Extreme Humuliation of Women in Sudan and other Arab Countries

[Catya Sher]

Applause !
Toramana is defeated, must retreat to side lines to take care of wounds at least til Scimitar has another vacation to fight him !

About the slaves becoming rulers, good point.
The Slave Dynasty in India - the Mamluks in Egypt and Middle East...
those are remarkable examples.

[Toramana]

Clearly Pashtunwali is static as these values are considered the Definition of Pashtoon values; hence any compromise of them would be a deviation of what's Pashtoon and would be deemed disgrace.

What a non-sensical claim. Unlike religion which is assumed to be ordained by the divine/super-natural and so has an eternity and constancy (absoluteness) associated with it, values of Pashtunwali are derived from the historical experiences of our forefathers as they tried to respond to the challenges from nature to their (individual/collective) survival and in doing so emphasized certain human capacities in us. For example, in Pashtun society hundred years ago, hardiness and aggression were valued (because they were important attributes for survival at that point of time )compared to today when softness and polite behaviour have become more important and so are valued more. Likewise, clan-cohesion/loyalty was much valued in the old value-system because there were no higher(state/administrative) structures that could provide security/protection against any aggression. So culture continuously changes with old values and ways discarded and new ways/values adopted/invented as the requirement of the time.

See it's arguments like this that demonstrate that you speak from the perspective of someone completely outside of Pashtoon culture. You speak Pashto, but there is serious doubt if you are one or just learned Pashto recently due to the high volume of Pashto training for Geopoltical purposes.

Man you are a strange person. I am twice as much a Pashtun as you are half an Arab. Rest, there are many members that personally know me on this board. Moreover, I also have relatives on this board. But why shouldn't we hold a competition to determine as who knows Pashto more? Would that be acceptable to you?

The reason I respond when you reference Arabs is because you always wanted to play Ethnic card to try and stimulate animosity between people of different ethnicities. There's NO REASON to even mention the Ethnicity of people involved if your goal is merely to condemn the act and NOT make a racial/ethnic statement. Especially when Sudanese are not Arabs, but Arabic speaking Africans.

Look I am talking for Pashtuns because being a Pashtun I feel for them and see them victim of different interests and politics. If that sounds ethnic-centeric to you that is your problem. Obviously, you are more concerned with Arab interests though disguised as Islam and would like to stigmatize anything coming in the way of that cause.

[Alchemist]

You want to talk about humiliation?

why don't you google "porn" and see some... see if you can find any Muslim women getting humiliated on camera.

Not only they humiliate their women but they also make a profit out of it. Its bigger than hollywood...wrap ur noodle around that ...Mr.Moralist.

[Toramana]

You assume your moral standards are true; which there's no basis except an Appeal to Popularity. Appeal to Novelty, and other very generic Logic Fallacies Secularists usually peddle.

If my modus-operandi were appeal to popularity, etc., I would've been making use of jargon and ideas (Al-Qaueda and Muslim Ummah) that are the most popular here. And the moral standards that I consider as higher and so refer to have been evolved by humanity after extensive experimentation and deliberation (as such there is a higher degree of universality, generality, and objectivity attached to it).

On the contrary, Rafiq Edge, I have an impression about you i.e., your knowledge of the things is generally very superficial and abstract and not the kind of intricate and detailed understanding required for clarifying things or identifying contested points. You mostly avoid delving into the fundamental of things and make use of sophistry to make your arguments forceful.

[Manzareh]

ScimitarXEdge has just nuked someone so bad that they are replying with mutated words. ouch

[randolph85]

You want to talk about humiliation?

why don't you google "porn" and see some... see if you can find any Muslim women getting humiliated on camera.

Not only they humiliate their women but they also make a profit out of it. Its bigger than hollywood...wrap ur noodle around that ...Mr.Moralist.

didn't u know, to non muslims thats artistic expression and completely healthy!

[Alchemist]

If my modus-operandi were appeal to popularity, etc., I would've been making use of jargon and ideas (Al-Qaueda and Muslim Ummah) that are the most popular here. And the moral standards that I consider as higher and so refer to have been evolved by humanity after extensive experimentation and deliberation (as such there is a higher degree of universality, generality, and objectivity attached to it).

On the contrary, Rafiq Edge, I have an impression about you i.e., your knowledge of the things is generally very superficial and abstract and not the kind of intricate and detailed understanding required for clarifying things or identifying contested points. You mostly avoid delving into the fundamental of things and make use of sophistry to make your arguments forceful.

"extensive experimentation and deliberation"...what on earth are you talking about?

Please clarify for once what you are talking about... obviously the majority that Scimitar means isn't about this forum but the media in general.

[Toramana]

Here's a startling revelation for you; something isn't "Valid" JUST because it's "Newer"; I know when you say "advanced" you mean "Newer"; there's nothing "advanced" with tolerating corruption.

No, that is absolutely wrong. "Advanced" is not semantically the same as "NEW". "New" in my opinion mean "differentness" or "distinctiveness" or "something with its own individuality" although sometimes it may also imply "advanceness". For example, When 500 copies of a specific mathematic book are printed without including further/higher knowledge, every copy in having its own individuality is NEW but not "advanced".

Advanced is a more specific word that implies the property of being more relevant, more effective, funtionaly more optimal, structurally more complex, having more utility, etc.

In this specific case that we are dealing with i.e., the moral standards, advanced would mean "more universal", "more objective", "more general", "more in keeping with a human's self-image of a being with rationality and notion of self-respect and dignity", "better balancing individual rights versus collective interest", etc.

[ScimitarXEdge]

What a non-sensical claim. Unlike religion which is assumed to be ordained by the divine/super-natural and so has an eternity and constancy associated with it, values of Pashtunwali are derived from the historical experiences of our forefathers as they tried to respond to the challenges to their (individual/collective) survival from nature and in doing so emphasized certain human capacities in us. For example, in Pashtun society, hundred years ago, hardiness and aggression were valued (because they were important attributes for survival at that point of time )compared to today when softness and polite behaviour have become more important and so are emphasized. Likewise, clan-cohesion/loyalty was much valued in the old value-system because there were no higher structures that could provide security/protection.



Man you are a strange person. I am twice as much a Pashtun as you are half an Arab. Rest, there are many members that personally know me on this board. Moreover, I also have relatives on this board. But why shouldn't we hold a competition to determine as who knows Pashto more?
Would that be acceptable to you?

[/QUOTE]


What a nonsensical claim eh? That's why is Pashtunwali still practiced, I have seen no amendments to Pashtunwali; the Modern era and all it's bells and whistles have not altered or amended Pashtunwali, and it seems like the chance of altering it are slim to none. Only a few

You clearly have no idea what you're talking about; peddling the usual Generic "Appeal to Novelty" argument you always do; which tells me you quite possibly lack actual educational credentials since anyone who has an advanced education knows such arguments are considered logical fallacies. You're merely projecting what YOU WISH Pashtoons were like/what you want Pashtoons to be, not how Pashtoons really are.

While we can agree that Pashtunwali is derived from ecological relationships; so is Islam; and furthermore these ecological relationships are products of human biological developments. So they're not subject to "change" for the human species in the sense you speak of. As evolutionary time scales are VAST. Lastly Pashtunwali has always had both a hard/strong and soft/gentle aspect, this is not anything knew nor is there emphasis anything unique to the Novelty Appeal you're conveying.

In Summary your understanding of Pashtunwali demonstrates a FALSE, Culturally Defined Lense/Prism which is not derived from someone Native to Pashtoon culture but a complete and utter outsider; and more specifically an outsider who was bred with the cultural and moral heritage of Europeans. And I know this because your views represent the laxity to social corruption and seeming patronage of it with impunity.

If there exists Pashtoons who think/feel this way it's not because they're "evolving with the times" as individuals like yourself so desperately try to DECEPTIVELY postulate; it's because they have been brainwashed and corrupted. Yes that's right CORRUPTED.

Even my HALF Arab side is more Pashtoon than you are; at least they hold essentially the same values as Pashtoons. Where as you; claim to be Pashtoon, born and raised in Pashtoon lands but yet when you type, run your proverbial cyber mouth your ideas sound like they're coming from your typical Pink faced European.

Even your comment shows you're not from a Pashtoon background; because all Pashtoons know Pashtoon identity is patrilineal. If the father is Pashtoon then the child is Pashtoon.

If you are Pashtoon which I have serious doubts on, you are most definitely a corrupted one and all you do is hide behind seemingly Lofty sounding Termnology like "Modernization" and "Advancement" as a guise for your corruption, and deteriorated standards to cultivate amongst Pashtoons; which is destructive.

Now you might jump on the typical Imperialist motivated trend and accuse me of "thinking like an Arab"; but the reality is it only seems that way because at least ones from Yemen, have a culture which is very similar to Pashtoons. And this developed independently of each other, not because of Arabs forcing beliefs on Pashtoons, but because they understood the same relationships with our ecology that Pashtoons did. Even Yemenis have a dance which is resembling Attan called Bar'ah.

See for yourself:


One guy even has a Zeberghali like the Attanchi have; of course you wouldn't know this because you have No knowledge of Arabs or their culture except whatever media brainwashes you with. They could be Afghans in how they dress. You think Al-Qaeda extremism is what Arabs practice in their homes, but Arabs love music, love dance, love poetry just like Pashtoons do. Al-Qaeda and Talibanism is a threat to Arabs as it is to Pashtoons.


I vocally detest Al-Qaeda and believe me I find Al-Qaeda teaching suicide bombing is also a corruption, but Al-Qaeda is a very recent problem for Pashtoons, the Europeans have been a problem for Pashtoons for the last 200 years. For you to use Al-Qaeda to justify the promotion of their values demonstrates your concern for Pashtoons is just a bunch of jargon to perpetuate the cultural diseases of Europeans.

Also although Al-Qaeda sicken me by how they kill Pashtoons or any innocent civilians for that matter, we still have a chance for a future despite this. But when Europeans use Radioactive Weapons on our soil, What kind of future will we have? More deformed Babies, Pashtoons crippled permanently? You are so silent or you look for a diversion.

At least I condemn Al-Qaeda and Taliban; you pretend to be against Imperialists then you praise them the next minute. I know your next reaction will be that I live in the West, the Heartland of the Imperialist/Infidel. This is true I never denied or pretended I didn't. Unlike you who stages that he was raised in Pashtunkhwah but resides in Canada. However, unlike you I'm not here to copy/imitate this society, to learn what I need to learn to make sure their fitnah comes to an end.

We can have the Pashto battle; but I won't say I know Pashto better, in fact if you seriously studied Pashto with the CIA it's possible because of your formal training you know better than I do. We can still hold a competition, but let's wait until the next weekend I go back to my job tomorrow. I won't have much time.

[abubaker]

great to see the Muslims uniting against a common foe

keep it up guys

[Toramana]

Here's a startling revelation for you; something isn't "Valid" JUST because it's "Newer"; I know when you say "advanced" you mean "Newer"; there's nothing "advanced" with tolerating corruption. What's crude here is your lack of standards; not the punishment for a crime. Maybe if you had morals you'd see that it's not the punishment that's the problem; but the person's choice to indulge in their corruption that illicit the punishment which is. Don't do anything wrong, no punishment. So much for your fraudulent claims of logic.

Here we are primarily concerned with two questions i.e., (1) What is to be considered a sin? (2) what kind of punishment is appropriate ? The definition of (moral) corruption or sin is not absolute but rather relative. Same is also true of "appropriate punishment" for a sin. Now which concept of sin and punishment (or which moral principle) should be employed; that of Islam or Judiasm or Chistianity or Hinduism, or what?

When I say advanced, I mean the moral standard which better balances individual rights versus collective interest (societal interest)...Only that act should be considered a sin which disturbs this balance and the punishment should be such that it preserves the dignity and self-respect of the individual as well as secures the interest of the society...An individual may err...that is why we have the concept of restorative justice(against the retributive justice)...

Anyhow, that moral principle would be advanced which optimizes both the interest, individal as well as society's interest (i.e. it is more objective )and is acceptable to a larger part of humanity (i.e. it is more universal), and that can be applied in more contexts (i.e. it is more general)...

Now the treatment meted out to that poor woman is usually the punishment given to animals (because they are considered lacking rational faculty and self-consciousness)...This woman has become forever stigmatized...and doomed...what self-respect would she have?

[Toramana]

What a nonsensical claim eh? That's why is Pashtunwali still practiced, I have seen no amendments to Pashtunwali; the Modern era and all it's bells and whistles have not altered or amended Pashtunwali, and it seems like the chance of altering it are slim to none. Only a few

You clearly have no idea what you're talking about; peddling the usual Generic "Appeal to Novelty" argument you always do; which tells me you quite possibly lack actual educational credentials since anyone who has an advanced education knows such arguments are considered logical fallacies. You're merely projecting what YOU WISH Pashtoons were like/what you want Pashtoons to be, not how Pashtoons really are.

While we can agree that Pashtunwali is derived from ecological relationships; so is Islam; and furthermore these ecological relationships are products of human biological developments. So they're not subject to "change" for the human species in the sense you speak of. As evolutionary time scales are VAST. Lastly Pashtunwali has always had both a hard/strong and soft/gentle aspect, this is not anything knew nor is there emphasis anything unique to the Novelty Appeal you're conveying.

Gentleman, you are nominally a Pashtun being born to an Arab woman and as you claim it without any evidence/verifiable informmation a Pashtun father with an ad-mixture of other foreign blood (i.e., Tajak blood)...so much for your claim of being a Pashtun...How come a desert-inhabitant claims to be a mountain dweller like me...?


But the real thing that is itching you is your Arab sensitivity not some limitless love for Islam.


Rest, do you consider Pashtunwali and Islam equivalent? Which one is evolved and have they been evolved in the same ecological environments (remember ecology changes/varies both in time and space)? Are there any scriptures that formally stipulate rules of Pashtunwali? Ecological environments are subject to change...Are then the rules of Islam also subject to change? If you go to Mars where there are different ecological conditions, would values of Islam change as well? Take one stance i.e., either say Islam is universal (both in space and time) without dependence on environment or say it is dependent on the objective conditions (ecological) at a particular point of time and space.


Do you claim that Pashtun values are the same as they were two centuries back?

[Toramana]

Ok, rest tommorrow.

[ScimitarXEdge]

[SIZE=3]




Look I am talking for Pashtuns because being a Pashtun I feel for them and see them victim of different interests and politics. If that sounds ethnic-centeric to you that is your problem. Obviously, you are more concerned with Arab interests though disguised as Islam and would like to stigmatize anything coming in the way of that cause.

See look at you; you can't get out of the same vicious cycle; And I do mean cycle; you make Circular Arguments. and you accuse me of sophistry?

It has repeatedly been made clear to you that Pan-Islam ideology is inspired by Sayyid Jamaluddin Al-Afghani; and had absolutely nothing to do with "Arab interests" as you put it, Arabs didn't even have much of a political or regional interest at the time; If you know anything about his intellectual legacy he was opposed to the Arab tribes who were revolting against the Khilafah, those tribes eventually became the ruling families of Saudi Arabia and Kuwait; who if I might add were allies with the British and French that divided up the Middle East and of course Gran "Pashtunkhwah". So really Pan-Islam could in no way be bent on Arab interests, attempting to equate Pan-Islam with Al-Qaeda or an Arab agenda is the Epitome of Sophistry. Pan Islam is for Muslim interests and Muslims are Arabs, Kurds, Turks, Berbers, Punjabis, Bengalis, Thai, Indonesian and so on.

Please don't hide behind jargon; You're so disingenuous, You speak of trying to repel Arabs and defend Pashtoons, and yet Your perception of the world seems more sympathetic to Farangiyan and Angrezan than anything. If you were truly for Pashtoons you would support Pan-Islam; because Pan-Islam offers Pashtoons a chance at economic sustainability by disengaging slavery to foreign aid rom America/Europe to having mutual unilateral economic interreliance which can ecologically refurbish Pashtoon regions and provide lasting sustenance without having to conform to Imperialist cultural diseases, this would maintain Pashtoon culture and heritage instead of imposing a White European one. Opposing Pan Islam maintains this dependence which shows that it serves the interest of Imperialist Hegemony.

My CIA indoctrinated Malgaray, I'm not concerned for any ethnicities special interest; I am however concerned when someone attempts to use an ethnic ploy to divide and rule and help Angrezan and their Capitalist Imperialism maintain its hegemony.

[ScimitarXEdge]

No, that is absolutely wrong. "Advanced" is not semantically the same as "NEW". "New" in my opinion mean "differentness" or "distinctiveness" or "something with its own individuality" although sometimes it may also imply "advanceness". For example, When 500 copies of a specific mathematic book are printed without including further/higher knowledge, every copy in having its own individuality is NEW but not "advanced".

Advanced is a more specific word that implies the property of being more relevant, more effective, funtionaly more optimal, structurally more complex, having more utility, etc.

In this specific case that we are dealing with i.e., the moral standards, advanced would mean "more universal", "more objective", "more general", "more in keeping with a human's self-image of a being with rationality and notion of self-respect and dignity", "better balancing individual rights versus collective interest", etc.

I know that advanced doesn't mean "New"; but in other posts you constantly use Modernity as a justification which is arguing from a position of newness.

It seems to be from your arguments that you believe that Newness of ideas meams "more universe; more in keeping with rationality" and "self respect and dignity"

rather than qualitative analysis.