Old and new mingle in Afghan Jirga

[Afghan_Soldier]

Can you post it here plz.

[شمله ور خراساني]

Can you post it here plz.

I need to find it. It was sent to me via facebook by Hizb Islami's official media wing who are very active on facebook.

[شمله ور خراساني]

Sangar, do you think this Jirga will be beneficial?

If a Jirga is held where Taliban, Hizb Islami, the current government and representatives of general public participate without foreing mingiling and American and Pakistan and Irans hidden hands, we might be able to broker a deal to bring peace.

But as long as America decides everything for us, there will be no peace.

[Afghan_Soldier]

I doubt any one would be able to tell a head of time. We shall find out when the govt kick starts and proceeds with its plan. I hope this is a serious effort and not some next political spin by Karzai or Americans. Some complain that Taliban and Hekmatyar are not invited. Oh well, there are ample of reasons wy they weren't. It is not hard to guess, that they would have refused to come any way. On the other hand this is all politics as well. And each side would be bargaining. ON the other hand this has to be procecuted with much prudence and patience, on the part of the govt and its backers.

From what it seem overtly outlined doesn't see to be a comprehensive plan either. The reasons for insurgency and grievance of certain groups I doubt are economic as Karzai's plan intitiate jobs and training etc. It is political and in some extend idealogical. Eventually every side has to be accomodated for a lasting peace. That doesn't mean those who would still maintain links with foreign agencies or Al-Qaida. I doubt Mullah Omar or Haqani would be part of any negotiations.



Afghanistan's fluffy peace jirga

By Caroline Wadhams, June 4, 2010 Friday, June 4, 2010 - 4:53 PM

On Friday, Afghan President Hamid Karzai's peace jirga came to a close after three days of discussions to secure domestic and international support for his government's efforts to reach out to Afghan insurgents. Following an inauspicious beginning, in which insurgents tried (and failed) to disrupt proceedings with rockets and suicide bombers, the jirga endorsed Karzai's proposals to negotiate with insurgents, despite the fact that the plan the president presented to international donors during his most recent visit to Washington was not discussed in detail in the jirga sessions.
After all of the speeches, tweeting, and media coverage of the jirga, it is difficult to believe that Afghanistan is any closer to peace. The jirga itself was not a genuine attempt to engage Afghanistan's stakeholders or to create a concrete peace plan. While reports indicate that the discussions were lively and unrestricted within the breakout sessions, the jirga was not sufficiently inclusive, thereby failing to create true national consensus or provide legitimacy to a peace plan. While the 1,600 delegates came from all over Afghanistan, the majority were reportedly handpicked by Karzai and his allies, with political rivals and civil society activists largely excluded from the process. Moreover, representatives of the main insurgent factions (Afghan Taliban, the Haqqani network and Gulbuddin Hekmatyar's Hezb-i-Islami) were left out.
The jirga was instead primarily dominated by presidential appointees, former warlords and veterans of the anti-Soviet jihad period, many of whom are widely criticized for their abuses and corruption and whose actual value as representatives of their communities is questionable. The jirga's chairman, Ustad Burhanuddin Rabbani, was president of Afghanistan in the 1990s when warlords were battling the Taliban for control of the country; he is not perceived as a uniter or a trustworthy figure to reach out to the insurgency. The Taliban, towards whom the peace plan is supposed to be directed, dismissed the jirga as a "propaganda stunt" and a process to pander to foreign forces. They have instead demanded the removal of foreign forces as a precondition before any discussions can occur.

During the three days of the jirga, the delegates broke out into 28 committees to discuss peace with the insurgency, all of which fed into recommendations. According to the Afghanistan Analysts Network, the delegates were asked to look at three topics: 1) whether Afghanistan should negotiate with the Taliban; 2) the framework and mechanisms for negotiation with the opposition should be, and 3) how national unity can be strengthened. These committee recommendations were consolidated by the jirga's organizers into a series of declarations, which have yet to be released in full. Beyond endorsing Karzai's leadership on the issue, the delegates' recommendations (gathered from tweets and other media reports) are the following:

• Insurgents who join the peace process should be removed from the U.N. blacklist which imposes travel and financial restrictions on people associated with the Taliban.
• Insurgents "who want to take part must cut their ties with foreign terrorist groups."
• A high commission should be established to pursue peace efforts with the Taliban
• Progress made in "areas of democracy and women's rights should not be sacrificed" in negotiations with insurgent groups.
• NATO troops "must continue to support Afghan army and ensure that Afghanistan does not become a battleground for regional players."
• There should be greater investment in income opportunities and poverty reduction, and Islamic education programs should be increased for all
• Government should guarantee the security of militants during peace talks and arrange for a better life for them afterwards.
• National and international forces should stop their raids and arrests and ad hoc detentions.

And my two favorites:

• The government should fight administration and moral corruption to secure the nation's trust in government.
• The government should bring peace and stop criminal acts.

These recommendations largely echo the details of the Karzai plan (except for the final two), which remains a fundamentally flawed framework for peace. The plan avoids tackling the political grievances that drive the insurgency, and instead moves from the premise that economic factors are the primary drivers for insurgent recruitment and that insurgents can be co-opted through financial incentives. This flies in the face of numerous assessments of the insurgency that indicate that fighters join the insurgency for more complex reasons than job opportunities. Many have joined due to their anger with the Afghan government, which they perceive as corrupt, illegitimate, and predatory. In addition, the plan utilizes the government figures perceived by the insurgency to be corrupt and abusive as the main interlocutors in the reintegration process. It also relies on weak community authorities to implement reintegration, lacks clarity on who is eligible for reintegration and ignores the organizational coherence of the insurgency itself.
With just three brief days of meetings, an unrepresentative assembly, and only able to issue non-binding recommendations, the jirga gave little serious scrutiny to the Karzai plan, nor did it attempt to provide meaningful alternatives. The real objective instead was to enhance Karzai's prestige before the international community and maintain their support. With no meaningful domestic checks on his policies, the process demonstrated again that the international community remains Karzai's most important constituency, not the Afghan people. Karzai is relying on the fact that we aren't paying too much attention to the details. Unless we start asking -- and empowering a wider range of Afghan actors to ask for themselves -- tougher questions about how to achieve a sustainable security in Afghanistan, it's hard to see how this session's ringing endorsements of peace will be borne out in actual changes in policy and practice

[murad afghan]

^Taliban are the enemies of the nation. We do not need em in the Jirga

those Taliban who are working for Pakistani and Arab interest should not be invited to any future peace negotiation . they should be dealt with iron hand.

[MeemWawMeemNoon]

As long as Afghanistan mixes religion and politics and do not involve foreign forces they are in serious jeopardy of going to a situation that is worst than what Afghanistan saw between 1992-1996. They are going to wish that they go could turn back time and accept the iron fist of the Taliban that ruled between 1996-2001. They did bring peace, albeit with an iron fist.

If the foreign forces are not involved in Afghan politics--as much as I hate for them to be involved--Afghans will never see a day of peace. Afghans are not able to govern themselves, at least not for now. History is the discriminator, and it is not on the side of the Afghan people. Afghan people are not a governable type of people. There is too much misplaced pride.

I don't like a return of the Taliban regime because when they ruled they did it with their own interpretation of Islam, backed by Saudi Arabian money, and the ISI of Pakistan dictating policies within the country. Of course, Uncle Sam being in-charge.

This categorically proves that religion and politics don't mix.

Another example of a mixture of religion and politics that went sour was the darkest part of the 90's for Afghanistan between 1992-96.

Since the "invasion" of Western forces, life in Afghanistan has somewhat become "normal." Normal in the sense people can move along with their daily lives. The presence of Western forces are considered as an "invasion" because they are considered as not having a right to be there.

Well, that can also be said about the Taliban "invasion." What right did they have to rule with an iron fist?

So, if you are going to allow the Taliban in the table talks, therefore you must allow the Western forces in the table talks. At least they are the reason that these talks can happen with the voice of Afghans, to a certain degree. During the Taliban regime, Afghans did not have a voice. It was assumed that Afghans were happy. Of course, it can easily assumed when you have a brute regime that forces religion down your throat!

At the end of the day, it is the Afghan people who are suffering. The Taliban don't belong there and neither do the foreign forces. The irony of the this whole situation is that the Taliban are still being funded by foreign sources, and the Western forces are obviously foreign. The same players are playing both sides. How sad.

Therefore, you have to allow both of them at the table. Allow the monsters, the Taliban, that were created by the Bigger Monster, the Western forces, to give their creators a hard time. The puppet and the puppet-master are both at it and in the middle you have innocent Afghan people. A tug-of-war with Afghan lives as the rope.

The situation in Afghanistan is such that Western forces won't leave and neither are the Taliban. So, in order to bring peace to Afghanistan Karzai has to bend over backwards for both of them.

The only solution I see is for the Pashtun to start an uprising against the Taliban and get rid of them. Thereafter, the Western forces won't have a raison d'etre to be there. This type of peace will come at a cost where more innocent lives will be taken. A solution I don't like.

The other option is to allow the Taliban inside the system of the Afghan government and allow time to get rid of them.

Therefore, all parties must be involved to have a chance of peace. I think Karzai is doing the right thing. Sadly, but true.

[MeemWawMeemNoon]

Yes, I agree that they are our citizens. Being citizens does not mean that you have a carte blanche and do whatever you want to do.

The Pashtun have to stand in their way, because they know their mentality. There are ways through the Tribal Elders that something can be done. The Tribal Elders have to issue a statement that their actions are not welcomed. This I don't see happening.

These animals, the Taliban, will not disappear until they are given a seat like the other animals who are in the Parliament of Afghanistan.

Thereafter, Afghan officials have to work hard to get rid of corruption.

Nonetheless, the foreign forces have to stay in Afghanistan--AT ALL COSTS. Otherwise, Afghanistan will go into another civil. This civil war will take care of whoever is left--either they will die or leave Afghanistan for good. I am exaggerating the outcome; however, I am doing it to show the need for the Western forces to stay there.

[MeemWawMeemNoon]

Isnt that what your religion wants? Islamic Shariah.

That is exactly what the Taliban did. bring Islamic shariah. I remember it like it was yesterday.

A few facts


1)The country was in peace. crime did not exist in Kandahar.
2)Everyone minded their own business.
3)Everyone knew if they do so and so it has a consequence.

Brute force will cause anyone to be disciplined. However, people throughout Afghanistan did not like to be ruled with an Islamic Law, and that being interpreted by politically motivated people.

Taliban used Islam with brute force to rule. Today, those who were ruled under the Taliban curse them. There was peace because people did not dare to talk.

They brought peace, as I mentioned it. However, if that peace was by the choice of the people, they would have been sad to see them leave. The Taliban got rid of the chaos that the Mujaahidden brought. However, once they took power, they brought their own version of chaos.

The war in Afghanistan just keeps taking a different form; however, it is still the same war to gain power. Nothing more nothing less. The Taliban brought peace though force, but the Taliban were not there to simple bring peace--they were there as a puppet regime for the Pakistani ISI. That is the difference.

[Azmatullah]

The only solution I see is for the Pashtun to start an uprising against the Taliban and get rid of them. Thereafter, the Western forces won't have a raison d'etre to be there. This type of peace will come at a cost where more innocent lives will be taken. A solution I don't like.

The other option is to allow the Taliban inside the system of the Afghan government and allow time to get rid of them.

So you encourage Pashtuns killing Pashtuns? Why am i not surprised.

Some who fight in the ranks of the Taleban are normal village people but they have left their homes and families to resist those that have invaded their country, do you want them killed too?

[MeemWawMeemNoon]

So you encourage Pashtuns killing Pashtuns? Why am i not surprised.

Some who fight in the ranks of the Taleban are normal village people but they have left their homes and families to resist those that have invaded their country, do you want them killed too?

It is unfortunate that innocent Pashtuns have been involved.

This is where I don't like the first option. I don't want anymore of my beloved people to die. If you noticed there was two solutions that I proposed. It would be nice to quote the whole thing and not pick and choose what you want. This is called intellectual dishonesty. You should not do this next time. This is what people do with the Holy Quran and brainwash innocent people.

These Taliban should not have been in Afghanistan in the first place. Their distorted ideologies have brought more harm than good to Afghanistan. It is will their selected interpretation of the Holy Quran that they have managed to get a lot of people on their side.

These people that they have managed to get on their side are Pashtun. They know that Pashtun are loyal and they are using the loyalty of their own people. It is unfortunate, but it is true, that the Taliban are using the innocent Pashtun to stay in Afghanistan. The Taliban have no regard for these innocent and clean hearted villagers. They don't. They know that they won't turn on them. That is why they are able to remain there. If these Taliban were in any other part of Afghanistan other than the Pashtun dominated areas, they would have been killed.

Therefore, it is obvious that these Taliban are misusing the loyalty of the Pashtun.

When the Taliban punished or killed many people in Afghanistan, they had no care for whether those people were Pashtun, Tajik, Uzbak, or any other ethnic group, or for that matter Muslim. The punished or killed based on Shariah. Hence, they should be given the same dose of their own medicine.

The Taliban are using the Western forces being there as an excuse to stay there. In fact, the Western forces don't belong there and neither do the Taliban. The only differences is that the Taliban brought the Western forces there. The ISI brought the Taliban there with the help of Saudi Arabia and America. It was all planned. They needed a good excuse to go into Afghanistan. The Taliban happily complied.

See where I am going with this?

It is all a game. Tell me? Who is funding the Taliban?

The only solution is to have the Taliban in the Parliamentary system of Afghanistan. No other solution. Any other solution would cause more bloodshed.

Next time, please don't pick and choose what you think or want me to say. Don't be intellectually dishonest. Take everything I say. Don't take one and leave something else.

[MeemWawMeemNoon]

MWMN,
What about the Taliban that are fighting against western Invasion?

There is no point. The Western forces are not changing our religion. Let them bring some change. All the West cares for is to use our natural resources. I say, let them. I rather have a prosperous Afghanistan then to always be at war.

If these people leave, you will see a type of war never ever seen in Afghanistan. More innocent Pashtun will be killed. More innocent Tajiks, Uzbaks would be killed.

We can't govern ourselves for now. Let someone else do it.

Those who live in Western countries don't have a problem being ruled by a Western government. Why do we complain when they are ruling us in Afghanistan.

I don't like this; however, any other solution will cause more bloodshed.

[MeemWawMeemNoon]

I just dont get it how you guys are saying their version of Islam was different.

You cannot force religion down people's throat. The difference starts there and can go on and on and on.

[Azmatullah]

Don't pick and choose? Isn't that what you were doing with Ozy posts not so long ago? And your post was too long, i wasn't replying to all the points you raised, which is why i selected the part i wanted to address.

[MeemWawMeemNoon]

LOL...

with ozy it was a complete misunderstanding.

If you can't read the whole thing and respond to everything that was said collectively, DON'T BOTHER RESPONDING AT ALL.

In fact, the only point you "chose" to respond to was already refuted by me in the same post.

Try again.

[شمله ور خراساني]

Momin, Taliban only killed northern alliance. They did not kill people at random.

Would they really have killed innocent people, they would never have been so successful now. Look at Afghanistan. They are winning the war because people support them.