Question to the atheists

[Levanaye Zalmaye]

OMG... a secularist is talking about Islam... what a day..
Secularists are the worst mouthed guys on this planet. They will start using abusive language as soon as they start losing their temper. But they will always use soft, respective and beautiful language for veena malik type people.

I couldn't care less how "secularists" talk. Why can't I talk about Islam? If Christians and atheists can write entire encyclopedias on Islam, can I not even speak about it?

In any case, I have observed here that some of the most outspoken Islamists on PF use the worst sort of language and do not fear using abuses and derogatory terms for others. Modesty and patience are the last two qualities that they show. If you don't believe me, I can post many examples for you. In fact, I have reported dozens of posts by your friends to the administrators many times and you can even ask them if you don't take my word for it.

[emkhan]

I couldn't care less how "secularists" talk. Why can't I talk about Islam? If Christians and atheists can write entire encyclopedias on Islam, can I not even speak about it?

In any case, I have observed here that some of the most outspoken Islamists on PF use the worst sort of language and do not fear using abuses and derogatory terms for others. Modesty and patience are the last two qualities that they show. If you don't believe me, I can post many examples for you. In fact, I have reported dozens of posts by your friends to the administrators many times and you can even ask them if you don't take my word for it.

I know many here use very bad language... But your talking about Islam and trying to remind to us seems to me you are "da lastonri maar". In english I would translate it as "the snake in sleeve lol"

[graveyardofempires]

^
you just love to the ignorance you are indulged in dont you ?

the cross is the symbol of Roman belief system and not the religion of christ.

your problem is you are deluding yourself into thinking that in Afghanistan your false idealogy will be accepted and that you will eb included int he Afghan /Pashtun identity.

the fact is yo will never be accepted among those people so the best option for you is to stay where ever you are for the rest of your pathetic life.

[graveyardofempires]

Emkhana wrora
i posted this thread for Ozymendis who somehow thought that peopel dont know evolution theory etc.
so i show him that there are tons of people who embrace Islam and explain why they did it and they were formerly atheists.

than comes this desperate attention seeker to provoke a reaction by saying that "beheading and stoning" to abuse Islam.
and later on he carry's on talking about what a person said about him personally while he thinks its ok for him to abuse Islam.

[emkhan]

Emkhana wrora
i posted this thread for Ozymendis who somehow thought that peopel dont know evolution theory etc.
so i show him that there are tons of people who embrace Islam and explain why they did it and they were formerly atheists.

than comes this desperate attention seeker to provoke a reaction by saying that "beheading and stoning" to abuse Islam.
and later on he carry's on talking about what a person said about him personally while he thinks its ok for him to abuse Islam.

I know them and their intentions. They want to create doubt in our minds but inshallah it will never happen. He, toramana, soldat amir, comrade pashtun and some other guys here are on a mission. They receive orders from dajjaal and dajjaal is paying them show them some day dreams.
But we are the followers of the truth, inshallah we will get them down. and they will run away.

[Levanaye Zalmaye]

^
you just love to the ignorance you are indulged in dont you ?

the cross is the symbol of Roman belief system and not the religion of christ.

Are you suggesting that the cross is a symbol of the old Roman pagan belief system and not Christianity? And then I am supposed to be the ignorant one? Please check your facts, I think you've gotten a few things mixed up.

your problem is you are deluding yourself into thinking that in Afghanistan your false idealogy will be accepted and that you will eb included int he Afghan /Pashtun identity.

the fact is yo will never be accepted among those people so the best option for you is to stay where ever you are for the rest of your pathetic life.

Firstly, I do not impose my beliefs on others. So my religious beliefs, which you mistake as my "ideology", are my personal problem which bear no impact on those with whom I interact. Please try to understand that.

I am already a part of a Pashtun family and I have more Pashtun friends in real life than you have seen in whichever foreign land you are living in, thank you very much. And again, I do not "fear" being rejected from Pashtun soceity or the Pashtun identity, I'm already a part of one but thanks for your concern.

By the way, as an exercise meant to clear some confusion, can you please differentiate between personal beliefs and culture for me?

[Levanaye Zalmaye]

I know many here use very bad language... But your talking about Islam and trying to remind to us seems to me you are "da lastonri maar". In english I would translate it as "the snake in sleeve lol"

So only a practicing Muslim can understand Islam? Islam is, in fact, an easy religion to understand.

Hmm.. perhaps your image of "secularists" as being a different breed of humans is a bit too far-fetched.

For instance, when I was a kid, I was told that since Hindus do not purify themselves after using the toilet, they're literally dirty people. I used to believe that if I ever came across a Hindu (whatever creature that was), I would throw up. But then I grew up.

[emkhan]

So only a practicing Muslim can understand Islam? Islam is, in fact, an easy religion to understand.

Hmm.. perhaps your image of "secularists" as being a different breed of humans is a bit too far-fetched.

For instance, when I was a kid, I was told that since Hindus do not purify themselves after using the toilet, they're literally dirty people. I used to believe that if I ever came across a Hindu (whatever creature that was), I would throw up. But then I grew up.

No, anyone can understand Islam if he has the ability to get the message. YOU, you know everything about Islam as you said. and still you deny the messages of God, it means that your heart has been stamped. muhr pe lagedalay dai.

I don't know about hindus don't purify themselves after using the toilet but I know one thing that there a smell coming out of their bodies ... why this is so ?
Secondly I was told here in England that some 70 years ago, these English people had no bath rooms in their houses. They used to take bath after months... and this is the truth... even now, these unbelievers take shower daily but still you can't stay beside him or her if your nose sensors are working. why is this so ?

[Levanaye Zalmaye]

No, anyone can understand Islam if he has the ability to get the message. YOU, you know everything about Islam as you said. and still you deny the messages of God, it means that your heart has been stamped. muhr pe lagedalay dai.

I believe that simply by virtue of being Muslim, many people can become good, upstanding individuals. At the same time, there are some who justify acts of great cruelty with their religion. Have their hearts been "stamped" as well? Or are people free to have their own beliefs?

I don't know about hindus don't purify themselves after using the toilet but I know one thing that there a smell coming out of their bodies ... why this is so ?
Secondly I was told here in England that some 70 years ago, these English people had no bath rooms in their houses. They used to take bath after months... and this is the truth... even now, these unbelievers take shower daily but still you can't stay beside him or her if your nose sensors are working. why is this so ?

Do you really believe that a person's personal beliefs have a direct link to the level of body odor that he/she emits? Like honesty, do you really believe that?

By the way, two of my Muslim friends, both of whom got educated in Madressas and are Hafiz-e-Quran, have terrible breath. How do you explain that? How do you think I should let them know without damaging our friendship?

[emkhan]

I believe that simply by virtue of being Muslim, many people can become good, upstanding individuals. At the same time, there are some who justify acts of great cruelty with their religion. Have their hearts been "stamped" as well? Or are people free to have their own beliefs?




Do you really believe that a person's personal beliefs have a direct link to the level of body odor that he/she emits? Like honesty, do you really believe that?

By the way, two of my Muslim friends, both of whom got educated in Madressas and are Hafiz-e-Quran, have terrible breath. How do you explain that? How do you think I should let them know without damaging our friendship?

I am not talking about an individual... I am talking about them as a whole...
You guys' problem is that you always pick individuals' actions or incidents... he did this and he did that. It reveals one's mental and intelligence level.
I don't I always talk about ideology, system or nation as a whole.

[Levanaye Zalmaye]

I am not talking about an individual... I am talking about them as a whole...
You guys' problem is that you always pick individuals' actions or incidents... he did this and he did that. It reveals one's mental and intelligence level.
I don't I always talk about ideology, system or nation as a whole.

Okay. So do people's personal beliefs that they have in their minds have a bearing on the amount of odor that they emit?

[emkhan]

Okay. So do people's personal beliefs that they have in their minds have a bearing on the amount of odor that they emit?

It was a response to your saying about hindus don't purify themselves after going to toilet. But still there is a question in this for your the science believer that why this is so ?

[Alchemist]

How will my personal beliefs disrespect anyone? After all, even within Muslims, there are so many divisions as to the very nature of Allah. Some say He has a physical form and others say He is everywhere and is hence formless. They both make takfir upon one another at every opportunity. I do not see how one's beliefs can disrespect anyone else. People should be free to have their own beliefs. What sort of a world would it be where we force people to believe as we do on pain of death?

Allah does not have a Nature. To say that would mean that he is comparable to things that do have a Nature. For He has said himself that there is NO THING that compares or is analogous to Him. Therefore His "nature" is incomprehensible and beyound the limits of our senses.
Allah's attributes are described in the Qur'an and there is no disputing those.
What the scholars of Islam differ on, most lay muslims don't even understand. The differences between the general body of Muslim philosophy is much smaller than the differences between the different sects of Christianity. Even the heretical sects that do wish to keep the fecade of Islam have to concede that the final word is the Qur'an.
Since the Qur'an is to every muslim, what state constitutions and laws are to you, it shouldn't be a surprise that disputes over what The Law is would occur between individuals. This is why there are court systems even in secular institutions because the interpretation of law requires people who understand it and apply it to different contexts. You may wish to believe that children should be able to drink at the age of 15 ...but in most western countries if you are caught selling or providing a minor with alcohol, you will be criminally charged. Now does the enforcement of laws by society enfringe on your "freedom" to do whatever you like? Yes!
So it doesn't matter what you believe. For the most part you have to compromise what you believe against what society in general "believes".
In any country if you are found committing treason, you will be given the worst form of punishment. Similarly in an Islamic community if you apostatized you have from a legal perspective, committed an act of treason.
You only delude yourself when you think your self to be free like some 19th century cowboy in midwest.

This might be too much for some members of Pashtun Forums to grasp but for me, a person's beliefs are of very little consequence. Since the dawn of man, we have sought answers to questions regarding our existence and the purpose of our lives and many different belief systems have spawned as a result. Religion, to me, is a personal matter and I have no problems with atheists, agnostics, practicing Muslims, people who are Muslim by name, zealots, etc. A person's beliefs are as of as much importance to me as the colour of their skin.


I don't have anything against Islam, nor do I wish that it ends or is "defeated". As far as matters of belief are concerned, I'm completely indifferent - that is my position on the subject. I care not who people worship because they choose to believe what they do and they are entitled to their beliefs. I do not identify people with regards to their beliefs in deities but I do so with regards to their nations.

Even though you say that, you do have a problem with people's beliefs.

Beliefs are the source of people's actions. For the most part you do disagree with the actions of Muslims. Most that do apostatize do have a problem. For example osho believes that "ghairat" is a sign of backwardness and a hinderence for pashtuns to "modernize". You believe that Islamic Laws should be replaced with Secular Laws ...but if that were to happen in effect muslims wouldn't be as muslim as christians are christains in the west - only in name.

Like I mentioned earlier, it is my belief that religion will eventually be replaced by a scientific understanding of the world but I never said that it should be that way nor did I say that I want it to be that way. I am simply apathetic to its fate. I might very well be wrong and hence I carefully mentioned that it was just my opinion, which could very well be the opposite of the truth.

It is not in the magesterium of science to explain to you how to live your life.
Even if you were believe in debunked pseudoscientific theories like evolution...what would you derive from it? That the selfish gene compels you to work for your own interests above the rest? That you must sleep with as many women as possible and spread your seeds as much as possible otherwise you wouldn't be fulfilling your function?

Atheism is a theological and philosophical matter and it has no link with an individual and his feelings towards or relationship with his nation or state.



In fact, throughout history, the most ardent nationalists have always been, at the very least, apathetic to theological considerations.

Regardless of what you "believe"...if you go to afghanistan as a pashtun and an afghan (and not what your other passport says) and declare your atheism...by law...you will be hanged!
It doesn't matter what YOU believe...it matters more what the community believes.

[Alchemist]

Are you suggesting that the cross is a symbol of the old Roman pagan belief system and not Christianity? And then I am supposed to be the ignorant one? Please check your facts, I think you've gotten a few things mixed up.

http://lmgtfy.com/?q=the+cross+pagan+symbol

[Michin Khel]

If afghanistan is only for muslims and there no place in it for non-muslims like levanay zalmay then what about sikhs and hindus of kandahar? Who according to kandaharis are very patriot afghans. In the same way sikhs of peshawer and khyber agency are very well integrated into pashtun society. If an athiest e.g zalmay doesnt impose his personal beliefs on others then how he can not be part of pashtun society?
Leavanay zalmay has grasp on pashtun matters much stronger than most of you guys. Just because he is athiest ,it doesnt mean he loses credibility as a pashtun...i wont advocate all athiests, but i have great respect for zalmay because he is great as a person and his heart beats for pashtuns...