down and talk and come to some kind of resolution to the dispute, during the negotiations of the dispute, they are safe from the stronger party of the dispute.
This is what happened during the Osama bin laden fiasco. Basically Osama asked for nanawatai from the taliban against a much stronger rival, the US. The taliban gave it to thim and was asking the US for evidence and a fair trial. The US instead of going through that process, just eliminated the host. This happens in pashtun society as well where if the family that can eliminate the host, they will, that is why it is important that you ask for nanawatai from someone that can actaully protect you, someone that is strong and respected.

Oh yes there is ...for example in Ghazni you'd get squished like a bug even if I stole every woman in your family. Because I'm a Hotak, we're such a huge and respected tribe, that In theory I could get away with murder and you couldn't do a damn thing.


Now don't get me wrong I don't approve of that, in fact I find that disgusting. But Tribal reputation allows you to get away with a lot It doesn't make them "off the hook" with the lesser tribe. It means , there is no law or recourse; You can try to use Jirga sure, but if the tribe is powerful. There is no way to enforce it.


more about what is flawed about Pashtunwali.

[RevolutionThroughReason]

REvolution knows nothing about afghan society. d.

coming from a guy raised in Pakistani controlled, Pakistanified, detribalized Peshawar means very little.

[Admin Khan]

Oh yes there is ...for example in Ghazni you'd get squished like a bug even if I stole every woman in your family. Because I'm a Hotak, we're such a huge and respected tribe, that In theory I could get away with murder and you couldn't do a damn thing.


Now don't get me wrong I don't approve of that, in fact I find that disgusting. But Tribal reputation allows you to get away with a lot It doesn't make them "off the hook" with the lesser tribe. It means , there is no law or recourse; You can try to use Jirga sure, but if the tribe is powerful. There is no way to enforce it.


more about what is flawed about Pashtunwali.

Sad but true. Tribal backings at times is like a gang backing you.

[haviZsultan]

Wow interesting custom... thanks for enhancing my knowledge Randolph. Very interesting.

[Shah-i-Kot]

coming from a guy raised in Pakistani controlled, Pakistanified, detribalized Peshawar means very little.

"Pakistanified" "Detribalized" "Pakistani controlled"

Have you ever been to Peshawar? Have you been to Afghanistan? Yes or no would be enough.

Either way as I recall, Khushal is a Zazai from Paktia I think, not that that matters.

Dont you believe that Mullah Omar does not exist? Have you considered giving this discovered information to CNN? Im sure they would appreciate this discovery of yours and then realize that journalists such as Rahimullah Yousafzai lied about interviewing him...


NOT