Prominent scholars declare ISIS caliphate 'null and void'

[BarakzaiAbdali]

dagha pagha, that's all I'm hearing from you right now - careful not to take out this frustration on your goats too bad later tonight

and you probably look like one of the guys I posted earlier lol

Weak sauce, my son. Mongaloids of your caliber puff out their chest claiming to be Ghenghis's love children but sounds like the apple fell far far far from the supposed tree. By the way, I eat goats... I do not stump f-uck them like you do in your pseudo persian mongaloid bestiality flicks so try again.

[25tajik75pashtun]

Son, I keep telling you that you aren't a Prophet or a messenger but you keep insisting that you are like some sort of schizo affective disorder patient... and why you decided to publish your pervert proclivities here for all to see are beyond me.

You are so dam-n idiotic. Read the history of Malaysia before attributing Genghis's paternity to them. This is another example of how you spew garbage and shine sh-it attempting to peddle it as a historical reality - not so far off from your relying on an iranian travel guide to make a point that debunked your own original point. You are like a cockroach with one antenna cut off going in circles.

stop being an idiot and read up on the definition of what a mongoloid is

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mongoloid

I guess all the boy****ing and praying to a rock in the middle of the desert that historically was always a place for pagans (no lol, abraham had nothing to do with it) has really done your mind a number

lol and yes, you are a goat f*cker aren't you

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZI-yKzg3U0U

that's you or your father in the video right?

[25tajik75pashtun]

I cannot believe how mad some people get when I simply state that muhammad fornicated with a 9 year old - I mean this guy went from insulting my relatives to insulting the mongoloid race as a whole lol.

Maybe if muhammad allowed for his followers to have more than 4 wives like he did you wouldn't be as angry.

[BarakzaiAbdali]

stop being an idiot and read up on the definition of what a mongoloid is
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mongoloid

No you don't get it do you lol, 25% dog crap cannot equal Malaysian no matter how you cut it. You have some identity crises that leads you to link Mongaloids like yourself to Persians and then somehow trigger that schizo affective brain of yours to figure out "where you came from." LOOOOL. That's always the tack of a true haramee - working hard to find your daddy in the sea of races that generally view you as a steaming pile of maneuer.

Listen and learn handicapped boy, when I use the term I am using it in the way physicians used to describe Down Syndrome Patients like yourself:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Down_syndrome

Due to his perception that children with Down syndrome shared facial similarities with those of Blumenbach's Mongolian race, Down used the term 'mongoloid'.[43][102] While the term mongoloid (also mongolism or mongolian imbecility) continued to be used until the early 1970s, it is now considered unacceptable and is no longer in common use.[103] In 1961, 19 scientists suggested that "mongolism" had "misleading connotations" and had become "an embarrassing term".[103][104] The World Health Organization (WHO) dropped the term in 1965 after a request by the Mongolian delegate.

See that mongaloid? And mind you that is not an insult to Down Syndrome Kids since they cannot help what they are... you have a wholly different variant of "mongaloid imbecility" LOOOOL, the self induced variant.

I guess all the boy****ing and praying to a rock in the middle of the desert that historically was always a place for pagans (no lol, abraham had nothing to do with it) has really done your mind a number

LOOOOOL. I guess you are pissed off and trying reallllly realllly hard to generate some feasible insults... remember the flat head your race sports means brain space is inherently limited... so work with what you have compadre and not what you think you have. Its "has done a number on your mind" mongaloid baby.

lol and yes, you are a goat f*cker aren't you
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZI-yKzg3U0U
that's you or your father in the video right?

No genius - you posted your own home videos. I keep telling you, I didn't know you were my and your mother's love child until yesterday. You did not have to go and abuse an animal to deal with your pent up sexual frustrations. These days people like you have the right to get married in Vermont.

x

[BarakzaiAbdali]

I cannot believe how mad some people get when I simply state that muhammad fornicated with a 9 year old - I mean this guy went from insulting my relatives to insulting the mongoloid race as a whole lol.

LOL, or "this guy" whipped the shi-t out of you and took your partug off proverbially and figuratively speaking (we all collectively laughed at your hermaphroditic tidbits when it was off). You went from feigning knowledge to everyone realizing that your self induced down syndrome behavior (hence the mongoloid baby) manifests itself in: referencing travel guides as authority sources and watching goat porno.

Maybe if muhammad allowed for his followers to have more than 4 wives like he did you wouldn't be as angry.

Look son, I dont know if thats inverted symbolism of sorts to try to understand why I did not marry your mother when we found out about you.... it was a tough time, I had a problem when I found out that she was a donkey dressed up as a human and told her that I was sure the mule son we produced would one day seek me out. The most depressing part of it all is that you got her lack of smarts and her bad mongaloid looks

x

[25tajik75pashtun]

x

Go on and keep insulting one of your fellow muslims, honestly I'm laughing at this - you have a mentality that is as subhuman as it gets, even moreso because you believe that you are in any way "castrating me proverbally/mentaly/figuratively".

Ahh such cavemen mentality is the reason why pashtuns will always remain at the bottom of every social or mental ranking for the rest of humanity.

Honestly I don't understand all of this anger and animosity in response to saying the prophet ****ed a 9 year old as well as having several wives/concubines.

[BarakzaiAbdali]

Go on and keep insulting one of your fellow muslims, honestly I'm laughing at this - you have a mentality that is as subhuman as it gets, even moreso because you believe that you are in any way "castrating me proverbally/mentaly/figuratively".

Believing is a faith based concept - doing so is a witnessed reality haramiyaah LOOOL.

Ahh such cavemen mentality is the reason why pashtuns will always remain at the bottom of every social or mental ranking for the rest of humanity.

Says the mongoloid still smarting from the successive b-itch slaps delivered by Pashtuns from AbdurRahman Khan onwards and even before. Sad that some "caveman" took you guys out to the toolshed a few times and left behind some bas-tards afterwards.

Honestly I don't understand all of this anger and animosity in response to saying the prophet ****ed a 9 year old as well as having several wives/concubines.

Anger and animosity? LOOOOL. Muhammad's name reverberates through history and since he is not around you do him little harm with hurling some invective. I on the other hand get to witness your responses to the truth of the matter - which is the story of your conception on one dark and stormy night when as I said, your mother brayed like a donkey.

OK. Now remember, the category you fit in, in case you forget is mongoloid imbecile... that means you need about a 6 hour head start to keep up with even those that are middle of the bell curve LOOOL. We proved this when I gave you 2 hours and 4 hours to generate something meaningful and you failed. So now lets see if 6 hours of my peaceful happy sleep (made even more peaceful based on how easy it was to demonstrate your innate 25% feces component contributes to your mongoloid behavior) is heard start enough for you, you thalidomide baby.

[25tajik75pashtun]

OK. Now remember, the category you fit in, in case you forget is mongoloid imbecile... that means you need about a 6 hour head start to keep up with even those that are middle of the bell curve LOOOL. We proved this when I gave you 2 hours and 4 hours to generate something meaningful and you failed. So now lets see if 6 hours of my peaceful happy sleep (made even more peaceful based on how easy it was to demonstrate your innate 25% feces component contributes to your mongoloid behavior) is heard start enough for you, you thalidomide baby.

Seems as though your father often ****ed your mother in front of you after finishing with you seeing as you love fantasizing so much about other people's mothers.
I'm done talking with a simpleton like yourself.

[BarakzaiAbdali]

Seems as though your father often ****ed your mother in front of you after finishing with you seeing as you love fantasizing so much about other people's mothers.
I'm done talking with a simpleton like yourself.

LOOOOOOOOOOL; I refer you to the spanish word imposible'. For you see, your grandparents (my parents) were not so loose mannered like that braying creature you call mother to put on Tijuana Donkey Shows! Nice try though.

PS. I would be careful throwing around the term "simpleton" since your aptitude for using travel guides as historical reference indicates your brain operates on algorithms far far below the level of even human retard.

[Badlun]

There is a portion of this that I slightly agree with. In the West there is fear mongering that has been going on for a decade and a half now about the "Caliphate" a concept that is historically complex and a role that evolved across centuries.

When a historian like Gibbons discusses the Caliphate he has no fear of the concept and understands these shades of complexity. Gibbons would also understand that even in the early Islamic tradition, Abdullah ibn Zubayr and Mawiyah offered differing perspectives on obeying a Caliph.

This evolution of the executive is really no different than for instance, the evolution of the American executive. Andrew Bacevich, a man I respect greatly writes in detail about the Imperial Presidency. In the modern era, great writers like Justin Raimando demand that Congress invoke the War Powers act to reign in an executive that they view as gone rogue.

Steven Emerson and others have been trying for two to three decades to lump 1/5 of the world's population with diversity of thought into a homogenous body of automatons waiting to be triggered at a moment's notice should a caliphate arise. In their simplistic propaganda, a Caliphate equivalent is created and then the Caliph gives an order and the whole 1/5 of the world's population starts acting in unison.

Now with ISIS we see that their theory is shattered. A few international recruits are but a small portion of the general population that has not acted on Baghdadi's ordinances and proclamations. Despite the military successes of ISIS, even local groups that are considered salafi have rejected their Caliphate.

One can argue about particulars of whether it accords or does not accord to the letter of the body of shariat, but my point is that in discussions Muslims should have no qualms pointing out that the Caliphate argument used to scare, cajole, and threaten Muslims into not having an amicable and evidence based discussion has been shattered utterly. The usage of this argument was to resurrect visions and nightmares of the third reich and to make it seem as if a war machine equivalent to Nazi Germany would arise the moment a viable Caliphate Proto-State arises. Instead, we see a diversity of thought within the Muslim world on this subject.

This is the intellectual kind of discussion which should be seen in this thread not those personal attacks and superiority of races etc.

Caliphate is now a dead horse. The proof is the one we see is that of IS. Muslims as well as non Muslims both do not recognize it to be caliphate or a legitimate governance system.

This is why I always oppose the political role of Islam. Islam unifies us spiritually but it can never unify Muslims politically or economically even not culturally or socially. Diversity is such a big reality from Morocco to Indonesia that one factor of religion cannot paint it in one green or black color.

Even after the death of the Prophet, there were political differences and Ali had to fight Ayesha and Umayayds against Abbasids etc otherwise we would have one caliphate till today. Caliphate was only used as guise for grabbing power and legitimizing their political acts. I do not know whether in Quran or authentic Hadith there is any proof of the existence of the institution of Caliphate in Islam.

[BarakzaiAbdali]

This is the intellectual kind of discussion which should be seen in this thread not those personal attacks and superiority of races etc.

Personal attacks arise when people phrase things in a stupid and insulting way. In the Qiraat of Ubay ibn Kaab occur the words "wa hua abla hum" according to one of the harf that the Prophet would read from regarding Quran 33:6. This qiraat does not have the ijma of the hafs or warsh qiraat nor is it mutawatir but it is still acknowledged by many a great scholar due to Ubay's outstanding role in Quranic scholarship amongst the Sahaba. This translates to: "and he (the Prophet) is as a father unto them (the believers)". This precedes the labeling of his wives as mothers of the believers.

I have read the works of Montgomery Watt, the more recent condescending works of Gerard Puin, William Muir, and I have even read Maxime Rodinson's slightly denigrating biographies of the Prophet. I have read Bernard Lewis's criticisms and orientialist discussion that Edward Said devastated.

In each of these instances these people approach their subject in a scholarly fashion and do not use clearly insulting terminologies that are meant to garner a reaction and are clearly debatable. Intricate discussions have been had by folks even like Karen Armstrong regarding the life and times of Muhammad providing a window of contemporaneous views of the man.

I have had the privilege of discussing Bahaullah with Bahais, Mirza with Mirzais, Krishna with Hindus and so on and so forth. There is a honorable tenor and tone one must strike when discussing these figures that hold spiritual value in the minds and hearts of billions. Even though Bahaullah comes through the shia tradition and his letters to the world have many issues that merit criticism, I did not go and call Bahaullah "a liar, fornicator, pervert, traitor, spy, etc." Rather, we had a factual discussion on Bahaullah's message and the actual role of his predecessor the Ba'b.

This is why even famed artist John Lennon had to apologise after making incendiary comments about how the Beatles "were bigger" than Jesus. The American South threatened the Beatles lives and did mass burning of their records:

http://ultimateclassicrock.com/john-...ar-than-jesus/

When he realized that his message came across wrong (he meant that musical figures and revolutionaries were playing a larger role in the lives of rock n roll youth than religious figures) he decided to address what he really meant.

Unlike Randolph (who I like) I have never requested muzzling or blocking or removing users from PF but I have made it clear that when our spiritual father figure (who is considered more important than even our own relatives spiritually) is insulted we have the right to answer in kind. To insult is not to have a scholarly discussion on his marriages, war decisions, treatment of minorities, leadership qualities, prophethood etc - but it is clear what is insulting and detestable. Even a khaar much less a man can tell what that is.

So I have no qualms nor do I have regrets about anything that was said. Militant secularists feel that by making these comments they are "teaching" backwards people the limits of freedom of speech and how to take criticism. In reality, they are doing nothing of the sort and just make themselves look dumb and get what they deserve when we give them back in kind what they sought to dish out.

If militant secularists want to discuss concepts the way Watts, Puin, and Rodinson do it (which is still aggressive and refreshing evidence based scholarship at least with some semblance of balance) then we are all for such discussions. If however, militant secularists seek discord and prefer to make stupid comments - well then a Pashtun knows how to defend his Prophet with equally sharp words and retorts to fit the occasion.


Caliphate is now a dead horse. The proof is the one we see is that of IS. Muslims as well as non Muslims both do not recognize it to be caliphate or a legitimate governance system.

You misunderstood the nature of my post. Caliphate is a concept that has been alive and well in the hearts of many even moderate Muslims. We cited a biography here and a detailed paper by the Germans that even cited evidences that Amanullah Shah of Afghanistan was poised to take on the mantle and that supporters in the sub continent felt a strong affinity for the Caliph (the point of some Afridis even crossing British lines to defend the Ottomon Caliphate).

My point was that summary declarations of Caliphate in the heat of war and revolution, and by reactionary forces that are a product of their environment did not suddenly trigger a button in the heads of 1.5 billions Muslims to suddenly act violent like Emerson alleges would happen if a proto state was created.


This is why I always oppose the political role of Islam. Islam unifies us spiritually but it can never unify Muslims politically or economically even not culturally or socially. Diversity is such a big reality from Morocco to Indonesia that one factor of religion cannot paint it in one green or black color.

Diversity is a fact of life, but one thing that is in common in all the surveys Pew, UM, etc is that Muslims as a kinship group identify cross cultural issues as important (Chechnya, Bosnia, Palestine).

Even after the death of the Prophet, there were political differences and Ali had to fight Ayesha and Umayayds against Abbasids etc otherwise we would have one caliphate till today.

Not so. Brits had a Kingship over the 13 colonies and then the 13 colonies created a Presidency instead in the executive branch. This did not negate or cause the immediate crumbling of the office of the British monarch. Even within the Prophet's life he had to deal with competitor tribals like Musaylamah Al Kadhaab who was defeated after his passing. Such is the way of the world.

Ayesha and Ali's political dispute centered around the concept of securing justice for the killed (Uthman) versus Ali's approach of blanket amnesty for unity. Both points have validity. In many developing nations, e.g. Libya, there have been wars and conflicts and revolutions. In many instances people have wanted justice and revenge and others have sought blanket amnesties to reorganize the society and bring peace and prosperity. For example the family of one former Libyan military officer acknowledged to me that crimes were done on a daily basis by Gaddafi's military and that the lay people thought Gaddafi was forever and would never fall. He understands that many seek vengeance now for the crimes done by the military against even just anti regime (non Islamic) forces. Unfortunately this has put a large segment of the Libyan population at odds with each other and created internal strife. One might argue that various military officials should face the world court... others might argue that its best to unite the factions and rebuilt.

Or for instance Dostum killed many people (especially Pashtuns). There are Pashtuns that rightfully want justice served and him trialed as a war criminal. Yet Karzai and Ghani and others have said that the death and destruction that will come out of seeking that justice will create even more injustice. In some way one might say Malalai Joya has staked out Ayesha's position of demanding pure justice against the warlords but Karzai has staked out Ali's equivalent position of trying to keep the ship (Afghanistan) afloat.

Caliphate was only used as guise for grabbing power and legitimizing their political acts.

It depends, for instance Ahmad Shah Abdali, our Baba recognized it and sought their assistance against Qing dynasty China for the Uighars predecessors. This is validated in letters he sent to the Ottomon court. This means that the Caliphate was more than simply a ceremonial position and that it played an important regional role in the Muslim world. But admittedly, cultural friction (e.g. Turk versus Arab) were very very hard to overcome with ideology alone.

I do not know whether in Quran or authentic Hadith there is any proof of the existence of the institution of Caliphate in Islam.

Ahmad on the Abdullah bin Omar's authority narrated that the Prophet said if there is a plurality of Muslims they should select a leader amongst themselves in Bukhari. The behavior of the Rashidun Caliphs is paramount to understanding the design of Islamic meritocracy and leadership. Just as the Supreme Courts and congressional edicts embody the execution of the constitution, so too does Islamic jurisprudence refer to example and predecessor action regarding how laws are fleshed out and interpreted (sometimes in multiple ways by varying companions).

x

[DSM0305]

lol, 25fake75fake got castrated.