Atheists Vs Muslims

[ozymandias]

isn't the big bang/expansion still occouring?

That's quite a complicated question. Overall, I believe scientists think that the universe is still expanding, so in one respect, it is still occurring -- but on the other hand, The Big Bang often is used to describe the conditions during and immediately after the original massive expansion.

if something from nothing is not supernatural, then what is?

Not if it follows natural laws. That's nature -- and the vote is still out on if there was nothing prior to The Big Bang, or if it was a result of a Big Crunch.

what would you consider to be 'supernatural'?

su·per·nat·u·ral/ˌso͞opərˈnaCH(ə)rəl/

Adjectiveof a manifestation or event) Attributed to some force beyond scientific understanding or the laws of nature.
Noun:Manifestations or events considered to be of supernatural origin.
Synonyms:preternatural - unearthly - weird - miraculous

-- Basically something that is *not* the result of natural laws.

[faye]

'natural laws' are by whose definition? scientists with limited knowledge?

[ozymandias]

'natural laws' are by whose definition? scientists with limited knowledge?

Who else would be defining and exposing natural laws?

nat·u·ral law

Noun:

• A body of unchanging moral principles regarded as a basis for all human conduct.
• An observable law relating to natural phenomena.

We are going with definition 2 here.

[faye]

so, the scientists are dictators now? not accepted by myself, of course.
and like i said-with limited knowledge.

[ozymandias]

so, the scientists are dictators now?

No, why would you think that? Who else would you ask about the natural world, and the laws that govern it? A teacher? they get their knowledge from the scientists.

not accepted by myself, of course.

You have many people for company. Many reject reality and substitute their own.

and like i said-with limited knowledge.

Yes, like you said. Granted, their knowledge is less limited than most, and collectively, they are responsible for all knowledge this race have obtained.

[faye]

No, why would you think that? Who else would you ask about the natural world, and the laws that govern it? A teacher? they get their knowledge from the scientists.

You have many people for company. Many reject reality and substitute their own.

Yes, like you said. Granted, their knowledge is less limited than most, and collectively, they are responsible for all knowledge this race have obtained.

there is such a thing as observation and personal experience .

whose reality? i accept your version of reality, in, that you have it. but my idea of what is reality, is bigger than yours you are also my company, ozmosis.

now, now, ozmosis. you are getting carried away here. are you telling us now, that there was no knowledge, previous to scientists coming to conclusions, with what was supplied to them, by our creator? ie, brain,thoughts, geometry, energy etc.

[Afghanistan2010]

isn't the big bang/expansion still occouring?
if something from nothing is not supernatural, then what is?
what would you consider to be 'supernatural'?

His answer is always natural laws,but asked about natural laws he is unable to answer them,who brought these natural laws into the laws we observe.

we do not believe in magic as you think ,you are misunderstanding what we mean about supernatural.

If i ask you and scientists where does the mass come from which the Big Bang caused no one can answer them,and if i ask you how can two mountains (example) crash and can bring such perfect forms like that we observe in our universe.


by mathematical thinking the theory of example is flawed because you can't say 2= 1 or 0=1 without making mathematical errors like dividing zero or similar.


0< from nothing became 1 < something.

You are just ignorant and as you all other people about the fact that Jesus (pbuh) healed blind , brought dead people into life ( unexplainable).
Muhammad (pbuh) explained things in all matters with the revelation of Allah ( God ) the most high,he explained things you were some years ago unaware of them and you can search in the books of greeks and romans you will not find anything similar.And even if you find anything similar the one by the greeks and romans will be flawed.


It were your forefathers who believed in Angels and characterized them into females ( where Angel do not have any sex),they were the one who believed God has beard and old guy over the clouds,and that the Earth is flatt.

[ozymandias]

there is such a thing as observation and personal experience .

Let's stay on topic here. You asked who defines natural laws. If you are using your observations and personal experience to define natural laws, that pretty much makes you a scientist, in practice, if not in career.

whose reality? i accept your version of reality, in, that you have it. but my idea of what is reality, is bigger than yours you are also my company, ozmosis.

You are welcome to reject reality, and pretend your fictional reality is 'bigger' than the real one. I won't stop you.

now, now, ozmosis. you are getting carried away here. are you telling us now, that there was no knowledge, previous to scientists coming to conclusions, with what was supplied to them, by our creator? ie, brain,thoughts, geometry, energy etc.

Since nothing was 'supplied by a creator', someone had to be the first to discover every fact known to man -- and since discovering facts loosely makes someone a scientist, yes -- that is exactly what I am saying. I am not talking a career scientist, who makes a living doing research, but anyone that studies the world -- in the loosest definition of scientist -- exactly the same definition used by you when you asked if scientists are the ones defining the natural laws.

[ozymandias]

His answer is always natural laws,but asked about natural laws he is unable to answer them,who brought these natural laws into the laws we observe.

I've answered this repeatedly. Just because you ignore my answer, and insist there must be a 'someone' behind them does not mean there is. The answer is 'no one'.

we do not believe in magic as you think

By definition, if you are religious, you believe in magic and the supernatural -- and I am not talking stage magic, but true Harry Potter style magic.

,you are misunderstanding what we mean about supernatural.

If i ask you and scientists where does the mass come from which the Big Bang caused no one can answer them,

Once again, just because you ignore their answers does not mean they have no answer.

and if i ask you how can two mountains (example) crash and can bring such perfect forms like that we observe in our universe.

What are you even talking about? Geology is well understood these days.

by mathematical thinking the theory of example is flawed because you can't say 2= 1 or 0=1 without making mathematical errors like dividing zero or similar.

Huh? What are you trying to say?

0< from nothing became 1 < something.

Huh? What are you trying to say?

You are just ignorant and as you all other people about the fact that Jesus (pbuh) healed blind , brought dead people into life ( unexplainable).

Also historically not factual. There is no proof that these events actually occurred.

Muhammad (pbuh) explained things in all matters with the revelation of Allah ( God ) the most high,he explained things you were some years ago unaware of them and you can search in the books of greeks and romans you will not find anything similar.

Oh? Like what? A classic example muslims like to drag out is embroyology -- which not only did mohammad get wrong -- he copied from prior sources. Cosmology? Also wrong -- and also plagiarized. Geology? Wrong, and copied. What specifically are you talking about?

And even if you find anything similar the one by the greeks and romans will be flawed.

Indeed -- exactly like the copies in the koran are wrong and flawed.

It were your forefathers who believed in Angels and characterized them into females ( where Angel do not have any sex),they were the one who believed God has beard and old guy over the clouds,and that the Earth is flatt.

Huh? What does the fictional gender of a mythical creature even matter?

[Soldat_Amir]

I've answered this repeatedly. Just because you ignore my answer, and insist there must be a 'someone' behind them does not mean there is. The answer is 'no one'.



By definition, if you are religious, you believe in magic and the supernatural -- and I am not talking stage magic, but true Harry Potter style magic.



Once again, just because you ignore their answers does not mean they have no answer.



What are you even talking about? Geology is well understood these days.



Huh? What are you trying to say?



Huh? What are you trying to say?



Also historically not factual. There is no proof that these events actually occurred.



Oh? Like what? A classic example muslims like to drag out is embroyology -- which not only did mohammad get wrong -- he copied from prior sources. Cosmology? Also wrong -- and also plagiarized. Geology? Wrong, and copied. What specifically are you talking about?



Indeed -- exactly like the copies in the koran are wrong and flawed.



Huh? What does the fictional gender of a mythical creature even matter?

[Afghanistan2010]

Imran Khan PTI is a hypocrite - YouTube

lol

[faye]

Let's stay on topic here. You asked who defines natural laws. If you are using your observations and personal experience to define natural laws, that pretty much makes you a scientist, in practice, if not in career.

You are welcome to reject reality, and pretend your fictional reality is 'bigger' than the real one. I won't stop you.

Since nothing was 'supplied by a creator', someone had to be the first to discover every fact known to man -- and since discovering facts loosely makes someone a scientist, yes -- that is exactly what I am saying. I am not talking a career scientist, who makes a living doing research, but anyone that studies the world -- in the loosest definition of scientist -- exactly the same definition used by you when you asked if scientists are the ones defining the natural laws.

yas boss. i try to keep to topic.
so eg; a farmer who through his observations and personal experiences, makes conclusions about the workings of nature or the native peoples who learned of the medicinal benefits of plants, are scientists. i didn't know this.

do you have any proof that my 'supposed', by your DEFINITION, 'fictional' reality is in fact 'fictional' and that it is mere 'pretense?

we agree on that then. the creator created nothing from which was manifested something. ie; the big scrunch or the big bang....we are not sure yet what was manifested first.

[Asli]

I wonder what you look like.

Secondly go ahead refute that embrology video oh wait you couldnt.
off with your fairy tales

What is there to refute? The person does not refute the Quran, he is questioning where Muhammad (s) got the info from?

The person is questioning the language of the Quran, and thus questioning Arabic grammar.

The whole video is based in and around how to interpret the language used. Nothing more and nothing less. The person himself claims not to be a biologist. So, he is playing the semantics.

[Manzareh]

how can you judge the language of the Quraan when you dont speak or understand the language used in the Qur'aan? - you cant, you cant even translate the Quran into any language the closest you can get is a transliteration of the words used. iv been learning Fusha Arabic for only 12 weeks and i can say im truly amazed, infact im certain somebody that had some knowledge of the language used in the Qur'aan would be able to grasp how unique the Qur'aan is, its definitely miraculous.

[Manzareh]

I wonder what you look like.

Secondly go ahead refute that embrology video oh wait you couldnt.
off with your fairy tales

what fairy tales?