Ask an American, agnostic and atheist man pretty much anything

[ozymandias]

why, do you think, is the usa in afghanistan?

Bad politics by a more than slightly dishonest president. the USA was lead to believe that Afghanistan was harboring agents of the terrorist organization that orchestrated the 9-11 attacks, and the US quickly became mired down in a conflict with no politically expedient way to leave. It's very difficult to pull out now, especially considering we have angered many people. Politically speaking (but not ethically or morally) it is better to stick it out until we reach some sort of milestone to justify pulling out.

also why did you came to this forum out of all other forums where mulims are present.

jst curios

I was requested by a member of this board based on my postings on another, undisclosed, forum -- and I found that I very much enjoyed the conversations I had here. There are some very well educated and entertaining people, and I felt there is much I can learn and much I can teach. Attempting to understand the opposing viewpoints on this board are very.... illuminating, and can be a nice counter balance to the bias the media presents over here. It is nice to find the people that break every stereotype of Muslims that many here would have you believe -- and to be honest, it is actually nice to see those that conform to the stereotype, too. At least that means that the bias in the media is based on some fact, and not made up whole cloth.

[ozymandias]

Staff Message:

Keep discussions civil and orderly. The forum staff reserves the right to remove flaming posts and images that breach forum rules and common sensibilities even where used as a quote.

Public apology for reposting an inappropriate image in a quote.

[Al Hanif]

I do not think you have any desire to have a rational, or civil discussion. Your approach to this is the equivalent of my posting pictures of Mohammad's head on a dog or pigs body -- it is deliberately antagonistic and a dead-end to discussion. Please carry on -- the only thing your exercise of free speech has done is make you look bad.

I thought you were for freedom of speech ? Or only when it suits you ? Now you know what it's like to be a muslim in the west. Freedom of speech can go to hell.

I don't hate you but I hate your country and all what it stands for. Also, I kindly invite you to embrace Islam because either way, you will burn in hell. I am not the kind of man who beats around the bush. I know you don't believe in hell since you're an atheist. But since I do, I thought it would be nice to warn you before it is too late. Just an advice of mine. Enjoy your stay.

[ozymandias]

I thought you were for freedom of speech ?

I am. Please note, I did not ask you to stop, I simply stated an example that was supposed to help you understand what you were doing.

Or only when it suits you ? Now you know what it's like to be a muslim in the west.

I am afraid I still do not. I was offended -- but I do not have the right *not* to be offended. Instead of taking up arms against what you said, I can, and will take up arms to defend your right to say this. It may offend me -- but it makes you look like a petty, juvenile fool.

Freedom of speech can go to hell.

I disagree with what you say, but will defend to the death your right to say it.

I don't hate you but I hate your country and all what it stands for.

Clearly you do not understand what my country stands for -- because I am what it stands for -- a government of the people, for the people. It is not free from mistakes, but it does have noble goals.

Also, I kindly invite you to embrace Islam because either way, you will burn in hell.

I disagree. I invite you to maintain that belief, but continue this discourse and attempt to at least understand my opinion -- even if you do not agree with it. That said, I could not embrace Islam any more than I could embrace any religion. I am simply not convinced of the 'evidence' for religion, and can no more choose to believe in religion, than I can choose to disbelieve in gravity. My belief is by no means a matter of choice.

I am not the kind of man who beats around the bush. I know you don't believe in hell since you're an atheist. But since I do, I thought it would be nice to warn you before it is too late. Just an advice of mine. Enjoy your stay.

Being threatened with hell is no different than having a hippy threaten to punch me in my aura. You are right -- it means nothing to me, as I have never seen convincing evidence for it -- and believe me, many have tried to find it.

[Al Hanif]

I am. Please note, I did not ask you to stop, I simply stated an example that was supposed to help you understand what you were doing.

So I can go on ?

I am afraid I still do not. I was offended -- but I do not have the right *not* to be offended. Instead of taking up arms against what you said, I can, and will take up arms to defend your right to say this. It may offend me -- but it makes you look like a petty, juvenile fool.

I disagree with what you say, but will defend to the death your right to say it.

VOLTAIRE.

Way to regurgitate something you read. Original thought is overrated, right ?

Clearly you do not understand what my country stands for -- because I am what it stands for -- a government of the people, for the people. It is not free from mistakes, but it does have noble goals.

No it does not. Your system is corrupted. You have man-made laws. Richs are becoming richer, poors are becoming poorer and your government is waging wars in the globe every decade. It's goals are its survival and the decadence of society.

I disagree. I invite you to maintain that belief, but continue this discourse and attempt to at least understand my opinion -- even if you do not agree with it. That said, I could not embrace Islam any more than I could embrace any religion. I am simply not convinced of the 'evidence' for religion, and can no more choose to believe in religion, than I can choose to disbelieve in gravity. My belief is by no means a matter of choice.

Your brain is soiled by western man-made concepts. You are lost.

Being threatened with hell is no different than having a hippy threaten to punch me in my aura. You are right -- it means nothing to me, as I have never seen convincing evidence for it -- and believe me, many have tried to find it.

You do not even exist. There is no evidence for it. Cogito ergo sum. The only thing I am sure of is that I exist and God exists because I did not created myself.

So since I'm not sure you exist, I have no reason to waste my time. To you your religion and to me my religion.

[ScimitarXEdge]

It takes a true scholar to know the difference.

I grew up reading Lovecraft books and related Cthulhu Mythos literature

[ozymandias]

So I can go on ?

I have no reason to stop you. Personally, I think it is better if you do express these opinions -- then we can discuss them, and if you continue to do so in a juvenile manner, you only make the case against you *for me*. Free speech is a double edged sword. You can enact changes and express your opinion -- and you can also make yourself look foolish.

VOLTAIRE.

Way to regurgitate something you read. Original thought is overrated, right ?

Again, I disagree. I used a quote, because it is a very poetic, and succinct phrasing to share a belief I truly have.

No it does not. Your system is corrupted. You have man-made laws.

I can say the same about any countries laws.

Richs are becoming richer, poors are becoming poorer and your government is waging wars in the globe every decade. It's goals are its survival and the decadence of society.

Indeed -- but I have yet to see a better system than democracy, with an educated populous to run a far country. Sure the US has flaws, but it is far better than many of the alternatives -- and it includes a system to refocus the country peacefully and regain the original goals.

Your brain is soiled by western man-made concepts. You are lost.

Care to elaborate? What concepts am I soiled with? The concept of human rights? The equality of the genders? What have I stated so far as a personal belief that is 'soiled' -- and why do you think so?

You do not even exist. There is no evidence for it. Cogito ergo sum.

Now look who is quoting?

The only thing I am sure of is that I exist and God exists because I did not created myself.

And misquoting at that. Cogito ergo sum -- I think, therefore I am. There is no implication of a cause, or causer in that statement. In fact, this only implies that your mind exists, and even then the jump from the premise 'I think' to the conclusion ' I exist' is flawed, because it assumes all that thinks, exists, so this is not a complete proof. Additionally the jump to the supernatural is unneeded. A more accurate statement would be "I exist, and therefore my parents exist". To jump to a god existing is to cut out a great number of middle steps, similar to the argument "I have a cat, therefor I am wealthy" -- while this *may* be true, the simple fact of having a cat (or existing) would not necessitate the conclusion of being rich (or a god existing).

So since I'm not sure you exist, I have no reason to waste my time. To you your religion and to me my religion.

Indeed, I am not sure *you* exist. Given your posting history in this thread, you are far more likely a troll, given the deliberately inflammatory and insulting comments and illogic used. It seems far more likely that you are a fictitious persona played on the internet as some sort of game than a legitimate portrayal of a real person.

That said, you are mistaken -- I have not religion. To you, your religion, to me, no religion. Farewell, if you must go. Troll or not, it has been entertaining and enlightening.

[ozymandias]

I grew up reading Lovecraft books and related Cthulhu Mythos literature

At the Mountains of Madness and Pickman's Model are my two favorite stories -- I still remember curling up with a collection of short stories on a cold, snowy winter's night as a child and running across Pickman's Model in a midst the drivel of the other stories.

[ScimitarXEdge]

At the Mountains of Madness and Pickman's Model are my two favorite stories -- I still remember curling up with a collection of short stories on a cold, snowy winter's night as a child and running across Pickman's Model in a midst the drivel of the other stories.

At The Mountains of Madness, The Call of Cthulhu and The Dunwich Horror are mine

I've always liked the whole "unspeakable cosmic horror" theme

[ozymandias]

At The Mountains of Madness, The Call of Cthulhu and The Dunwich Horror are mine

I've always liked the whole "unspeakable cosmic horror" theme

If there is enough interest, we can spin off a new thread and do a "book club" type thing. It's always interesting to see other viewpoints on the same writing.

[ScimitarXEdge]

If there is enough interest, we can spin off a new thread and do a "book club" type thing. It's always interesting to see other viewpoints on the same writing.

sounds great, I look forward to it.

[Shayesta]

@Ozy
Long time no see, welcome back to the forum.

And I know that you don't want to answer questions regarding your nationality, but I still want to know where you are originally from, if you don't mind?

[Admin Khan]

Greetings Ozymandias Khan,
Welcome back. I remember you were one of our very first members here, and we had conversed previously. I certainly remember that you were one of the few with whom many enjoyed sharpening their intellectual swords with. If I recall correctly, you and Akbar Khan had a very amazing debate.

My question:
Wouldn't you agree that it's better to believe in a God, as opposed to rejecting him and finding out that he did indeed exist? Cost-benefit analysis at it's best, no? Why?

I look forward to your response.

[ozymandias]

@Ozy
Long time no see, welcome back to the forum.

And I know that you don't want to answer questions regarding your nationality, but I still want to know where you are originally from, if you don't mind?

Thanks for the welcome back -- it's nice to be remembered ;-)

Nationality, I have no problem with -- I am American, born here, and grew up here. I choose not to narrow it down farther than that, based on the reactions of a few hot-heads when I last posted here. I mean absolutely no disrespect, and understand that the vast majority of you are decent, peaceful people -- but international events being what they are, and the reactions of other Islamic hot-heads, I hope you can understand by desire for secrecy.

[ozymandias]

Greetings Ozymandias Khan,
Welcome back. I remember you were one of our very first members here, and we had conversed previously. I certainly remember that you were one of the few with whom many enjoyed sharpening their intellectual swords with. If I recall correctly, you and Akbar Khan had a very amazing debate.

Indeed, we did ;-)

My question:
Wouldn't you agree that it's better to believe in a God, as opposed to rejecting him and finding out that he did indeed exist? Cost-benefit analysis at it's best, no? Why?

I look forward to your response.

This argument is called "Pascal's Wager", and it is a very old gem. At first glance, it is indeed a fairly convincing argument -- but upon investigation it does not hold up. Let me illuminate a few of the flaws:

1) Which God? According to most sects and denominations, believing in the wrong one at best, does no good, at worst, angers god. Would you not agree that many Muslims would agree that Allah would be angered if one were to reject him for the Jewish version (called Yahweh, for simplicity), and most Christians would agree. To add to the matters, Baptists would say god would be angered if one were to be a Catholic, and vice versa. How are you to select which version of God, Allah, or Yahweh to believe in?

2) What about the 'other' gods? Odin? Zeus? Osiris? Etc.

3) You assume belief is a matter of choice. I disagree, as would most psychologists and philosophers. Belief is a result of a person being exposed to a convincing level of evidence, not a matter of conscious choice. Could you realistically *choose* not to believe in gravity? Or choose to believe that the sun will not come up tomorrow? Remember, you are not answering just me -- you would have to convince an all knowing, all powerful being of your belief. Any doubt at all would be known to them.

4) Pascal's Wager, even if not flawed as already mention, still would not be *proof* of a god's existence. Look at another example: you cannot win the lottery if you don't play, so thus, would it not be best to spend your entire income on tickets? Clearly it would be best for you to win the lottery, as opposed to not winning, right?

5) Even if a god did exist, would it not be possible that he would be upset that we reject the gifts of rationality, reason, logic, intelligence, and scientific endeavors that he granted us, in return for blind obedience? What kind of loving parent would want their kids to be underachievers?

To put it into a lighthearted image that has been making the rounds on the internet lately:


Best of wishes to you and yours -- I am looking forward to continuing this conversation.