Questions on islam, sharia , islamic legal , political etc systems, culture , society

[Badlun]

Sangar or any friend may please reply to the following questions regarding Islam and Sharia with the spirit of learning and sharing.

1. Whats your concept of Sharia?

2. How can you prove that Islam is a complete system and a complete way of life and its not only a religion?

3. Can you show that except the few initial years of islam, it ever remained a successful political and economic system implemented by any state or government?

4. Whats the concept of human rights in Islam? Dont you think that islam contradicts many universally declared human rights like equality of man and woman , the death penalty for apostates, the right to change the religion, Muslim Apartheid of religious isolation and gender segregation, nferior status of women in Muslim countries and the nonexistence of maternal rights to children , Violence towards critics of Islam etc

5. How can you explain and justify the evidence system of sharia, equality of two women to one man as witnesses, provision of four witnesses by a a poor woman who is sexually violated, the absence of punishment for rape or sex with minor age or homosexuals sex without consent, inheritance of two women equal to one man, polygamy and the harsh punishments like stoning to death and cutting of hands?

6. Hadith are drawn from the writings of scholars writing between 844 and 874 CE, more than 200 years after the death of Mohammed in 632. How each and every hadith in the sihahe sita is authentic and must be followed in letter and spirit?

7. Dont you think that violence is implicit in the Qur'anic text if not interpreted contextually and metaphorically and in the light of modern day realities , and that Islamic groups like Ahle Hadith, Taliban Wahabis, Salafis etc promote terrorism in the world?

8 What do you think about the destruction of art by Taliban? Do you agree that Extremist Islam has negative attitude towards depictions of people in art and this antagonism towards the representation of the human figure has resulted in the destruction of the Buddhas of bamyan , the nose of the Great Sphinx of Giza and mosaics in the Hagia Sophia. What do you think of music , photography and dance and other fine arts.

9. What do you think of Pashtunwali? Do you think its allowed to practise Pashtunwali or Pashtuns must adopt the so called Islamic or Arab culture and social norms?

10. Why are you against democracy , secularism and human rights as interpreted in the west and the developed world?

Enough for the time being............

[شمله ور خراساني]

Osho, don't get ahead of yourself. We have not yet discussed democracy on the other thread. This is not a casino where you can spread your chips across the table to increase your chances and luck. Let's finish the Democracy and Secularism discussion. Afterwards, I will take some time to answer your questions regarding Islam and Shari'ah.

I think Pashtunwali is an important part of our culture and identity that we should not let go of.


I'll let Sangar answer the rest.

Nazia, I assume you are a woman. If you like Pashtunwali, then you also like the fact that in Pashtunwali a conflict can be solved by bartering a woman to settle a conflict. You are okay with being used as a bargain chip?

Because of this type of sick and disgusting aspects of Pashtunwali, I would never ever want Pashtunwali to become the law of the land.

[Badlun]

Please attack, the Argument not the one who makes the Argument. I am not writing here to increase my chance or luck. No body will give me an award for what I am writing here. This is all with learning and sharing spirit.

I am waiting for your comments on my posts on democracy. We can further discuss it there. Here we can also participate simultaneously. As you participate in many threads at the same time, the same we can do here too. We ll discuss democracy there and Sharia here.

And please note that pashtunwali is my culture, my social norms and I am proud of it. There are few pitfalls and bad practices in Pashtunwali like SWARA and treatment of women but it can be reformed. Just for few bad things we cant reject the whole institution of Pashtunwali. On the reformation of Pashtunwali we can have a separate topic.

[inqilab]

1. Whats your concept of Sharia?

We do not have our own personal concept. No one knows about shariah except from Islam. Shariah in language means a path way that leads to the main a water source. Since water is an element of life. Shariah is the well-being of a person. It is done by following Islam.

2. How can you prove that Islam is a complete system and a complete way of life and its not only a religion?

You go to the source itself - Quran and Prophetic tradition. Both of them speak very explicitly. And do not only relate to asceticism. It speaks about governing in all aspects.

3. Can you show that except the few initial years of islam, it ever remained a successful political and economic system implemented by any state or government?

Just read Islamic history itself. From the beginning. No ideology was ever adopted like Islam was.

4. Whats the concept of human rights in Islam? Dont you think that islam contradicts many universally declared human rights like equality of man and woman , the death penalty for apostates, the right to change the religion, Muslim Apartheid of religious isolation and gender segregation, nferior status of women in Muslim countries and the nonexistence of maternal rights to children , Violence towards critics of Islam etc

Islam protects a persons life property and honor. Only our creator can tell us how to live. Since the creator created us. And knows what is best for us. Another human being cannot do that. Not even a childs mother.

5. How can you explain and justify the evidence system of sharia, equality of two women to one man as witnesses, provision of four witnesses by a a poor woman who is sexually violated, the absence of punishment for rape or sex with minor age or homosexuals sex without consent, inheritance of two women equal to one man, polygamy and the harsh punishments like stoning to death and cutting of hands?

First there is nothing to justify. Since justification intends that we have to prove it to be right. Islam is right. No matter if we accept it or not. It is right and it is us who have to justify things. Not Islam. Islam does not have to answer to anyone. We judge things to be right or wrong based upon Islam. I hope that is clear.

The rest are your misconceptions. Please provide evidence where Islam says all that. Most of it is not true.

The two women for one man. Is speaking about having witnesses for a business contract. If one cannot find two men. Then one man and two women are fine. And two women are needed. Just in case if one of the women errors the other one can remind her. And this is only in one verse. There are 5 verses that mention witnesses. And none specify male or female.

if a man falsely accuses a chaste woman of fornication. He must bring 4 male witnesses to prove it. And if they cannot do that. They will be lashed 80 times. And their testimony rejected.

6. Hadith are drawn from the writings of scholars writing between 844 and 874 CE, more than 200 years after the death of Mohammed in 632. How each and every hadith in the sihahe sita is authentic and must be followed in letter and spirit?

You are very wrong. This is exactly what christian missionaries claim. There is clear evidence that some of the companions of Allahs Messenger had their own collections. hadith are an oral tradition. There is a lecture by Dr Jonathan Brown. Who is a western hadith scholar and a professor at University of Washington. He has refuted all of this. And gives evidence of authenticity. It is called "a brief history of hadith collection and criticism"

7. Dont you think that violence is implicit in the Qur'anic text if not interpreted contextually and metaphorically and in the light of modern day realities , and that Islamic groups like Ahle Hadith, Taliban Wahabis, Salafis etc promote terrorism in the world?

Terrorism is when a superpower. Like the US. Globalizes world economies and tries to impose their form of politics. Quran lays down strict rules of war. Humanistic rules. While modern day realities do not. Their only concern is maximizing profits by any means. So this is true terrorism.

8 What do you think about the destruction of art by Taliban? Do you agree that Extremist Islam has negative attitude towards depictions of people in art and this antagonism towards the representation of the human figure has resulted in the destruction of the Buddhas of bamyan , the nose of the Great Sphinx of Giza and mosaics in the Hagia Sophia. What do you think of music , photography and dance and other fine arts.

We do not recognize any forms of idolatry. And we do not recognize any pathways that will lead to idolatry. Why cry over spilled milk. These are all anti-social elements which are immoral.

9. What do you think of Pashtunwali? Do you think its allowed to practise Pashtunwali or Pashtuns must adopt the so called Islamic or Arab culture and social norms?

Islam is not against other cultures. As long as the cultural practices are not shameless.

10. Why are you against democracy , secularism and human rights as interpreted in the west and the developed world?

Enough for the time being............

They are all hypocrisy and oppressive. Man made systems are only for self-perversion. Islam is a system from the Creator.


Just some quick answers.

[Roshina]

@ MilitantMullah, have you read anything on the Shariah and what EXACTLY it is? Because ... believe it or not, there are things in Shariah that are NOT found in the Quran OR sunnah. Examples include the process of divorce (for women) and child custody.
I'm looking into many more at the moment, so I'll show you more as this thread progresses, ka khairee.

But I was just wondering if you've actually read anything ON the Shariah OR if you've read any full hadith book at all ... say, the Sahih of Bukhari or Muslim. I also wonder if you've studied crime punishment in Islam (the Quran, hadiths, and commentaries of classical scholars of Islam) or not. That would be worth a read. I'd be happy to recommend some books and articles to you if you need me to.

P.S. How do you define "shameless," since, according to you, Islam is not against ANY culture except when the culture is "shameless"? While I'm at it, lemme also ask ... how do you define "morality"? What's so immoral about idolatry, since you just said that idolatry is an anti-social element, which is immoral? Oh, and what is "anti-social" about idolatry?...

If your answer is, "Islam defines shameless/morality/idolatry as ...," I'm going to have to request in advance a source for your answer. Dera manana!

[Badlun]

Inqilab
Your answers are very suoerficial and as you said quick! I dont know what sangar or another friend has to say on the above 10 questions and on the remarks of Qrratugai.
Also I dare to write two more questions

11. What exactly you think of Taliban and Al Qaida? Do you think what they are doing is all right. Where they are wrong where right?

12. Do you think that the governments in Saudi Arabia and other Arab countries are islamic or what?

[imb706]

I liked those buddhist statues. Too bad they are gone now.

[شمله ور خراساني]

Inqilab
Your answers are very suoerficial and as you said quick! I dont know what sangar or another friend has to say on the above 10 questions and on the remarks of Qrratugai.
Also I dare to write two more questions

11. What exactly you think of Taliban and Al Qaida? Do you think what they are doing is all right. Where they are wrong where right?

12. Do you think that the governments in Saudi Arabia and other Arab countries are islamic or what?

You made yourself look silly in the thread where I wanted to discuss democracy with you.

I suppose you clean up your act and post a decent reply to my post on that thread before you embark on another adventure.

Your emotional outburst there where you accused me of being brainwashed and what not only underlines your weakness.

For someone who claims to have an executive position in a multi national with three typists workin for you, you do tend to loose your temper rather quickly over a simple discussion.

So hurry up and go re-read my post and reply in a decent mature and civilized manner before we carry on our discussion there.

We are not finished democracy yet.

[Badlun]

Sangar
I cordially request you once again to please ignore the person and his/her personal life and concentrate on what he or she says. Analyze and criticize the words not the person. We have nothing to do with each other in a personal way. We are here to discuss ideas and thats all. You have nothing to do that I am on an executive post or not . I have typists or not. Just share and participate if not learn. Dont be personal in impersonal matters.

I very seldom take the name of a person and talk to him or her. We should make it the rule here that no body will call no one. Just quote or refer to the post andcriticize it or analyze it or appreciate it or whatever.

I am replying to all your posts in the other section whenever I have time and the same I expect from you here. Both the topics have their respective significance.

[شمله ور خراساني]

Sangar
I cordially request you once again to please ignore the person and his/her personal life and concentrate on what he or she says. Analyze and criticize the words not the person. We have nothing to do with each other in a personal way. We are here to discuss ideas and thats all. You have nothing to do that I am on an executive post or not . I have typists or not. Just share and participate if not learn. Dont be personal in impersonal matters.

I very seldom take the name of a person and talk to him or her. We should make it the rule here that no body will call no one. Just quote or refer to the post andcriticize it or analyze it or appreciate it or whatever.

I am replying to all your posts in the other section whenever I have time and the same I expect from you here. Both the topics have their respective significance.

Well, you started about your personal life. I never discussed your personal life. I don't even know you.

And practice what you preach. Don't go around telling people they are brainwashed etc just because they oppose your views and statements.

[MeemWawMeemNoon]

1. Whats your concept of Sharia?

Which aspect of Shariah do you wish to discuss?

2. How can you prove that Islam is a complete system and a complete way of life and its not only a religion?

It dictates every aspect of ones life from going to the bathroom to consorting with your spouse to your interaction in society to how you should await death every moment.

3. Can you show that except the few initial years of islam, it ever remained a successful political and economic system implemented by any state or government?

Unfortunately no, however, that is not because of Islam's inability, that is because of the corruption that overtook Islamic states. They forgot their priorities.

4. Whats the concept of human rights in Islam? Dont you think that islam contradicts many universally declared human rights like equality of man and woman , the death penalty for apostates, the right to change the religion, Muslim Apartheid of religious isolation and gender segregation, nferior status of women in Muslim countries and the nonexistence of maternal rights to children , Violence towards critics of Islam etc

If you look at the UN Charter of Human Rights you would be astonished to see that Islam had implemented them over 1430 years ago.

5. How can you explain and justify the evidence system of sharia, equality of two women to one man as witnesses, provision of four witnesses by a a poor woman who is sexually violated, the absence of punishment for rape or sex with minor age or homosexuals sex without consent, inheritance of two women equal to one man, polygamy and the harsh punishments like stoning to death and cutting of hands?

Are you sure all of your accusations here is based on Islamic Shariah, or is it your observations of present day so-called Muslim states?

6. Hadith are drawn from the writings of scholars writing between 844 and 874 CE, more than 200 years after the death of Mohammed in 632. How each and every hadith in the sihahe sita is authentic and must be followed in letter and spirit?

Where did you get this info from? You are ill informed.

7. Dont you think that violence is implicit in the Qur'anic text if not interpreted contextually and metaphorically and in the light of modern day realities , and that Islamic groups like Ahle Hadith, Taliban Wahabis, Salafis etc promote terrorism in the world?

It is not implicit, these groups which you have mentions are picking and choosing what they wish from this Holy Quran to suit their political agendas. Islam does not condone violence. Self-defense and the protection of freedom of conscience is a different issue.

8 What do you think about the destruction of art by Taliban? Do you agree that Extremist Islam has negative attitude towards depictions of people in art and this antagonism towards the representation of the human figure has resulted in the destruction of the Buddhas of bamyan , the nose of the Great Sphinx of Giza and mosaics in the Hagia Sophia. What do you think of music , photography and dance and other fine arts.

There is nothing wrong with art. Taliban have their own puppet-master. They are self-proclaimed owners of the Muslims' agenda. Most of their action are not in-line with puritanical Islam.

9. What do you think of Pashtunwali? Do you think its allowed to practise Pashtunwali or Pashtuns must adopt the so called Islamic or Arab culture and social norms?

Well, if Pashtunwali contradict Quranic injunctions then oil and water can't mix. Islamic and Arab cultures are not the same. Islam is a culture and a way of life on its own.

10. Why are you against democracy , secularism and human rights as interpreted in the west and the developed world?

We are not. Today's interpretation of democracy, secularism and human rights, as interpreted in the West and the developed world, only cater to their own agendas. Islam's interpertatin of democracy, secularism and human rights looks out for everyone's interests.

[Badlun]

I shall come soon to the observations and comments or questions of Momin, but I am still waiting for the replies of sangar wror to the questions.

[Millatpal Noorzai]

Instead of pulling it longer with countless and baseless questions,lets address the core issue and try to unveil OSHO's intention's behind such threads.

Muslims as individuals or ruling authorities do not dictate but implement Islamic commandments and could have numerous flaws,whereas Islamic commandments revealed by Allah,practiced,preached and ordered by his Prohpeht Muhammad PBUH are flawless and are virtual by all accounts.

OSHO bro! If you think any of the Islamic commandments or rulings in any part of a human's life are incomplete,evil,non satisfactory or less beneficent than a man made law, bring it forward and as Muslims we all will try to clarify it for you.

[Badlun]

In red are my comments on Momin remarks

Quote:
1. Whats your concept of Sharia?
Which aspect of Shariah do you wish to discuss?

The question was about your concept of Sharia not about the aspects of Sharia. You may explain what do you mean of Sharia.Your definition of Sharia.

Quote:
2. How can you prove that Islam is a complete system and a complete way of life and its not only a religion?
It dictates every aspect of ones life from going to the bathroom to consorting with your spouse to your interaction in society to how you should await death every moment.

Do you think that islam has a complete political , economic, cultural, social, scientific, technological, philosophical, psychological etc systems. If yes then wiill you explain them briefly one by one. You think we dont need modern political system like democracy and economic models. every thing is given by Islam.

Quote:
3. Can you show that except the few initial years of islam, it ever remained a successful political and economic system implemented by any state or government?
Unfortunately no, however, that is not because of Islam's inability, that is because of the corruption that overtook Islamic states. They forgot their priorities.

It was not corruption mainly but Islam is only a religion. It cant remain as political or economic system.

Quote:
4. Whats the concept of human rights in Islam? Dont you think that islam contradicts many universally declared human rights like equality of man and woman , the death penalty for apostates, the right to change the religion, Muslim Apartheid of religious isolation and gender segregation, nferior status of women in Muslim countries and the nonexistence of maternal rights to children , Violence towards critics of Islam etc

If you look at the UN Charter of Human Rights you would be astonished to see that Islam had implemented them over 1430 years ago.

Where islam implemented it. In Umayyad, Abassids dictatorial regimes or where. Only 30 years of pious caliphs cant be sufficient for a system out of 1400 years

Quote:
5. How can you explain and justify the evidence system of sharia, equality of two women to one man as witnesses, provision of four witnesses by a a poor woman who is sexually violated, the absence of punishment for rape or sex with minor age or homosexuals sex without consent, inheritance of two women equal to one man, polygamy and the harsh punishments like stoning to death and cutting of hands?

Are you sure all of your accusations here is based on Islamic Shariah, or is it your observations of present day so-called Muslim states?

This is what we see in the so called Sharia. If not you may deny the above that these dont exist in islam or sharia

Quote:
6. Hadith are drawn from the writings of scholars writing between 844 and 874 CE, more than 200 years after the death of Mohammed in 632. How each and every hadith in the sihahe sita is authentic and must be followed in letter and spirit?
Where did you get this info from? You are ill informed.

You then inform me that this not correct.

Quote:
7. Dont you think that violence is implicit in the Qur'anic text if not interpreted contextually and metaphorically and in the light of modern day realities , and that Islamic groups like Ahle Hadith, Taliban Wahabis, Salafis etc promote terrorism in the world?

It is not implicit, these groups which you have mentions are picking and choosing what they wish from this Holy Quran to suit their political agendas. Islam does not condone violence. Self-defense and the protection of freedom of conscience is a different issue.

Quote:

8 What do you think about the destruction of art by Taliban? Do you agree that Extremist Islam has negative attitude towards depictions of people in art and this antagonism towards the representation of the human figure has resulted in the destruction of the Buddhas of bamyan , the nose of the Great Sphinx of Giza and mosaics in the Hagia Sophia. What do you think of music , photography and dance and other fine arts.

There is nothing wrong with art. Taliban have their own puppet-master. They are self-proclaimed owners of the Muslims' agenda. Most of their action are not in-line with puritanical Islam.

Quote:
9. What do you think of Pashtunwali? Do you think its allowed to practise Pashtunwali or Pashtuns must adopt the so called Islamic or Arab culture and social norms?

Well, if Pashtunwali contradict Quranic injunctions then oil and water can't mix. Islamic and Arab cultures are not the same. Islam is a culture and a way of life on its own.
Can you please give main features of islamic culture which is not Arab. Pashtunwali is culture and Islam is religion. Both are two different spheres of life.

Quote:
10. Why are you against democracy , secularism and human rights as interpreted in the west and the developed world?

We are not. Today's interpretation of democracy, secularism and human rights, as interpreted in the West and the developed world, only cater to their own agendas. Islam's interpertatin of democracy, secularism and human rights looks out for everyone's interests.

You say you are not and then you say that the western concepts cater to their own agendas......and will you explain islamic concepts of democracy, secularism and human rights

[MeemWawMeemNoon]

Quote:
1. Whats your concept of Sharia?
Which aspect of Shariah do you wish to discuss?

The question was about your concept of Sharia not about the aspects of Sharia. You may explain what do you mean of Sharia.Your definition of Sharia.

The whole of the Holy Quran is Shariah, Islamic Jurisprudence. So, what aspect of Islamic Jurisprudence do you wish to talk about?

Quote:
2. How can you prove that Islam is a complete system and a complete way of life and its not only a religion?
It dictates every aspect of ones life from going to the bathroom to consorting with your spouse to your interaction in society to how you should await death every moment.

Do you think that islam has a complete political , economic, cultural, social, scientific, technological, philosophical, psychological etc systems. If yes then wiill you explain them briefly one by one. You think we dont need modern political system like democracy and economic models. every thing is given by Islam.

These science have to be developed by man; however, Quran has given you a direction, so as to not waste your time. For example, usury, alcohol, respect for parents, getting educated, to ponder about the purpose of life. There is no true version of democracy that works in the world. So, therefore, this whole concept is flawed: you always need someone to make a decision and vote the rest. This concept is beautifully presented in the Holy Quran.

Quote:
3. Can you show that except the few initial years of islam, it ever remained a successful political and economic system implemented by any state or government?
Unfortunately no, however, that is not because of Islam's inability, that is because of the corruption that overtook Islamic states. They forgot their priorities.

It was not corruption mainly but Islam is only a religion. It cant remain as political or economic system.

Yes, I agree with you. After the Rightly Guided Caliphate Islam spread by tyrants. They controlled church and state. Something which they should not have. The first four khulafaa knew where to draw the line when it came to church and state.

Quote:
4. Whats the concept of human rights in Islam? Dont you think that islam contradicts many universally declared human rights like equality of man and woman , the death penalty for apostates, the right to change the religion, Muslim Apartheid of religious isolation and gender segregation, nferior status of women in Muslim countries and the nonexistence of maternal rights to children , Violence towards critics of Islam etc

If you look at the UN Charter of Human Rights you would be astonished to see that Islam had implemented them over 1430 years ago.

Where islam implemented it. In Umayyad, Abassids dictatorial regimes or where. Only 30 years of pious caliphs cant be sufficient for a system out of 1400 years

Yes, I agree.The Prophet (saw) made note of this. You are right. That is why the final khilafat would be based on prophethood again.

Quote:
5. How can you explain and justify the evidence system of sharia, equality of two women to one man as witnesses, provision of four witnesses by a a poor woman who is sexually violated, the absence of punishment for rape or sex with minor age or homosexuals sex without consent, inheritance of two women equal to one man, polygamy and the harsh punishments like stoning to death and cutting of hands?

Are you sure all of your accusations here is based on Islamic Shariah, or is it your observations of present day so-called Muslim states?

This is what we see in the so called Sharia. If not you may deny the above that these dont exist in islam or sharia

This is a long discussion that deserves its own thread.

Quote:
6. Hadith are drawn from the writings of scholars writing between 844 and 874 CE, more than 200 years after the death of Mohammed in 632. How each and every hadith in the sihahe sita is authentic and must be followed in letter and spirit?
Where did you get this info from? You are ill informed.

You then inform me that this not correct.

We should only follow ahadith that don't contradict the Holy Quran.

Quote:
7. Dont you think that violence is implicit in the Qur'anic text if not interpreted contextually and metaphorically and in the light of modern day realities , and that Islamic groups like Ahle Hadith, Taliban Wahabis, Salafis etc promote terrorism in the world?

It is not implicit, these groups which you have mentions are picking and choosing what they wish from this Holy Quran to suit their political agendas. Islam does not condone violence. Self-defense and the protection of freedom of conscience is a different issue.

Quote:

8 What do you think about the destruction of art by Taliban? Do you agree that Extremist Islam has negative attitude towards depictions of people in art and this antagonism towards the representation of the human figure has resulted in the destruction of the Buddhas of bamyan , the nose of the Great Sphinx of Giza and mosaics in the Hagia Sophia. What do you think of music , photography and dance and other fine arts.

There is nothing wrong with art. Taliban have their own puppet-master. They are self-proclaimed owners of the Muslims' agenda. Most of their action are not in-line with puritanical Islam.

Quote:
9. What do you think of Pashtunwali? Do you think its allowed to practise Pashtunwali or Pashtuns must adopt the so called Islamic or Arab culture and social norms?

Well, if Pashtunwali contradict Quranic injunctions then oil and water can't mix. Islamic and Arab cultures are not the same. Islam is a culture and a way of life on its own.
Can you please give main features of islamic culture which is not Arab. Pashtunwali is culture and Islam is religion. Both are two different spheres of life.

Treating your wives with respect?

Quote:
10. Why are you against democracy , secularism and human rights as interpreted in the west and the developed world?

We are not. Today's interpretation of democracy, secularism and human rights, as interpreted in the West and the developed world, only cater to their own agendas. Islam's interpertatin of democracy, secularism and human rights looks out for everyone's interests.

You say you are not and then you say that the western concepts cater to their own agendas......and will you explain islamic concepts of democracy, secularism and human rights

I did.