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  • Quran on War and Fighting and Jizya myth

    After 9-11 there has been various debates about Islam. Some have said that the terrorist are Islam's true spoken. The so called moderates practice taqiya. Taqiya is the deliberate lying for the faith. They say Islam is a violent religion that commands Muslims to kill non Muslim. Non Muslims have 3 choices, either they convert, pay the jizya(tax) or die. They say Muhammad was peaceful for PR reasons and once strong showed his true colors and preached violent jihad. They say all the peaceful verses were abrogated after his final victory with this verse:

    9.5. But when the forbidden months are past, then fight and slay the Pagans wherever ye find them, an seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem (of war); but if they repent, and establish regular prayers and practise regular charity, then open the way for them: for God is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful.

    And also this verse:

    9.29. Fight those who believe not in God nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by God and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued.

    These verses are chosen for a reason. When read alone it implies a command to attack until they convert. Of course there are other verses in the Koran that talks about fighting. But why do they tend to focus on this one? Its simple, the other verses tend to show the defensive nature of the war the early Muslims fought and also the malicious intent and behavior of the pagans. Thus never cited. Lets look at some of them:

    2.190. Fight in the cause of God those who fight you, but do not transgress limits; for God loveth not transgressors

    2.191. And slay them wherever ye catch them, and turn them out from where they have Turned you out; for tumult and oppression are worse than slaughter; but fight them not at the Sacred Mosque, unless they (first) fight you there; but if they fight you, slay them. Such is the reward of those who suppress faith

    2.193. And fight them on until there is no more Tumult or oppression, and there prevail justice and faith in God, but if they cease, Let there be no hostility except to those who practise oppression

    Also:

    2.217. They ask thee concerning fighting in the Prohibited Month. Say: "Fighting therein is a grave (offence); but graver is it in the sight of God to prevent access to the path of God, to deny Him, to prevent access to the Sacred Mosque, and drive out its members." Tumult and oppression are worse than slaughter. Nor will they cease fighting you until they turn you back from your faith if they can. And if any of you Turn back from their faith and die in unbelief, their works will bear no fruit in this life and in the Hereafter; they will be companions of the Fire and will abide therein.

    All these verses talks about fighting, however within these verses the defensive nature of the verses and the malicious behavior of the pagans is cited. Thus those who wish to attack Islam never cite those verses. Its a deliberate attempt to hide what the Koran is saying and using selective verses to imply what they know the verses does not mean.

    Lets however look at the verse that is often cited. This time we will take the verses before and after it to see what is the context this verse is talking.

    9.4. (But the treaties are) not dissolved with those Pagans with whom ye have entered into alliance and who have not subsequently failed you in aught, nor aided any one against you. So fulfil your engagements with them to the end of their term: for God loveth the righteous.

    9.5. But when the forbidden months are past, then fight and slay the Pagans wherever ye find them, an seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem (of war); but if they repent, and establish regular prayers and practise regular charity, then open the way for them: for God is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful.

    9.6. If one amongst the Pagans ask thee for asylum, grant it to him, so that he may hear the word of Allah. and then escort him to where he can be secure. That is because they are men without knowledge.

    9.7. How can there be a league, before Allah and His Messenger, with the Pagans, except those with whom ye made a treaty near the sacred Mosque? As long as these stand true to you, stand ye true to them: for Allah doth love the righteous.

    The verses when read in there Koranic context shows the nature of these wars. The were initiated by the pagans to silence the voice of the Koran. In the same chapter it explains the reason for these wars in the first place:

    9.13. Will ye not fight people who violated their oaths, plotted to expel the Messenger, and took the aggressive by being the first (to assault) you? Do ye fear them? Nay, it is God Whom ye should more justly fear, if ye believe!


    The verses clearly indicate that no forced conversion was there.There are standards that the Koran established for fighting.

    As for such who do not fight you on account of faith, or drive you forth from your homelands, God does not forbid you to show them kindness and to deal with them with equity, for God loves those who act equitably. God only forbids you to turn in friendship towards such as fight against you because of faith and drive you forth from your homelands or aid in driving you forth. As for those from among you who turn towards them for alliance, it is they who are wrongdoers. 60:8-9

    Permission (to fight) is given to those against whom war is being wrongfully waged, and verily, God has indeed the power to aid them. Those who have been driven from their homelands in defiance of right for no other reason than their saying, ‘Our Lord is God.’ 22:39-40

    However both Sunni Islam or Shia islam do not follow the Koranic guidance. They follow whats know as the hadiths. The hadiths are the supposed "oral" prophetic traditions they say was passed along orally across time and was collected and written down 2 to 3 centuries after the prophet. The prophet and his companions never left behind them any text except the Koran. The hadiths emerged during the reign of the Abbasid empire and was a way to establish an orthodoxy and give legitimacy to a corrupt dynasty by using the prophet's name. Everything from executing apostates, to stoning adulterers and labelling other monotheist as infidels have their support not in the koran, but in these so called hadiths. So hadiths have the same place in sectarian Islam as do the Talmud in Judaism. The Koran condemned the Talmud and Jesus in the Gospel of Mark 7 also condemned the Talmud. The Koran only recognizes the Torah and the Gospel. However like Islam, both these religions have abandoned these scriptues for either a supposed "oral" tradition that emerged centuries later or a supposed "holy ghost" who was to interpret the Gospel in ways not supported by the Gospel.

    The Koran makes clear the job of the prophet:

    16:82 But if they turn away from you, your only duty is a clear delivery of the Message .

    6:107 Yet if God had so willed, they would not have ascribed Divinity to aught besides Him; hence, We have not made you their keeper, nor are you a guardian over them.

    4:79-80 Say:'Whatever good betides you is from God and whatever evil betides you is from your own self and that We have sent you to mankind only as a messenger and all sufficing is God as witness. Whoso obeys the Messenger, he indeed obeys God. And for those who turn away, We have not sent you as a keeper."

    11:28 He (Noah) said "O my people! think over it! If I act upon a clear direction from my Lord who has bestowed on me from Himself the Merciful talent of seeing the right way, a way which you cannot see for yourself, does it follow that we can force you to take the right path when you definitely decline to take it?°

    17:53-54 And tell my servants that they should speak in a most kindly manner. Verily, Satan is always ready to stir up discord between men; for verily; Satan is mans foe .... Hence, We have not sent you with power to determine their Faith.

    88:21 22; And so, exhort them your task is only to exhort; you cannot compel them to believe.

    But most of all the Koran asks the prophet himself this question:

    10.99-100. If it had been thy Lord's will, they would all have believed,- all who are on earth! wilt thou then compel mankind, against their will, to believe! No soul can believe, except by the will of God, and He will place doubt (or obscurity) on those who will not understand

    The prophet's answer to the above question must have been "no"!

    109.1-6 Say : O ye that reject Faith,! I worship not that which ye worship, Nor will ye worship that which I worship, And I will not worship that which ye have been wont to worship, Nor will ye worship that which I worship, To you be your Way, and to me mine

  • #2
    Bigmo, do you understand Arabic? Have you studied the Quran in original Arabic language?
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    • #3
      Sangar, have you?
      Islam will prevail, a promise made by the Creator of this universe:

      [61:8] They desire to extinguish the light of Allah with the breath of their mouths, but Allah will perfect His light, even if the disbelievers hate it.

      [61:9] He it is Who has sent His Messenger with the guidance and the Religion of truth, that He may cause it to prevail over all religions, even if those who associate partners with God hate it.

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      • #4
        The Sects claim verse 9-29 is the sword verse that imposed the Islamic conquest(non Quranic term) on non Muslims and paying of what they call is Tax(Jizya).

        9.28. O ye who believe! Truly the Pagans are unclean; so let them not, after this year of theirs, approach the Sacred Mosque. And if ye fear poverty, soon will Allah enrich you, if He wills, out of His bounty, for Allah is All-knowing, All-wise.

        29. Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued

        Before it it says:

        9.7. How can there be a league, before Allah and His Messenger, with the Pagans, except those with whom ye made a treaty near the sacred Mosque? As long as these stand true to you, stand ye true to them: for Allah doth love the righteous

        8. How (can there be such a league), seeing that if they get an advantage over you, they respect not in you the ties either of kinship or of covenant? With (fair words from) their mouths they entice you, but their hearts are averse from you; and most of them are rebellious and wicked

        Jizya comes from jaza' meaning reward or compensate. The Quran also says:

        As for such who do not fight you on account of faith, or drive you forth from your homelands, God does not forbid you to show them kindness and to deal with them with equity, for God loves those who act equitably. God only forbids you to turn in friendship towards such as fight against you because of faith and drive you forth from your homelands or aid in driving you forth. As for those from among you who turn towards them for alliance, it is they who are wrongdoers. 60:8-9

        It also says:

        Permission (to fight) is given to those against whom war is being wrongfully waged, and verily, God has indeed the power to aid them. Those who have been driven from their homelands in defiance of right for no other reason than their saying, ‘Our Lord is God.’ 22:39-40

        So the verse must be read in the Quranic context and it seems its talking about the crowds of Mecca.

        2.193. And fight them on until there is no more Tumult or oppression, and there prevail justice and faith in God, but if they cease, Let there be no hostility except to those who practise oppression

        So it seems its talking about the persecutions in Mecca and upon the prophet's return to Mecca these verses came down. Its not a generic verse since the Quran seperates between the parties depending on their history with the prophet and his propagation and depending on their persecution of him and his followers.

        The verse about the people of the book also its talking about a certain crowd since the Quran itself says:

        Not all of them are alike: of the People of the book are a portion that stand (for the right); they rehearse the signs of Allah all night long and then prostrate themselves in adoration. They believe in Allah and the Last Day; they enjoin what is right and forbid what is wrong; and they (hasten in emulation) in (all) good works; they are in the ranks of the righteous. Of the good that they do nothing will be rejected of them; for Allah knoweth well those that do right. 3.113

        And there are certainly among the people of the Book those who believe in Allah in the revelation to you and in the revelation to them bowing in humility to Allah: they will not sell the signs of Allah for a miserable gain! for them is a reward with their Lord and Allah is swift in account. 3.199

        "Surely those who believe, and those who are Jews, and the Christians, and the Sabians -- whoever believes in God and the Last Day and does good, they shall have their reward from their Lord. And there will be no fear for them, nor shall they grieve" (2:62, 5:69, and many other verses).

        So I think this is talking about the crowd in Mecca who sent the prophet to exile and he and his followers lost their homes and property and this is a compensation(jizya) payment. Jizya has no relevance linguistically to tax. Tax in Arabic is dhareeba. Jizya is a reward.

        The sects say:

        Monqiz As-Saqqar attributes the word jizya to the root word jaza meaning "compensate" and defines it as "a sum of money given in return for protection".[14]
        Ibn Al-Mutaraz derives the word from 'idjzã, meaning "substitute" or "sufficiency" because "it suffices as a substitute for the dhimmi's embracement of Islam."[14]
        Yusuf al-Qaradawi says the word jizya is derived from the jazaa', meaning "reward", "return", or "compensation", and defines it as "a payment by the non-Muslim according to an agreement signed with the Muslim state".[15]

        Yet none of their definition justifies payment. Its clear from all their definition whether its subsutitute, reward or compensation that its talking about compensation or reward or substitution for something. It can not be for their rejection of faith since that is something not the prophet's business and not all of them were talked about in the Quran as I have shown. Its obvious this is about the crowds at Mecca after the prophet and his followers returned to after nearly 12 years in exile and the many battles fought.

        16:82 But if they turn away from you, your only duty is a clear delivery of the Message .

        6:107 Yet if God had so willed, they would not have ascribed Divinity to aught besides Him; hence, We have not made you their keeper, nor are you a guardian over them.

        4:79-80 Say:'Whatever good betides you is from God and whatever evil betides you is from your own self and that We have sent you to mankind only as a messenger and all sufficing is God as witness. Whoso obeys the Messenger, he indeed obeys God. And for those who turn away, We have not sent you as a keeper."

        24.54. Say: "Obey God, and obey the Messenger. but if ye turn away, he is only responsible for the duty placed on him and ye for that placed on you. If ye obey him, ye shall be on right guidance. The Messenger's duty is only to preach the clear (Message).

        88:21 22; And so, exhort them your task is only to exhort; you cannot compel them to believe.

        39:41 Assuredly, We have sent down the Book to you in right form for the good of man. Whoso guided himself by it does so to his own advantage, and whoso turns away from it does so at his own loss. You certainly are not their keeper

        109.1-6 Say : O ye that reject Faith,! I worship not that which ye worship, Nor will ye worship that which I worship, And I will not worship that which ye have been wont to worship, Nor will ye worship that which I worship, To you be your Way, and to me mine.

        Finally and this is the most important. Who is this ruler who is supposed to collect this "tax". Omar Al Bashir, Husni Mubarak, Ahmedinejad or Mullah Omar? And what for? For protection? From what?

        This is insane. If these Sects want taxes just say we want taxes. Everybody does it. But they need to find some religious justification so as to control people easier.


        9.90. Those were the (prophets) who received Allah.s guidance: Copy the guidance they received; Say: "No reward for this do I ask of you: This is no less than a message for the nations


        26.105-110 The people of Noah rejected the apostles. Behold, their brother Noah said to them: "Will ye not fear ((Allah))? "I am to you an apostle worthy of all trust: "So fear Allah, and obey me. "No reward do I ask of you for it: my reward is only from the Lord of the Worlds: "So fear Allah, and obey me."

        42.23. That is (the Bounty) whereof Allah gives Glad Tidings to His Servants who believe and do righteous deeds. Say: "No reward do I ask of you for this except the love of those near of kin." And if any one earns any good, We shall give him an increase of good in respect thereof: for Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Ready to appreciate (service).


        52. 36-41 Or did they create the heavens and the earth? Nay, they have no firm belief. Or are the Treasures of thy Lord with them, or are they the managers (of affairs)? Or have they a ladder, by which they can (climb up to heaven and) listen (to its secrets)? Then let (such a) listener of theirs produce a manifest proof. Or has He only daughters and ye have sons? Or is it that thou dost ask for a reward, so that they are burdened with a load of debt?- Or that the Unseen in it their hands, and they write it down?



        Quran is peace and freedom and justice.

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by MeemWawMeemNoon View Post
          Sangar, have you?
          I was gonna ask the same thing. But it looks like since HIS favorite scholars are the REAL Muslims, it's okay if he doesn't study the Quran from its original Arabic. Everyone else, however, MUST study the Quran in Arabic and learn Arabic and all possible translations in order to say ANYTHING about Islam.

          Typical extremist mentality: "Since I'm already on the right path, I'm not required to answer any questions that challenge my authority or the authority of my favorite scholars; but since you're different in your beliefs than I am, you MUST be questioned about your expertise."

          It bleeds ignorance, stupidity, intolerance, and everything bad.

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by Qrratugai View Post
            I was gonna ask the same thing. But it looks like since HIS favorite scholars are the REAL Muslims, it's okay if he doesn't study the Quran from its original Arabic. Everyone else, however, MUST study the Quran in Arabic and learn Arabic and all possible translations in order to say ANYTHING about Islam.

            Typical extremist mentality: "Since I'm already on the right path, I'm not required to answer any questions that challenge my authority or the authority of my favorite scholars; but since you're different in your beliefs than I am, you MUST be questioned about your expertise."

            It bleeds ignorance, stupidity, intolerance, and everything bad.
            Beloved sister, him and his gang don't know how to defend what they even believe in.

            When one of them says something, the rest of them "thanks" him and then they praise each other. They think that just because there are four or five of them and only one of their opponent that the opponent must be wrong because they don't see any "thanks" beneath his post.

            Little do they know that Muslims are only 20% of the world population, does that mean that Islam is wrong?

            I have yet to have a proper academic discussion with him or his superiors on this website. They just misquote and think that they have done great scholarly work.

            They just know how to point to the finger and abuse.
            Islam will prevail, a promise made by the Creator of this universe:

            [61:8] They desire to extinguish the light of Allah with the breath of their mouths, but Allah will perfect His light, even if the disbelievers hate it.

            [61:9] He it is Who has sent His Messenger with the guidance and the Religion of truth, that He may cause it to prevail over all religions, even if those who associate partners with God hate it.

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by Bigmo View Post
              The Sects claim verse 9-29 is the sword verse that imposed the Islamic conquest(non Quranic term) on non Muslims and paying of what they call is Tax(Jizya).

              9.28. O ye who believe! Truly the Pagans are unclean; so let them not, after this year of theirs, approach the Sacred Mosque. And if ye fear poverty, soon will Allah enrich you, if He wills, out of His bounty, for Allah is All-knowing, All-wise.

              29. Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued

              Before it it says:

              9.7. How can there be a league, before Allah and His Messenger, with the Pagans, except those with whom ye made a treaty near the sacred Mosque? As long as these stand true to you, stand ye true to them: for Allah doth love the righteous

              8. How (can there be such a league), seeing that if they get an advantage over you, they respect not in you the ties either of kinship or of covenant? With (fair words from) their mouths they entice you, but their hearts are averse from you; and most of them are rebellious and wicked

              Jizya comes from jaza' meaning reward or compensate. The Quran also says:

              As for such who do not fight you on account of faith, or drive you forth from your homelands, God does not forbid you to show them kindness and to deal with them with equity, for God loves those who act equitably. God only forbids you to turn in friendship towards such as fight against you because of faith and drive you forth from your homelands or aid in driving you forth. As for those from among you who turn towards them for alliance, it is they who are wrongdoers. 60:8-9

              It also says:

              Permission (to fight) is given to those against whom war is being wrongfully waged, and verily, God has indeed the power to aid them. Those who have been driven from their homelands in defiance of right for no other reason than their saying, ‘Our Lord is God.’ 22:39-40

              So the verse must be read in the Quranic context and it seems its talking about the crowds of Mecca.

              2.193. And fight them on until there is no more Tumult or oppression, and there prevail justice and faith in God, but if they cease, Let there be no hostility except to those who practise oppression

              So it seems its talking about the persecutions in Mecca and upon the prophet's return to Mecca these verses came down. Its not a generic verse since the Quran seperates between the parties depending on their history with the prophet and his propagation and depending on their persecution of him and his followers.

              The verse about the people of the book also its talking about a certain crowd since the Quran itself says:

              Not all of them are alike: of the People of the book are a portion that stand (for the right); they rehearse the signs of Allah all night long and then prostrate themselves in adoration. They believe in Allah and the Last Day; they enjoin what is right and forbid what is wrong; and they (hasten in emulation) in (all) good works; they are in the ranks of the righteous. Of the good that they do nothing will be rejected of them; for Allah knoweth well those that do right. 3.113

              And there are certainly among the people of the Book those who believe in Allah in the revelation to you and in the revelation to them bowing in humility to Allah: they will not sell the signs of Allah for a miserable gain! for them is a reward with their Lord and Allah is swift in account. 3.199

              "Surely those who believe, and those who are Jews, and the Christians, and the Sabians -- whoever believes in God and the Last Day and does good, they shall have their reward from their Lord. And there will be no fear for them, nor shall they grieve" (2:62, 5:69, and many other verses).

              So I think this is talking about the crowd in Mecca who sent the prophet to exile and he and his followers lost their homes and property and this is a compensation(jizya) payment. Jizya has no relevance linguistically to tax. Tax in Arabic is dhareeba. Jizya is a reward.

              The sects say:

              Monqiz As-Saqqar attributes the word jizya to the root word jaza meaning "compensate" and defines it as "a sum of money given in return for protection".[14]
              Ibn Al-Mutaraz derives the word from 'idjzã, meaning "substitute" or "sufficiency" because "it suffices as a substitute for the dhimmi's embracement of Islam."[14]
              Yusuf al-Qaradawi says the word jizya is derived from the jazaa', meaning "reward", "return", or "compensation", and defines it as "a payment by the non-Muslim according to an agreement signed with the Muslim state".[15]

              Yet none of their definition justifies payment. Its clear from all their definition whether its subsutitute, reward or compensation that its talking about compensation or reward or substitution for something. It can not be for their rejection of faith since that is something not the prophet's business and not all of them were talked about in the Quran as I have shown. Its obvious this is about the crowds at Mecca after the prophet and his followers returned to after nearly 12 years in exile and the many battles fought.

              16:82 But if they turn away from you, your only duty is a clear delivery of the Message .

              6:107 Yet if God had so willed, they would not have ascribed Divinity to aught besides Him; hence, We have not made you their keeper, nor are you a guardian over them.

              4:79-80 Say:'Whatever good betides you is from God and whatever evil betides you is from your own self and that We have sent you to mankind only as a messenger and all sufficing is God as witness. Whoso obeys the Messenger, he indeed obeys God. And for those who turn away, We have not sent you as a keeper."

              24.54. Say: "Obey God, and obey the Messenger. but if ye turn away, he is only responsible for the duty placed on him and ye for that placed on you. If ye obey him, ye shall be on right guidance. The Messenger's duty is only to preach the clear (Message).

              88:21 22; And so, exhort them your task is only to exhort; you cannot compel them to believe.

              39:41 Assuredly, We have sent down the Book to you in right form for the good of man. Whoso guided himself by it does so to his own advantage, and whoso turns away from it does so at his own loss. You certainly are not their keeper

              109.1-6 Say : O ye that reject Faith,! I worship not that which ye worship, Nor will ye worship that which I worship, And I will not worship that which ye have been wont to worship, Nor will ye worship that which I worship, To you be your Way, and to me mine.

              Finally and this is the most important. Who is this ruler who is supposed to collect this "tax". Omar Al Bashir, Husni Mubarak, Ahmedinejad or Mullah Omar? And what for? For protection? From what?

              This is insane. If these Sects want taxes just say we want taxes. Everybody does it. But they need to find some religious justification so as to control people easier.


              9.90. Those were the (prophets) who received Allah.s guidance: Copy the guidance they received; Say: "No reward for this do I ask of you: This is no less than a message for the nations


              26.105-110 The people of Noah rejected the apostles. Behold, their brother Noah said to them: "Will ye not fear ((Allah))? "I am to you an apostle worthy of all trust: "So fear Allah, and obey me. "No reward do I ask of you for it: my reward is only from the Lord of the Worlds: "So fear Allah, and obey me."

              42.23. That is (the Bounty) whereof Allah gives Glad Tidings to His Servants who believe and do righteous deeds. Say: "No reward do I ask of you for this except the love of those near of kin." And if any one earns any good, We shall give him an increase of good in respect thereof: for Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Ready to appreciate (service).


              52. 36-41 Or did they create the heavens and the earth? Nay, they have no firm belief. Or are the Treasures of thy Lord with them, or are they the managers (of affairs)? Or have they a ladder, by which they can (climb up to heaven and) listen (to its secrets)? Then let (such a) listener of theirs produce a manifest proof. Or has He only daughters and ye have sons? Or is it that thou dost ask for a reward, so that they are burdened with a load of debt?- Or that the Unseen in it their hands, and they write it down?



              Quran is peace and freedom and justice.

              Answer my question.
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              • #8
                Originally posted by MeemWawMeemNoon View Post
                Sangar, have you?
                O course. I study Quran verse by verse in orginal arabic plus the linguistic translation and the tafseer which is primarily Ibn Katheer, Qurtubi and Tabari. Plus contemrorary tafaseer by orthodox scholars such as Ibn Othaimeen.
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                • #9
                  Ok We can pray for the day when Mullah Omer is ameerul moemeneen from Saudi to Indonesia, and sangar his information minsiter. Ya one cn dream for it, but reality is different. People who live in dreams can never go forward.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Sangar View Post
                    O course. I study Quran verse by verse in orginal arabic plus the linguistic translation and the tafseer which is primarily Ibn Katheer, Qurtubi and Tabari. Plus contemrorary tafaseer by orthodox scholars such as Ibn Othaimeen.
                    I answered your question in another thread. Anyways yes I read the Quran in Arabic and I am fully aware about the Sunni clans interpretation of the verses I quote. They actually believe that the Quranic verses I quoted have been ABROGATED.

                    So whose following the Quran and who is not. I see these sects as political movements. Quresihi political movements. You know Sunni is Banu Ummaya, Shia is Banu Hashim and then the Fatimids came with a splinter gorup and so on. All Meccan and all are political movements. Sunnah is an atempt to create a legalistic and ritualistic theocracy.

                    The need of creating some kind of theoretical justification for what so far had been an instinctive reliance on the opinions of the majority, led, from the first decades of the second/eighth century onwards, to the living tradition being retrojected, and to its being ascribed to some of the great figures of the past. This process, too, began in Kufa, where the stage of doctrine achieved in the time of Hammad b. Abi Sulayman (d. I20/738) was attributed to Ibrahim al-Nakha'i (d. 95-6/7I3-I5). The Medinese followed suit and retrojected their own teaching to a number of ancient authorities who had died about the turn of the century, some of whom later became known as the 'seven jurists of Medina'. At the same time as the doctrine of the school of Kufa was retrospectively attributed to Ibrahim al-Nakha'i, a similar body of doctrine was directly connected with the very beginnings of Islam in Kufa by being attributed to Ibn Mas'ud, a Companion of the Prophet who had come to live in that city, and Ibrahim al-Nakha'i became the main transmitter of that body of doctrine, too. In the same way, other Companions of the Prophet became the eponyms of the schools of Medina and of Mecca. One further step in the search for a solid theoretical foundation of the doctrine of the ancient schools was taken in 'Iraq, very early in the second/eighth century, when the term ' Sunna of the Prophet ' was transferred from its political and theological into a legal context, and identified with the sunna, the ideal practice of the local community and the corresponding doctrine of its scholars. This term, which was taken over by the school of Syria, expressed the axiom that the practice of the Muslims derived from the practice of the Prophet, but it did not as yet imply the existence of positive information in the form of ' Traditions ' (Hadith), that the Prophet by his words or acts had in fact originated or approved any particular practice. It was not long before these Traditions, too, came into existence, and the persons who put them into circulation were the Traditionists.

                    The ancient schools of law themselves represented, in one aspect, an Islamic opposition to popular and administrative practice under the later Umayyads, and the opposition group which developed into the Traditionist movement emphasized this tendency. As long as a Companion of the Prophet had been the final authority for the doctrine of a school on a particular point, it was sufficient for a divergent doctrine to be put under the aegis of another Companion of equal or even higher authority, as happened in Kufa where all kinds of minority opinions were attributed to the Caliph 'Ali, who had made Kufa his capital. But after the general authority of the Prophet himself had been invoked by identifying the established doctrine with his sunna, a more specific reference to him was needed, and there appeared detailed statements or 'Traditions' which claimed to be the reports of ear- or eye-witnesses on the words or acts of the Prophet, handed down orally by an uninterrupted chain of trustworthy persons. Very soon the emphasis shifted from proposing certain opinions in opposition to the ancient schools to disseminating Traditions from the Prophet as such, and the movement of the Traditionists, which was to develop into a separate branch of Islamic religious learning, came into being. It was the main thesis of the Traditionists that formal Traditions from the Prophet superseded the living tradition of the school. The Traditionists existed in all great centres of Islam, where they formed groups in opposition to, but nevertheless in contact with, the local schools of law. Initially the ancient schools offered strong resistance to the disturbing element represented by the Traditions, but they had no real defence against their rising tide; they had to express their own doctrines in Traditions which allegedly went back to the Prophet, and to take increasing notice of the Traditions produced by their opponents. Finally the outlines and many details of Islamic law were cast into the form of Traditions from the Prophet. In this way, one of the greatest and most successful literary fictions came into being.

                    Joseph Schacht - 1960.

                    I think he simplified it a little too much. But its true in the sense that early hadiths did not always go back to the prophet, but later hadiths did. Now every sects claim to have their own hadiths from the prophet. This was a later practice.

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