christianity...?

[faye]

what a pity scimitar is not here anymore. he was quite bright about these subjects. oh well.
anyone read the debate between the ash'arite and the muta'zilah? al-ghazali is such a beautiful writer. the way he expresses his thoughts is so lovely. i am delighted to read these intelligent peoples thoughts, from way back.
what a shame that people today, have lost that ability.
the muta'zilahites got it wrong though. they were outwitted by al-ghazali.

[RevolutionThroughReason]

that's ironic; since Al Ghazzali was arguing against using speculative reasoning and intellect and favoring pure blind dogma akin to the Taliban.

[RevolutionThroughReason]

here's an interesting video by Dr. Neil Tyson de Grasse

Creationists End Civilization - YouTube


he talks about Al Ghazali's ideas having an adverse impact on Muslims.

[faye]

i'll get back to you. i'm busy reading the 'deliverence from error', where al put all the others in their place.
anyway RTR, what would you know about al-ghazali?

[RevolutionThroughReason]

um well I've read a few of his treatises. He seems to hate people using their minds and reason.

[faye]

no, the opposite i believe. he talks about 'inspiration' as a category of knowledge which cannot be attained by 'reason'. this might be your objection.
he seems to fully believe in judgement and continuation of essence after death.
he is great to read. the beautiful way he expresses himself. you may be able to read him in arabic, which would be good.

[faye]

al-ghazali himself, uses his mind intensively, to analyse and give a critique of all the major views of reality, at that time, mathematics, philosophy, theology, atheism, logic etc, to look for his own truth. he stayed, though with a base of islam but said to not just be a blind believer.
he then went on a pilgrimage and path of contemplation for about 10 years and got right into sufism.
apparently he was accused of putting an end to islamic philosophy at that time, because of a book he wrote criticising other philosophers, including ibn sina. was later proved by someone else, to not have done what he was accused of. can't remember all the details, at this time of night.

that guy on the video is a pain, sputtering and carrying on. i wouldn't take too much notice of what he has to say about al-ahazali. he didn't even credit indians with the zero, just threw that in with his arab rave.

[Manzareh]

Al-Ghazali, an appreciation of the pursuit of true reality-based wisdom.

[Master Khan]

christianity is a joke now, they keep changing bible.
and there holiday don't make sense anyway like Easter and Christmas.
What Easter have to do with Bunny and Eggs lol.

once I told this British white girl
"What is Christmas" and she goes to me "ummmm..is it the day that God died"..lol.

[faye]

that's ironic; since Al Ghazzali was arguing against using speculative reasoning and intellect and favoring pure blind dogma akin to the Taliban.

he is a sufi, so how does that fit with taliban dogma?

[faye]

here's an interesting video by Dr. Neil Tyson de Grasse

Creationists End Civilization - YouTube


he talks about Al Ghazali's ideas having an adverse impact on Muslims.

i just reviewed this video. can you show me where al'ghazali says mathematics is the work of the devil?

this is from his autobiography 'deliverence from error'.

firstly he classifies mathematics as an 'exact science' but has a beef with the mental attitude of those that depend too much on that exact science, falling away from their religion and religious scholars backing completely away from the sciences.

"a grievous crime indeed, against religion, has been committed by the man who imagines that ISLAM is defended by the denial of mathematical sciences, seeing that there is nothing in revealed truth, opposed to these sciences by way of either negation or affirmation, and nothing in these sciences opposed to the truth of religion"

apparently al-ghazali was given a bad rap by a physicist, stephen weinberg and some dude, professor pervez hoodbhoy.
have you been mentally colonised, me ole son?

a very good rap is given on a site, www.monthly-renaissance.com "is al-ghazali really the halagu of science in islam?"

[Zirey]

--RTR,
Humanity and divinity are not different in the same way that 'tall' and 'short' are different. Consider a relevant analogy--yourself, for example. You are composed of two radically different, even opposite substances, spirit and matter. Yet these two are united in one person, yourself. Similarly, Jesus has two fundamentally different natures, human and divine, united in one Person. God is great.

There is abundant evidence that the early Christians believed in the Messiah's divinity. The proof is found in the Holy Scriptures, the several early Bible translations, and the many writings that the early Church produced. Even the pagans bore witness that Christians sang hymns "to Christ as to a god" (Pliny, around A.D. 112).
　
--Randolph85,
When it comes to an article of faith, Christians do not 'pick and choose' what to believe. We accept all that the Word of God teaches, even when it surpasses limited human reason. By contrast, any view of God that fits comfortably within the confines of human reason is going to be inaccurate.

About the Lord's cry from the Cross, there is nothing shameful about expressing one's pain verbally. That is part of what it means to be human. In your example, by contrast, lighting oneself on fire and remaining silent is not human but demonic!

Besides, you underestimate Jesus if you think He cried out merely for His own sake. He was the man for others. Everything He said from the Cross was for our sakes. By quoting Psalm 22 on the Cross, He showed, for example, that His human suffering was real and not faked. He does not sit aloof from our suffering but was acquainted with it firsthand, overcame it, and now gives His followers a share in His victory. Therefore we believers now enjoy the free gifts of forgiveness and eternal life.


Again, by quoting from Psalm 22, He showed that He was the fulfillment of what the Holy Scriptures foretold concerning the Messiah--and not only in Psalm 22 but also Isaiah 53 and other Scriptures. If He had not fulfilled what the Scriptures foretold concerning the Messiah, how would the early Christians have recognized Him as the promised Messiah?

--Master Khan
Christians do not change the Bible. Rather, God's Word changes people.
On the symbols associated with Easter, the bunny got included somewhere along the way because Easter occurs in the springtime, a time of fertility. Like the eggs, it is cultural or folk symbol rather than a Biblical one. However, the eggs are capable of a more theological significance, since they represent new life and therefore point to the newly resurrected Jesus, whom hundreds of eyewitnesses saw.

[randolph85]

first you are saying that he was crying out because he was a man, but now you are trying to tell me that he was crying out for mankind? so let me get this straight, god killed himself in order to forgive man for a burden that he himself placed on them? if i was a christian i would be wondering why i am being burdened with someone elses sin, instead of being grateful for someone dying (long before i was even born) to forgive me of a sin i didn't even commit.

and i don't think having the physical and mental fortitude to withstand the pain of being set on fire is demonic, especially when protesting government oppression. it just goes to show that a man has more mastery over the flesh than god himself supposedly did in jesus christ.

[RevolutionThroughReason]

[SIZE=2]--RTR,
Humanity and divinity are not different in the same way that 'tall' and 'short' are different. Consider a relevant analogy--yourself, for example. You are composed of two radically different, even opposite substances, spirit and matter. Yet these two are united in one person, yourself. Similarly, Jesus has two fundamentally different natures, human and divine, united in one Person. God is great.

Tall and short are different characteristically, this is the same as Divine and Human. The distinction between Tall and Short vs. Divine and Human is that Tall and Short measures one characteristic that is Length, where as divine and human correspond to a set of characteristics. Divine would be uncreated, human would be created. Divine would be Infinite, Human Finite. Divine is Absolute, Human is Nonabsolute. In much the same way we distinguish from Tall and Short. for something to be Divine and Human would become intrinsically self negating. The Analogy between spirit and body is not between because despite being different, Spirit and Body are both created, Neither are infinite, meaning having existed indefinitely, they both had definite beginnings.

In other words their characteristics are not innately negated. The characteristics of human and divine are innately negations. Also again if you say something is "composed" of "Divine and Human" natures; then you're saying something is Partially Divine and Partially Human; the Christian narrative says he's WHOLLY Divine and WHOLLY Human. Meaning tat he is ENTIRELY Composed of Human and ENTIRELY Composed of divinity. If he's only partially divine then he cannot be God, because God is Wholly Divine, Part does not equal into the whole. If we go with Wholly Divine/Wholly Human, they are complete negations. Furthermore if you say "Spirit" is divine and that and we're all composed of spirit; then this makes Jesus no different than any of us. And thus there is no special reason to affirm the divinity of Jesus.

Each case shows the claim is incoherent.

There is abundant evidence that the early Christians believed in the Messiah's divinity. The proof is found in the Holy Scriptures, the several early Bible translations, and the many writings that the early Church produced. Even the pagans bore witness that Christians sang hymns "to Christ as to a god" (Pliny, around A.D. 112).
　

Sure there is evidence that CERTAIN sects of Christians may have deified him; after all after the doctrine gained inroads with Pagan Converts, Pagans naturally put their own Spin. The question is, DID THE EARLY, as in generations that had contact with Jesus or those close TO jesus actually acknowledge his divinity. For this we find nothing. In fact. we find evidence to the contrary

Letters of Jesus' brothers not included in Bible (Jesus as human prophet) - YouTube

[faye]

so, from the human mind of imagining, one labels things as absolute, non-absolute, divine etc but that does not negate the possibility that 'human' is an aspect of the divine/ creator/allah, god.
as a cell is part of the formation of a whole human.
so what do you think the spirit is?
form is energy, they say in science. right? so what is spirit or essence?