Ask an American, agnostic and atheist man pretty much anything

[faye]

How wrong am I, according to your own "citations"? According to your logic, seizure symptoms equal mental illness, about the Prophet.

That is what you said, the "scholars" believed. That is your statement wrapped around a random cover up. And is insulting to Muslims.

And your also insulting Faye. When you call her spirituality a mere hallucinogen.

well, i am not able to be insulted by ozy.
he has his reality and i have mine. his is just a lot more boring.

[ozymandias]

How wrong am I, according to your own "citations"? According to your logic, seizure symptoms equal mental illness, about the Prophet.

I did not say that. I just pointed out that many researchers came to that conclusion.

That is what you said, the "scholars" believed. That is your statement wrapped around a random cover up. And is insulting to Muslims.

Which is why I made it a point to make it clear that it is not *my* opinion, but what some scholars think -- I am trying to *not* be personally offensive, given how touchy people are about that man.

You stated that seizures and hallucinations are caused by spirituality, and appeared to be using that as some sort of evidence that Mohammad's visions were real. I pointed out an alternative explanation that does not require belief in supernatural -- an alternative reason he had visions and seizures, that fits with known science and medicine. Take from that what you will.

And your also insulting Faye. When you call her spirituality a mere hallucinogen.

I'm sorry about that, but she has failed to provide any evidence it is anything else. It looks like a duck, quacks like a duck, and swims like a duck -- I have no reason to believe otherwise yet.

I don't mean to be offensive, and I honestly am sorry if I am, but it can't be new news to you, or her, that her visions are not proof of anything other than potential health issues.

[کیش]

I did not say that. I just pointed out that many researchers came to that conclusion.



Which is why I made it a point to make it clear that it is not *my* opinion, but what some scholars think -- I am trying to *not* be personally offensive, given how touchy people are about that man.

You stated that seizures and hallucinations are caused by spirituality, and appeared to be using that as some sort of evidence that Mohammad's visions were real. I pointed out an alternative explanation that does not require belief in supernatural -- an alternative reason he had visions and seizures, that fits with known science and medicine. Take from that what you will.



I'm sorry about that, but she has failed to provide any evidence it is anything else. It looks like a duck, quacks like a duck, and swims like a duck -- I have no reason to believe otherwise yet.

I don't mean to be offensive, and I honestly am sorry if I am, but it can't be new news to you, or her, that her visions are not proof of anything other than potential health issues.

your language gives you away, my friend.

[faye]

[QUOTE=ozymandias;660286
I'm sorry about that, but she has failed to provide any evidence it is anything else. It looks like a duck, quacks like a duck, and swims like a duck -- I have no reason to believe otherwise yet.

I don't mean to be offensive, and I honestly am sorry if I am, but it can't be new news to you, or her, that her visions are not proof of anything other than potential health issues.[/QUOTE]

all this proof demanding is a load of idiocy and you know it. stop this silliness.
how would you prove that the theory of evolution or the big bang happened, on a forum?
were you there watching the big bang happen? you have a video of evolution of humanity and the earth, as it occurred?
just like you know asking for evidence of someones personal experience of dreams, thoughts, visions, 'hallucinations, telepathy, precognitive dreams, etc.. is rubbish.
and if you don't know that, you are the one with mental health issues.

in fact i am more certain of my own experiences than you are of your scientific beliefs, because i lived them. they are my own truths and reality, not from someone elses 'citations'.


yeah right, ozy, we realise that all your little sarcasms are completely accidental and you are being misunderstood and that you are really sorry.

[ozymandias]

your language gives you away, my friend.

Was Mohammad not a man? I'm sure my language does give me away -- I have not hidden the fact that I am an atheist, logically one could easily conclude that I see no reason to treat Mohammad any differently than any other historical figure.

Again, I am not trying to be offensive here. If you are offended, I'm sorry, and I am willing to stop referring to him as a man as soon as I am provided reason to do otherwise.

[faye]

quick. now take my comment and robotically do your analysis, sentence by sentence. do not disappoint me.

[ozymandias]

all this proof demanding is a load of idiocy and you know it. stop this silliness.

Ok. Then you agree to stop trying to use your subjective experiences as proof of anything?

how would you prove that the theory of evolution or the big bang happened, on a forum?

Provide an overview of the topic, and present citations when requested for any disputed claims -- same as any other topics, really.

were you there watching the big bang happen? you have a video of evolution of humanity and the earth, as it occurred?

So you watched your intelligent creator create everything?

Double edged sword... and a silly question. Direct observation is not the only way to come to conclusions on how events unfolded.

just like you know asking for evidence of someones personal experience of dreams, thoughts, visions, 'hallucinations, telepathy, precognitive dreams, etc.. is rubbish.

No it's not. It's rubbish to pretend those things constitute evidence of anything other than the person's mental health.

and if you don't know that, you are the one with mental health issues.

I guess we agree to disagree, then.

in fact i am more certain of my own experiences than you are of your scientific beliefs, because i lived them. they are my own truths and reality, not from someone elses 'citations'.

You may wish to look into some of these scientific topics. You may be amazed at things like the placebo effect, confirmation bias, and various other topics regarding subjective experiences.

yeah right, ozy, we realise that all your little sarcasms are completely accidental and you are being misunderstood and that you are really sorry.

What sarcasms? I'm being perfectly open and blunt about this.

[faye]

very good.
you have no proof to offer, other than you want yourself and science to be the dictator of what is real and what is truth. thanks again.

[ozymandias]

quick. now take my comment and robotically do your analysis, sentence by sentence. do not disappoint me.

I would not say it's robotic, but yes, I do tend to do in-line quotes. I find it *far* easier to follow the flow of a conversation if you can see exactly what part of your post I am referring to with each comment. Experience has shown me that people online *love* to intentionally misread things and assume a comment I made in reply to one thing, was a reply to something else, and go off on a tangent.

[ozymandias]

very good.
you have no proof to offer,

Congratulations -- you made it to the 4rth word of the title of the thread!

other than you want yourself and science to be the dictator of what is real and what is truth. thanks again.

Nope. No one, and nothing is a dictator. If you can provide a better system to inspect and understand reality, I am more than willing to switch to it. Feel free to provide one.

[faye]

so you are not happy with your own system then, being so willing to jump ship.
i am completey contented with mine as it incorporates all realities. even yours.

[faye]

was there ever 'nothing'?

[ozymandias]

so you are not happy with your own system then, being so willing to jump ship.

There you go trying to deliberately twist things. First you accuse me of being dogmatic in my beliefs, and when I point out that I am not blindly dogmatic, you accuse me of being eager to jump ship. It's not that I am eager, it's that I don't believe a better system exists, but would be willing to admit to being wrong if something better did come along.

i am completey contented with mine as it incorporates all realities. even yours.

Good for you. I prefer to understand reality, rather than make up something to pretend to be reality.

[faye]

the theory of simultaneus time is interesting. i was reading how we are able to change the so called, 'past' and get information from the 'so called' future.
marvelous isn't it. ozy?

[faye]

There you go trying to deliberately twist things. First you accuse me of being dogmatic in my beliefs, and when I point out that I am not blindly dogmatic, you accuse me of being eager to jump ship. It's not that I am eager, it's that I don't believe a better system exists, but would be willing to admit to being wrong if something better did come along.
Good for you. I prefer to understand reality, rather than make up something to pretend to be reality.

lol. it's all part of my reality, even what you don't know but are willing to call, 'pretends'.
you have to keep waiting to be told what your reality is, by scientists.

see, a much better system than yours.