Ask an American, agnostic and atheist man pretty much anything

[badmash_khel]

Hi Ozymandias,

Do you believe in subjective morality and if so, how do you deistinguish right from wrong?

[ozymandias]

You doubt the credibility of the Quran (the only remaining book that has the words of God)...

I also reject the Book of Mormon, the Bible, The Gospel of the Flying Spaghetti Monster, and all other 'holy' books.

so how could you explain that every thing has come in pairs ?

I don't understand the question, or the need for a supernatural explanation. not everything comes in pairs, and even those that do can be explained simply with science -- not every species has two sexes, but those that do can be explained by noting the evolutionary advantage of higher species having a method to mix and match new genetic material, for instance.

...and the colours of the human ?

...? Is this a race question? Races are due to the differing geographical areas and conditions various cultures set up shop in. This caused the gene pools of each population to drift apart as differing conditions selected differing traits. For instance, a dark skinned person is better suited to the tropical areas than a lighter skinned one, and vise versa.

and why they have different languages?

The same sort of explanation as the skin colors. For most of history, one region did not have much to do with regions beyond a few days walk. There were little opportunity to homogenize the languages. If you never met a person from Japan, for instance, nor met anyone that met anyone that met anyone that has met someone from Japan, it would be difficult, if not impossible to keep the languages from diverging Languages change and evolve much the same as species -- isolation allows divergence.

[IamDZJ]

mister I was here first.

[Soldat_Amir]

Ozy

Some find it very difficult to understand, that most of these books were preached by man himself and not through a super natural invisible force. It was man who walked miles to spread the word, not god himself.

There is no evidence to say Angels exist, or that floods,earthquakes is a form of god's anger on the masses, all these sayings, are told by man himself. They use to say that the plague in Europe was sent down by god himself to punish the heathens, then science explained to us, it was due to a virus passed on by infected Rats.

Science does not divide people, its religion that does.

Religion is a tool for powerful people to mislead the masses and keep control of them.

Its been proven mankind has lived on this earth way longer than Jesus, Mohammad and Moses. They followed a different set of values and had their own belief systems. Why was god not sending his books then?

They say Arabic is a sacred language, how can it be sent from god, when it was developed by man himself through a long process of development through the ages.

[ozymandias]

Ozy

Some find it very difficult to understand, that most of these books were preached by man himself and not through a super natural invisible force. It was man who walked miles to spread the word, not god himself.

There is no evidence to say Angels exist, or that floods,earthquakes is a form of god's anger on the masses, all these sayings, are told by man himself. They use to say that the plague in Europe was sent down by god himself to punish the heathens, then science explained to us, it was due to a virus passed on by infected Rats.

Science does not divide people, its religion that does.

Religion is a tool for powerful people to mislead the masses and keep control of them.

Its been proven mankind has lived on this earth way longer than Jesus, Mohammad and Moses. They followed a different set of values and had their own belief systems. Why was god not sending his books then?

They say Arabic is a sacred language, how can it be sent from god, when it was developed by man himself through a long process of development through the ages.

Well said!

[Al Hanif]

Ozy

Some find it very difficult to understand, that most of these books were preached by man himself and not through a super natural invisible force. It was man who walked miles to spread the word, not god himself.

There is no evidence to say Angels exist, or that floods,earthquakes is a form of god's anger on the masses, all these sayings, are told by man himself. They use to say that the plague in Europe was sent down by god himself to punish the heathens, then science explained to us, it was due to a virus passed on by infected Rats.

Science does not divide people, its religion that does.

Religion is a tool for powerful people to mislead the masses and keep control of them.

Its been proven mankind has lived on this earth way longer than Jesus, Mohammad and Moses. They followed a different set of values and had their own belief systems. Why was god not sending his books then?

They say Arabic is a sacred language, how can it be sent from god, when it was developed by man himself through a long process of development through the ages.

I've read what you've written, I've perfectly understood it yet I disagree.

You see the glass half empty, I see it half full.

Atheism is a religious position. Atheism is based on belief, not scientific evidence. There is no scientific evidence that Angels exists, but neither is there proof that angels doesn't exist. Therefore, atheists simply BELIEVE that there is no angels and belief without basis of evidence is what most of us would call faith. Thus, making atheism a religious position. "I believe there are no angels." vs. "I believe there are angels." If you want to base your religious position on science... well, you can't. That's not the way religion works.

Even science is based of faith.

Faith of the uniformity of nature.

God punished the heathens, the same way he's punishing the faggots with AIDS. Why are all people who have AIDS faggots and fornicators ? It's because God punished them.

Arabic is not a sacred language, it's the language of the revelation.

[badmash_khel]

Science has nothing to do with faith.

Faith can neither be proven nor disproven by science. I think everyone agreed on that simple fact?

Science has to do with pysical universe and everything inside it. God as described by muslims and other faiths is not bound by universal laws. You can't put God under a microscope and do experiment on him in a lab.

You either believe or don't beleieve. simple as that.

[ozymandias]

I've read what you've written, I've perfectly understood it yet I disagree.

You see the glass half empty, I see it half full.

Atheism is a religious position.

False. Atheism is neither the belief in, nor worship of supernatural entities.

Atheism is based on belief, not scientific evidence.

False. That's all it is -- science.

There is no scientific evidence that Angels exists, but neither is there proof that angels doesn't exist. Therefore, atheists simply BELIEVE that there is no angels and belief without basis of evidence is what most of us would call faith.

No, atheists recognize there is no evidence for angels or rational, logical reason to believe. There is a huge difference.

Thus, making atheism a religious position. "I believe there are no angels." vs. "I believe there are angels."

False dichotomy. Atheists can, (and most do) simply believe there is no evidence for angels.

If you want to base your religious position on science... well, you can't. That's not the way religion works.

Exactly.

Even science is based of faith.

False. It is not simply faith if you can reproduce any and all experiments yourself. You are comparing trust in the accuracy of experiments I can reproduce to the faith one holds in an ancient holy book. You are using two different definitions of faith, and deliberately mangling them.

Faith of the uniformity of nature.

God punished the heathens, the same way he's punishing the faggots with AIDS. Why are all people who have AIDS faggots and fornicators ? It's because God punished them.

Actually, it's because you fail to acknowledge the cases that do not fit your definition.

Arabic is not a sacred language, it's the language of the revelation.

[Soldat_Amir]

Science has nothing to do with faith.

Faith can neither be proven nor disproven by science. I think everyone agreed on that simple fact?

Science has to do with pysical universe and everything inside it. God as described by muslims and other faiths is not bound by universal laws. You can't put God under a microscope and do experiment on him in a lab.

You either believe or don't beleieve. simple as that.

Science contracits Faith.

Its not about being free to believe or not, its when Religonous people claim their faith is proven fact and science is all lies.

Thats where the problem lies.

The reason why Muslims,Jews and Christians say that God is invisible, cant be seen, cant breed, cant come in physical form is because he is made up in their imagination and they have no evidence that he can be proven to exist.

Mankind has lived for centuries, thousands of years, without any god. Mankind has adapted to survive, find ways to feed themselves, cure illnesses, without any instruction from god himself.

If you want to associate religion with moral values, then fair enough, religion has played a positive role in morals, however, religion has also played a major role in death and destruction in converting others to the faith for which Islam and Christianity is famed for throughout the ages.

[Al Hanif]

False. Atheism is neither the belief in, nor worship of supernatural entities.

Define 'worshipping'.

According to Islam you are worshipping your own desires if you are an atheist.

False. That's all it is -- science.

False. Religion and atheism both defy the scientific method. Both START with a pre-conceived notion (existence or non-existance of God), then go about trying why that notion is correct. I wouldn't "associate" science with religion or atheism. If anything, true, unbiased science is agnostic by default. It has to be in order to preserve its integrity. So it's a matter of personal choice and responsibility whether or not you believe or disbelieve in God. There ultimately can't and won't be any answers in science about religion. Sorry...

No, atheists recognize there is no evidence for angels or rational, logical reason to believe. There is a huge difference.

No, atheists say that since there is no evidence for angels or rational, logical reason to believe, that means that they don't exist. Which is a pure fallacy.

False dichotomy. Atheists can, (and most do) simply believe there is no evidence for angels.

You said it. They BELIEVE !!!!11!111

False. It is not simply faith if you can reproduce any and all experiments yourself. You are comparing trust in the accuracy of experiments I can reproduce to the faith one holds in an ancient holy book. You are using two different definitions of faith, and deliberately mangling them.

There is only one definition of faith and the scientific method is based on the faith of uniformity of nature. Objectively, I fail to see why an african who believes in some spirits in the tree would be less trustworthy than you who blindly believe in the uniformity of nature.

[Al Hanif]

400 get

[badmash_khel]

Science contracits Faith.

Its not about being free to believe or not, its when Religonous people claim their faith is proven fact and science is all lies.

Thats where the problem lies.

Then those religious people who claim such things are ignorant simply don't know what faith is. They should look into the definition of what faith is. If everything was black and white and simple for all to see then there is no point of faith.

The reason why Muslims,Jews and Christians say that God is invisible, cant be seen, cant breed, cant come in physical form is because he is made up in their imagination and they have no evidence that he can be proven to exist.

You are right God can't be proven to exist just as he can't be proven to not exist simply because of the definition of God as being formelss, timeless, and so on. I will give you a famous phylosophical question. "If there a tree falls in a forest and there is nobody there, does the tree make a noise when falling down or not?". See when you say he is the product of our imagination than how do you explain reality? how do you explain us humans, where we came from, what is our purpose and so on? Scientific law dictates that nothing can come from nothing, so where did we come from?
Your thinking along the lines of that famous german philosopher friedrich nietzsche, who said something along the lines of "God is the figment of humans imagination and he is the sum of all the good values that humans aspire to", Thats not the exact quote but he says something along those lines. Even if we accept your view, still it leaves more questions un answered.

Mankind has lived for centuries, thousands of years, without any god. Mankind has adapted to survive, find ways to feed themselves, cure illnesses, without any instruction from god himself.

If you want to associate religion with moral values, then fair enough, religion has played a positive role in morals, however, religion has also played a major role in death and destruction in converting others to the faith for which Islam and Christianity is famed for throughout the ages.

If you don't believe in god then you don't believe in a source for morality. all your morals are subjective and sometimes they are just cultural practices. there is no right and wrong or good and evil when you take God out of the equation. Everyone is right and everyone is wrong. Who is one human to judge another?

Religion can be a source of great comfort for people who are poor and destitute. prayer is a powerful phsycological tool. Faith gives people hope in desperate situations.

Religion and faith is not all bad as some put it. Even if you look at it from athiestic point of view.
The claim that religion stops or derails human progress is stupid. There have been countless religous people who have been phylosopher, scientists and so on. Religion doesn't make you smart or dumb. Neither does atheism make you smart or dumb.
l

[Soldat_Amir]

Define 'worshipping'.

According to Islam you are worshipping your own desires if you are an atheist.




False. Religion and science both defy the scientific method. Both START with a pre-conceived notion (existence or non-existance of God), then go about trying why that notion is correct. I wouldn't "associate" science with religion or atheism. If anything, true, unbiased science is agnostic by default. It has to be in order to preserve its integrity. So it's a matter of personal choice and responsibility whether or not you believe or disbelieve in God. There ultimately can't and won't be any answers in science about religion. Sorry...





No, atheists say that since there is no evidence for angels or rational, logical reason to believe, that means that they don't exist. Which is a pure fallacy.





You said it. They BELIEVE !!!!11!111




There is only one definition of faith and the scientific method is based on the faith of uniformity of nature. Objectively, I fail to see why an african who believes in some spirits in the tree would be less trustworthy than you who blindly believe in the uniformity of nature.

Al hanif, your saying those who reject that angels exist as mere fallacy?

The only evidence of angels is written books by people, or fairy tale stories by children book authors.

Angels, ghosts are just mere folklore, supertitious and unreliable.

If one vists a mental health ward, you can find many people there who claim to see the future, read your mind and claim to be touched by angels and ghosts, but its proven, its just a drugs talking.

Your mind works in different ways and at times can lead you abit to far away from reality.

Take the case of a man from South Korea, who walked into a lion cage, he stated Jesus would save him but that didnt happen, the zoo keepers had to save him from being mauled by the Lion.

What about psychotic illnesses, what makes you think people during those times, never suffered from it, but considered what they said of ultimate truth?

God never advised mankind on how to survive. God never found the cure many illnesses, it was mankind who did it, mankind is the one who developed anti biotics, vaccines against snake venom, through trials and failures.

[Soldat_Amir]

Then those religious people who claim such things are ignorant simply don't know what faith is. They should look into the definition of what faith is. If everything was black and white and simple for all to see then there is no point of faith.



You are right God can't be proven to exist just as he can't be proven to not exist simply because of the definition of God as being formelss, timeless, and so on. I will give you a famous phylosophical question. "If there a tree falls in a forest and there is nobody there, does the tree make a noise when falling down or not?". See when you say he is the product of our imagination than how do you explain reality? how do you explain us humans, where we came from, what is our purpose and so on? Scientific law dictates that nothing can come from nothing, so where did we come from?
Your thinking along the lines of that famous german philosopher friedrich nietzsche, who said something along the lines of "God is the figment of humans imagination and he is the sum of all the good values that humans aspire to", Thats not the exact quote but he says something along those lines. Even if we accept your view, still it leaves more questions un answered.






If you don't believe in god then you don't believe in a source for morality. all your morals are subjective and sometimes they are just cultural practices. there is no right and wrong or good and evil when you take God out of the equation. Everyone is right and everyone is wrong. Who is one human to judge another?

Religion can be a source of great comfort for people who are poor and destitute. prayer is a powerful phsycological tool. Faith gives people hope in desperate situations.

Religion and faith is not all bad as some put it. Even if you look at it from athiestic point of view.
The claim that religion stops or derails human progress is stupid. There have been countless religous people who have been phylosopher, scientists and so on. Religion doesn't make you smart or dumb. Neither does atheism make you smart or dumb.
l

Morality changes with time. Would you accept applying a tax on Jews and Christians who live in your country? because Sharia does state they should be applied as they are dhimmis? I am sure you would oppose that, as its against your morals.

Would you sit there and enjoy seeing a women lashed in public for being uncovered? no you wouldnt, as its against your morality. Morality changes with time and so do people.

What about modern day slavery? would you be comfortable having a slave in your house, as many Islamic states in the past allowed this practiced, from the Arab Khalifs to the Ottomons?

What about Harems? and the being permitted to keep women as war booty? Would you morally accept that.

You wouldnt, thats why I personally feel Religion best suited its time, and now we are in the modern era, where possible a more reformed religion would be needed but limited.

Of course religion derails progression, take the case of Christianity, the priests use to beleive the earth is flat, they persectuted people who opposed this, then it turned out the world is round and they were wrong.

Take the case of people hearing voices in their head, they use to say, its the devil speaking, then we found out its a mental illness, associated with psychosis in a way.

I agree, religion can play a good part, if its reformed for this day and age. Sadly, the Muslim world is far from it, and only got to visit Muslim countries to see it, take the example of Pakistan, where people are protesting to kill a Christian women for insulting the Prophet without any evidence. Now how can you progress, when you have people like that.

On a different note, I am not saying we should leave religion aside, I am not interested in converting Pashtuns into my set of beliefs, Personally, I am more concerned on other issues such as

1) how to develop a strong irrigation system in Kandahar to prevent from becoming a desert.
2) how to increase the number of male and female Pashtuns to be able to read and write.
3) work to develop the infrastucuture of the Pashtun hewad.

Thanks.

[Soldat_Amir]

Badmash_khel

before I leave this thread alone, you may wonder what my faith is or what I follow, I will explain in a very short sentence as follows:-

Educating and helping my Pashtun people is my Religion/faith, seeing a strong Afghanistan is my Paradise.