Secularism and openness is the way to go for the Muslim World

[Toramana]

Let us discuss this.

[کیش]

Explain what you mean further about what secular is and what openness is.

[tor_khan]

Most of the governance in the Muslim world, is arguably, secular. Openness means different things to different people. If you mean transparent government then that varies. Simply put, even the most liberal democracies will attempt to cover up what they don't want the public to see.

[Khostai]

Most of the governance in the Muslim world, is arguably, secular. Openness means different things to different people. If you mean transparent government then that varies. Simply put, even the most liberal democracies will attempt to cover up what they don't want the public to see.

Most of muslim countries have Islam as a state religion with a lot of Islamic laws that didn't change in centuries, just becuase you see on the surface people in western cloths doesn't mean they are secular. They actualy mix a lot.
Bigest Example is Lebanon.
A lot say that it is the most liberal and progressive country in middel east. But it is just a sham.
They have mixed religion with state politics a lot, you can't even have a sertane politiacl job if you are not religious. This is not secularism. Also different religious people can't even marry with each other.....

[Khostai]

Muslim countries had a chance to secularise in the 60-80s, but the west prevented that and have brainwashed people to follow the extremist and jihadist, becuase they know that those will put the region backward and weak so that they can take advantage of them, like they do it now.
I gues we have to wait another 50-100 years and develope secual toughts and culture to see real secularisation in muslim countries, and not the fake ones that most of them have now.

[tor_khan]

Most of muslim countries have Islam as a state religion with a lot of Islamic laws that didn't change in centuries, just becuase you see on the surface people in western cloths doesn't mean they are secular. They actualy mix a lot.
Bigest Example is Lebanon.
A lot say that it is the most liberal and progressive country in middel east. But it is just a sham.
They have mixed religion with state politics a lot, you can't even have a sertane politiacl job if you are not religious. This is not secularism. Also different religious people can't even marry with each other.....

The problem is even the backbone of laws that you might call 'secular' (take Western Europe as the example) is rooted in an older Judeo-Christian tradition and you could go on arguing that nothing is secular.

Specifically in the Muslim world, where there is a diluted approach, societies are by-and-large left to define their social codes, police their own morality, pay their own Islamic dues etc. You are not going to get arrested in Pakistan for not being religious - the state and the indvidual can believe whatever they want.

The conflict comes when people (sometimes 'disorganised' mobs) use Islam to justifiy their actions that limit someone else's freedoms. That appears to happen frequently, just less so on the state level which generally cares only if you propogate actions or ideas that may be considered treasonous or anti-state. I'm sure there are expections, but in general the state acts for other interests and Islam is not at the core. I'd say therefore, that most governments in the Muslim world, are largely secular.

[Khostai]

The problem is even the backbone of laws that you might call 'secular' (take Western Europe as the example) is rooted in an older Judeo-Christian tradition and you could go on arguing that nothing is secular.

Specifically in the Muslim world, where there is a diluted approach, societies are by-and-large left to define their social codes, police their own morality, pay their own Islamic dues etc. You are not going to get arrested in Pakistan for not being religious - the state and the indvidual can believe whatever they want.

The conflict comes when people (sometimes 'disorganised' mobs) use Islam to justifiy their actions that limit someone else's freedoms. That appears to happen frequently, just less so on the state level which generally cares only if you propogate actions or ideas that may be considered treasonous or anti-state. I'm sure there are expections, but in general the state acts for other interests and Islam is not at the core. I'd say therefore, that most governments in the Muslim world, are largely secular.

Pakistan has death penalty if you claim you are atheist or that you no longer are a muslim, the same with other major so called "secular"muslim countries, even in Indonesia and malesia the goverment is implementing religious laws, and I don't mean laws again murder or stealing, but also against inproper clouths marriage arangements and divorce, are largly ruled by Islamic law.

The fact tha those Islamic mobs can pressure other people with there vieuw of Islam is the proof that the goverment mainly thinks in religious view and see it as a good thing and doesn't act against it.

[Khostai]

And by the way claiming that the precent day muslim countries are secular is the same as claiming that Saudi Arabia has the proper Shariah in there country.

[Da Bannu Mazdigar]

Pakistan has death penalty if you claim you are atheist or that you no longer are a muslim, the same with other major so called "secular"muslim countries, even in Indonesia and malesia the goverment is implementing religious laws, and I don't mean laws again murder or stealing, but also against inproper clouths marriage arangements and divorce, are largly ruled by Islamic law.

The fact tha those Islamic mobs can pressure other people with there vieuw of Islam is the proof that the goverment mainly thinks in religious view and see it as a good thing and doesn't act against it.

Not really,Only for blesphemy you will be sentenced to death.

There are thousands of Atheists(Born muslims) in Pakistan

take the example of pervez hoodbhoy.Pakistani majority of laws are still secular with only a addition of certain laws from islam

[Khostai]

Not really,Only for blesphemy you will be sentenced to death.

There are thousands of Atheists(Born muslims) in Pakistan

take the example of pervez hoodbhoy.Pakistani majority of laws are still secular with only a addition of certain laws from islam

Not being a muslim anymore is blasphamy and you will be beheaded, since the 70s Pakistan is becoming more and more religious......not only the people but also the state.

[Da Bannu Mazdigar]

Not being a muslim anymore is blasphamy and you will be beheaded, since the 70s Pakistan is becoming more and more religious......not only the people but also the state.

Bill was proposed 7-8years earlier but is not even approved yet.

Gallup survey mention 2% Atheist in Pakistan though i am sure the numbers are not this high.But are surely atleast close to a million.

As per Gallup survey out of 2700 People,54 of them reported to be atheists

http://www.dawn.com/news/744896/faith-in-decline

[Herat]

Toramana, the trouble is that what you likely mean by "secularism", which is in reality the totality of an ensemble of social, economic and political institutions and behavioral patterns that would more aptly be called western civilization, is not the effect but rather the cause of that political state of affairs known as separation of state and church. The secular western states of today are the culminations of several centuries worth of historical development, going back all the way to that pivotal era known as the enlightenment (a wonderful partial account of this age which I recommend is volumes 5 and onward of Will Durant's "The Story of Civilization").

I am also of the opinion that the dogmatic religions furnish nothing desirable (especially of economic/political value) except perhaps as a force for social cohesion but unfortunately, there is no magic talisman that will change the states from the Islamic world into anything resembling England any time soon. But there does seem to exist a magic talisman for further radicalizing a population, that talisman is war, the magic is magnified especially in the case of a foreign occupation.

[randolph85]

Secularism is a jewish-christian construct which was easy for these people to transition to because jews don't believe in hell and christians believe that that belief in christ without following any religious laws was enough to be saved. Islam does away with that nonsense and is eminent in personal and public life in an ideal Islamic environment. Secular "Muslims" are lying to themselves and lying against Islam.

[Khostai]

Secularism is a jewish-christian construct which was easy for these people to transition to because jews don't believe in hell and christians believe that that belief in christ without following any religious laws was enough to be saved. Islam does away with that nonsense and is eminent in personal and public life in an ideal Islamic environment. Secular "Muslims" are lying to themselves and lying against Islam.

I think you need to read European history again, it was not easy, it was necessary, due to the sectarian violence between Protestants and Katholics, secularism was needed, secualrism for jews meant more religious freedom.

The sectarian violence in muslim world and abuse of religion for personal gains will also be the treagor to secularise.

[25tajik75pashtun]

Secularization for sunnis will be a very difficult process, there is just too much leeway to slip back into fundamentalism when things don't work out not to mention the quran is the direct word of allah with instructions in it on how to run a society so it will be quite hard to convince people that man-made laws are more preferable compared to something supposedly divine.