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  • Do you accept these people as Muslims?

    The telling of jokes and humorous tales is an important part of Bektashi culture and teaching. Frequently these poke fun at conventional religious views by counterpoising the Bektashi dervish as an iconoclastic figure.

    For example:

    A Bektashi was praying in the mosque. While those around him were praying "May God grant me faith," he muttered "May God grant me plenty of wine." The imam heard him and asked angrily why instead of asking for faith like everyone else, he was asking God for something sinful. The Bektashi replied, "Well, everyone asks for what they don't have."

    A Bektashi was a passenger in a rowing boat travelling from Eminönü to Üsküdar in Istanbul. When a storm blew up, the boatman tried to reassure him by saying "Fear not—God is great!" the Bektashi replied, "Yes, God is great, but the boat is small."

    An imam was preaching about the evils of alcohol and asked "If you put a pail of water and a pail of rakı in front of a donkey, which one will he drink from?" A Bektashi in the congregation immediately answered. "The water!" "Indeed," said the imam, "and why is that?" "Because he's an ass.

    They say in Albania, the pig is halal if slaughtered using Islamic rituals.

    Mount Tomorr in Albania is attractive not only for its picturesque landscapes and a rarely achievable solitude for a modern traveler, it is also a place of pilgrimage and a place of worship of the Europe's last Bektashi Order of Dervishes.

    Bektashi is a Sufi order named after a 13th century Persian saint, Haji Bektashi Veli. It is close to Shia branch of Islam (for the veneration of Ali), contains some elements of Christianity and even shamanism. For example, Bektashi use the Gospel and revere almost all Orthodox saints. They also have an initiation ritual similar to baptism, using water with rose essence, and a semblance of communion with bread, wine and cheese. The details of those rituals are kept secret and no one except for participants may know what happens during the ritual. Another unique phenomenon in the Muslim world is practice confession and use of religious icons.

    Bektashi Order existed in Turkey, Albania and Bosnia, and consisted of many Christians who converted to Islam. The order was also active in Syria, Iraq, Egypt, and other countries. According to Bektashi, the world is perceived by the triad: Allah, Mohammed and Ali. In Islamic folklore Bektashi were always described as free-thinkers, deviating from traditional Islamic laws. For example, Bektashi did not care about banning of alcohol and pork, the requirement for women to cover their faces, facing Mecca while praying and other rules. Haji Bektashi himself did not abide by the rules of Sharia and never even prayed. The basic ideas of the order concentrated on a mystical union of man with God, respect for others, tolerance, condemnation of luxury and equality of men and women.

    All Ottoman Janissaries were attributed to the Bektashi order. After the dissolution of the Janissaries in 1826, the order lost its privileged status, and after the revolution of Kemal in 1925 Bektashi fled Turkey and settled in Albania, where 20% of the population were connected to the order.

    Currently, in contrast to Turkey, where the Bektashi are mostly a tourist attraction, in Albania, which is now the center of Bektashi activity, practicing the order's beliefs is quite a common phenomenon. In Albania, entire rural areas would convert to Bektashizm to resist Sunni Islam - the religion of their conquerors. In the early twentieth century, after the proclamation of independence of Albania, the state recognized the independence of Bektashi religious community, and Tirana was transformed into a world center of this religion. Until then, the Order acted as a secret organization. Although Tirana is the center of Bektashi in the modern days, a detailed study of their doctrine is still not possible due to the extreme isolation of the organization.

    There are several Tekkes on Tomorr mountain. A Tekke is a Bektashi lodge, which combines a number of different functions, like charity and accomodation for travelers. Sometimes tekkes were built isolated, but more often they were connected to a mosque, with a large kitchen and dining room for novices and visitors, and sometimes with a school. Usually the same complex had the tomb of the founder, and the newer tekkes would be built around the existing sacred burial places.

    Tomorr mountain is one of the main pilgrimage places, as well as the place of the main Bektashi celebration, which takes place every year in August and lasts five days in a row. The celebration includes various Bektashi rituals, pilgrims pray at the graves, light candles and sleep in tents. One of the central rituals of the celebration is the sacrifice of sheep.

    Men, women, Bektashi, Muslims and Christians are allowed to participate in the celebration – on this day, Bektashi believe in the supernatural powers of Mount Tomorr more than in the power of the Quran or the Bible.
    The most impressive site is the tekke with the grave of Abaz Aliu, 1200 meters above the sea level. According to a legend, wounded in battle, Abaz Aliu ascended the top of the mount and died there.
    Originally posted by Bengal_Tiger
    He is a very clever guy, very intelligent. The clown persona he has on here is just for messing around and time pass on the net...
    "Za d mazaro pa kaat khob kam, zma janan pa double bed kawi khoboona..."

    "Yaar pa burgero amukhta da - zmung sarry doddy ta laas na lagawina"

    Khudaya d tol Kandahar gul ky... d yaar d para ba daste gulaan rawrama

  • #2
    I'm wary on Tafkfiring people, it's not our place to go around takfiring people, even if they're sinful. Unless they overtly reject Islam and the tenets of Islam, I would not accuse them of being non-Muslims.

    Also, as economist Kaushik Basu says: "For a nation to progress it is important for people to spend time on science, mathematics and literature instead of spending time showing that 5,000 years ago their ancestors did science, mathematics and literature."


    Originally posted by ذو الفقار
    don’t try to be smart.

    Comment


    • #3
      Takfir

      Assalamu alaykum,

      I agree with Efreetzai. Beware of takfeer. It's not for the ordinary Muslim to pronounce takfeer on others or give Islamic verdicts.

      Manana

      Comment


      • #4
        This is shirk. It's not my opinion. shirk is associating part ners with All Mighty Allah. As well as going against the Sunnah of the Rasul Allah (peace and blessings to him).

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by کیش View Post
          This is shirk. It's not my opinion. shirk is associating part ners with All Mighty Allah. As well as going against the Sunnah of the Rasul Allah (peace and blessings to him).
          Also in the same region, is the Alevi "sect".

          They have a concept "Haqq-Mohammad-Ali", in which "Haqq" refers to the Divine nature of Allah, "Mohammad" which is the "path of Sunnah", for them represents something called "Jem" - congregation and rituals - Jem (Alevism - Wikipedia), and finally, "Ali" represents "the Nur", which refers to the "Awliya" or saints.

          They believe:

          "Only Allah is a real entity, Muhammad and Ali being simple manifestations of the way (Yol) and the light (Noor) of Allah (Haqq) and not of Allah himself, hence they are neither equal to it nor separate independent entities."

          In Alevism, Muhammed is the means by which the Nasut (human nature) of the Avlioh (Saints) achieve ittihad (communion) with Haqq being the Lahut (divine nature) of Allah. It has more in common with theosis and the distinction and unity of the divine and human physes in orthodox Christology than it does with any kind of tritheism.

          Allah is divine consciousness which first generates and gives shape to the Kull-i Nafs, a latent passive energy existing within Godhead. Kull-i Nafs is actually the apparent power of God to give life form, almost like a womb in that it is a place of manifestation where the concealed potential within Allah can be known and made visible. Thus, the physical universe is a mirror image of Allah. Kull-i Nafs reflects the spirit or divine consciousness of Allah. Nafs is Arabic for breath and it is the breath that binds the spirit with Allah. Kull-i Nafs is also envisioned as the Universal Soul or Soul Body as it is the divine consciousness reflected through the breath of Allah which gives this soul its own life and forms the Universal Human, the prototypal human, made manifest in Muhammad. However, the prototypal human is not male or female, but is a perfect interplay between the two in much the same way as the Taoists envision the Taiji. Within this prototypal human active energies contain passive and passive contain active. The light or Nur which links the two together is represented by Ali.

          Alevis feel no difficulty in speaking about God as a unity of heart, mind and spirit but believe that the term Hak-Muhammed-Ali aşkına (for the love of God-Muhammad-Ali) has nothing to do with a tritheistic polytheism and is misinterpreted by outsiders. According to them it's a short way to refer to Allah as the only One to be worshipped, Muhammad as the Rasul and Ali as wali along with the Twelve Imams in Alevism. Just like Shia Muslims Alevis say: "La ilahe ilallah, Muhammadden Resulullah, Aliyyen Veliyullah" (There is no god but God, Muhammad is His messenger, Ali is His wali).
          Alevis believe that all prophets and saints were strictly monotheists.

          Quran 18:110: Say, "I am only a man like you, to whom has been revealed that your god is one God. So whoever would hope for the meeting with his Lord - let him do righteous work and not associate in the worship of his Lord anyone."

          Quran 41:6: Say, "I am only a man like you to whom it has been revealed that your god is but one God; so take a straight course to Him and seek His forgiveness." And woe to those who associate others with Allah
          Originally posted by Bengal_Tiger
          He is a very clever guy, very intelligent. The clown persona he has on here is just for messing around and time pass on the net...
          "Za d mazaro pa kaat khob kam, zma janan pa double bed kawi khoboona..."

          "Yaar pa burgero amukhta da - zmung sarry doddy ta laas na lagawina"

          Khudaya d tol Kandahar gul ky... d yaar d para ba daste gulaan rawrama

          Comment


          • #6
            I don't consider them Muslim, along with anyone else pulling out some sort of reformed or changed version of Islam, the hell those people don't even pray to Allah?! You can't change Allah's teachings and then still call it Islam.
            I noticed many shia's have Christian like practices and beliefs and are often very close to Christians, like when in their belief that imam Ali (ra) was sacrificed the same way prophet issa was, some shias believe that prophet issa was killed/crucified as well, I've seen many Iraqi shias like that.

            Comment


            • #7
              I thought some of my childhood bullies(an albanian and a bosnian) were those kind of muslims, until i reaf rest of the article.

              But no. I don't consider them muslims though.
              Last edited by jama0112; 04-29-2018, 04:43 PM.

              Comment


              • #8
                Lol pashtuns deciding who is muslim or not, you probably have the least authority in the muslim world. Imagine if a saudi muslim sees this thread, he would die laughing

                Comment


                • #9
                  Technically

                  "Pakhtun342" and "Jama0112" and "zda kawunkai" are Black Pakistani troll accounts, so it doesn't really count as Pashtun

                  Also, as economist Kaushik Basu says: "For a nation to progress it is important for people to spend time on science, mathematics and literature instead of spending time showing that 5,000 years ago their ancestors did science, mathematics and literature."


                  Originally posted by ذو الفقار
                  don’t try to be smart.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Karachi View Post
                    Lol pashtuns deciding who is muslim or not, you probably have the least authority in the muslim world. Imagine if a saudi muslim sees this thread, he would die laughing
                    Muslims or not, that doesnt really matter. Pashtuns might have no authority when it comes to doing takfir on other Muslims, but they are a legitimate authority when it comes to accepting someone as Pashtun or not. And they unanimously decided to reject you.

                    Now you must keep wandering until you find a nation desperate enough to accept a pathetic individual like you as their own. Good luck, Apu LOL
                    "For thirty years, I endured much pain and strife,
                    I awaken the Ajam by this Persian [language]. "

                    -Ferdowsi.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      S a v a g e

                      Also, as economist Kaushik Basu says: "For a nation to progress it is important for people to spend time on science, mathematics and literature instead of spending time showing that 5,000 years ago their ancestors did science, mathematics and literature."


                      Originally posted by ذو الفقار
                      don’t try to be smart.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Firdousi View Post
                        Muslims or not, that doesnt really matter. Pashtuns might have no authority when it comes to doing takfir on other Muslims, but they are a legitimate authority when it comes to accepting someone as Pashtun or not. And they unanimously decided to reject you.

                        Now you must keep wandering until you find a nation desperate enough to accept a pathetic individual like you as their own. Good luck, Apu LOL
                        Back then i didnt realize how embarrassing it is to be pashtun or tajik, never will I or any other desi claim to from your people

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Karachi View Post
                          Back then i didnt realize how embarrassing it is to be pashtun or tajik, never will I or any other desi claim to from your people
                          Coincidentally this relevation JUST HAPPENED To come after you embarassed yourself on here desperately groveling for an Afghan girl and and acting out your beta male nature in true Indic fashion LOL

                          Also, as economist Kaushik Basu says: "For a nation to progress it is important for people to spend time on science, mathematics and literature instead of spending time showing that 5,000 years ago their ancestors did science, mathematics and literature."


                          Originally posted by ذو الفقار
                          don’t try to be smart.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Karachi View Post
                            Back then i didnt realize how embarrassing it is to be pashtun or tajik, never will I or any other desi claim to from your people
                            Nobody cares, virgin. You came here to entertain us. Once we get tired of your low IQ BS, we will kick you out once againand keep making fun at your expense. Since you are a low life Apu with no honor or dignity, eventually you will come back again. And we will repeat the process again, over, and over again, until you die. Then we will keep laughing at you and your pathetic existence LOL
                            "For thirty years, I endured much pain and strife,
                            I awaken the Ajam by this Persian [language]. "

                            -Ferdowsi.

                            Comment

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