Taliban attack Pakhtu Poet´s Shrine

[ScimitarXEdge]

The Taliban's relationship with the ISI is an intricate one dealing with several layers of organization; on the most base and outward level its filled in ranks with your emotionally galvanized sincere warriors who believe they're legitimately fighting a just cause. usually are completely in the dark about what's happening within the upper echelons which are actively working with the ISI. The ISI itself is its own type of "shadow Government" the Pakistani Military are just cannon fodder to them. Hence you have this elabborately crafted facade where these Tribals think Mullah Omar is some legit Mujahideen Uber Warrior and that the Haqqani network are their brethren against the infidel. Pakistan is essentially a fiefdom of different fractionalized entities, each wanting their chunk. Hence the how it's possible for Taliban to fight Paki Military cannon fodder, while being manipulated by the ISI.

[khushal]

Why would the ISI manipulate the Taliban or any other group to attack Pak military installations and personal when the PAk military is an asset of the ISI. Why are they and how are they able to just manipulating the Taliban and not the other Kashmiri, and panjabi militant groups to attack Pak military. Are the Baluch separtists also manipulated by the ISI. The Afghan resistance were pedicured and manicured back in the 80s and the result of all that is what you see today.
The reason you see this extreme form of resistance from the pashtun society is because in the 30+ years of conflict the seculars have been bought, the tribal traditionalists have been killed off, the only ones that are left are these Talibs. There are many elements of the Taliban. There is this irrational religious extremest element who everyone despises but tolerates, Why would anyone spend the resource to stamp out this extremist element when they dont have the resources to carry out the war at hand against a superpower with unlimited amount of resources and is showing no signs of giving up the fight.

Even during the American revolutionary war against the Brits, there were southern feudal elements for the slavery and their were northern industrialist elements who were against the slavery created a huge conflict between the different elements against the Brits. There war a time when the feudal Southerners tolf the indsutrial northers that they would rather be with the Brits than give up their feudal way of life. The northerners industrialists tolerated the feudal southerners because they were needed to carry out the war at hand against a much stronger opponent. Most historians agree that this unresolved matter after the revolutionary war lead to two societies in one nation that lead up to the American civil war.

[unknownprince]

The Taliban's relationship with the ISI is an intricate one dealing with several layers of organization; on the most base and outward level its filled in ranks with your emotionally galvanized sincere warriors who believe they're legitimately fighting a just cause. usually are completely in the dark about what's happening within the upper echelons which are actively working with the ISI. The ISI itself is its own type of "shadow Government" the Pakistani Military are just cannon fodder to them. Hence you have this elabborately crafted facade where these Tribals think Mullah Omar is some legit Mujahideen Uber Warrior and that the Haqqani network are their brethren against the infidel. Pakistan is essentially a fiefdom of different fractionalized entities, each wanting their chunk. Hence the how it's possible for Taliban to fight Paki Military cannon fodder, while being manipulated by the ISI.

In moments of history, many nations or organizations may have the same interests at that specific moment.


Your argument is full of flaws, and if we are to go by your reasoning, then every single resistance movement in the world is not legit. The Vietnamese resistance was not legit because Russia and China actively supported their resistance for their own interests. The Chinese resistance to the British was not legit. Heck, even Gandhis resistance to the British was not legit simply because nations like China were interested in having the British expelled from India. This is what you are implying, isn't it?

Resistance to foreign intervention is something that every nation in the world has a right to, and has used. To deny this simply because X,Y, and Z support the defeat of America (for their own interests obv) is beyond absurd.

It is retarded.

Another point, there has rarely ever been a moment in history where surrounding nations did not share common interests, or did not have their interest align.

So for Afghanistan, the regional countries all want the US out, and it looks like they will get their way, BUT to the common Afghan who is resisting, it matters not whether the Chinaman, Russo man, Persian, or Pakistani supports him or not - He wants the US out!

[ScimitarXEdge]

too bad that wasn't my argument.


nice try though

my argument was that manipulative elements like the ISI and Haqqanis are seizing opportunity to exploit legitimate resistance for their own agenda. This is no way tantamount to saying resistance against Imperialism is wrong. Fighting Imperialism is a a righteous cause on every front; even in the door steps of the White House. Even if America weren't in Afghanistan and Pashtuns decided to travel to China to fight imperialists, this would be legitimate resistance.

[khushal]

too bad that wasn't my argument.


nice try though

my argument was that manipulative elements like the ISI and Haqqanis are seizing opportunity to exploit legitimate resistance for their own agenda. .

This is true, but nothing can be done about it momentarily. Most average Afghans don't like either the ISI or the Haqqanis. Just like America would never be trusted in Iraq(because the backstabbing was exposed during the first gulf war when the First Bush promised Iraqis support against Saddam for rebellion but were left to be butchered because America allowed the Iraqi Army to use helicopters against the resistance) similarly, the ISI will never be trusted by Afghans because the backstabbing has been exposed.

[randolph85]

that just shatters your dream of connecting taliban to isi so now you make up things such as their "pledge is superficial".

nothing superficial here,they wacked the col cuz they dont give a damn about them.

no, the fact that the afghan taliban tell the paki taliban to fight the US/Afghan troops in afg and not the paki military in pakistan pretty much tells the whole story.

[khushal]

no, the fact that the afghan taliban tell the paki taliban to fight the US/Afghan troops in afg and not the paki military in pakistan pretty much tells the whole story.

It just says the resistance is not centralized and each group has their own interests. This story is as old as the pashtun tribes themselves. Tribal societies have a hard time coming together under one agenda. Each tribe is like a different nation and each one has different interests. The only time you see tribes coming together is if they have a common enemy. It is because of this tribal conflict, the ISI and the Haqqannis are able to use the situation to their own advantage.
read this report about how they are taking advantage of it.
Haqqani Network Influence in Kurram and its Implications for Afghanistan | Combating Terrorism Center at West Point

As long as NATO presence is in Afghanistan, the pashtun society are unable to react to this problem.

[randolph85]

It just says the resistance is not centralized and each group has their own interests. This story is as old as the pashtun tribes themselves. Tribal societies have a hard time coming together under one agenda. Each tribe is like a different nation and each one has different interests. The only time you see tribes coming together is if they have a common enemy. It is because of this tribal conflict, the ISI and the Haqqannis are able to use the situation to their own advantage.
read this report about how they are taking advantage of it.
Haqqani Network Influence in Kurram and its Implications for Afghanistan | Combating Terrorism Center at West Point

As long as NATO presence is in Afghanistan, the pashtun society are unable to react to this problem.

well there is a clear distinction between the ttp and the afghan taliban. the afghan taliban who the paki establishment have kind words for, and the ttp who they call insurgents funded by foreigners. despite the fact that both groups have a de facto agreement of cooperation.

despite this, there is a clear leadership among both groups. if they are as unorganized as u think they are, then this flies in the fact of both movements proclamations and pr image.

[khushal]

^^^^
Look what happened when the Soviets withdrew. Most pashtun fighters quit the fight and returned to their villages. when the Najib government fell only because aid stopped from the collapse of the soviet Union, the Pashtuns were fighting among each other because of their tribal social structure while the Tajiks Uzbeks and Hazaras were much more organized and united. It was Mullah Omar that united the pashtuns by putting on Muhammad(sws) cloak and proclaiming himself as the Emir mumaneen, it was very similar to how Abdali proclaimed himself King, before Abdali, the Afghans didnt have a King. If you want to unite the Afghan tribes, you must somehow convince the tribes of legitimacy. Abdali was very successful and so was Omar Hotak in a way. Remember Pashtuns never admit and their actions will never portray inferiority to others including other pashtuns, The leader has to treat them as equal if they are going to get respect of the tribes.

What Daud did by abolishing the Royalties and declaring a modern republic and what Karzai is doing under so called democratic system will not work in Afghanistan. The Soviets were and the Americans are too blind to see this because all they know is coming in with a powerful military and break the will of the people and establish a client state. That's all they know is because that has worked in other places.