Religious turmoil in AFG and the Middle East

[tuomittuelämään]

I have opened this thread with the express intent of soliciting the views of BarakzaiAbdali but would, of course, be interested in anyone's views on the subject.

In a recent thread where Barakzai counters some statements I made, he touched on the fact that the regions where Islam plays a predominant role in social life, politics and culture are regions that are "awash in religious turmoil". Strangely enough as he continues, the theme of all his thoughts and assessments seem to drift away from this and focus primarily if not solely on various political factors at work in these regions and not on the religious part of the equation.

Barakzai, While I wholeheartedly agree with the political assessments you put forth in that thread, given your obvious level of insight and intellect, I find it disappointing that you did not address the other major factor at work in these regions and the factor that is elusive and all but absent in most of the world today; Perhaps even the core and root cause of the vast majority of the very turmoil you speak of: Religion... Throughout the thread you touch on the neo-colonialist foreign policies of Western powerhouses and their covert (and sometimes not so covert) financial support of individuals, political parties and regimes that represent a minority faction of a given populace and whose policies are in stark contrast to the desires and sensibilities of the overwhelming majority but despite this are bankrolled in the name of Western interests abroad. You touched on a few other vitally important topics relevant to these regions. Yet, you avoid addressing the very subject that is the driving force behind the social structures and cultures in these regions. The unseen hands of Western powerhouses are undeniably dirty but they aren't the only factor in the equation.

I invite Barakzai, Badlun and anyone else with a strong, definitive opinion on the matter to share it here. Let's discuss religion. How do you feel that it plays a role in the misery of the general populace, political corruption, small scale wars and bloody local conflicts, rigid limitations on basic human liberties and individual rights, local understandings of "law" and "justice", etc. I will try to refrain from injecting much as I am merely an observer on these cultures. My only interest lies in the conviction that despite cultural and ethnic differences, we all share a common humanity and I believe at our raw core, have far more in common than we do differences between us and I believe that religion creates, maintains and fuels perceived differences (along with unnecessary conflicts on every conceivable level). And despite neo-colonial exploitation via foreign policy and under the table corruption between nations, I believe that the removal of the religious equation would greatly simplify the obstacles that certain regions face. Thanks in advance for your contribution.

[BarakzaiAbdali]

I have opened this thread with the express intent of soliciting the views of BarakzaiAbdali but would, of course, be interested in anyone's views on the subject.

In a recent thread where Barakzai counters some statements I made, he touched on the fact that the regions where Islam plays a predominant role in social life, politics and culture are regions that are "awash in religious turmoil". Strangely enough as he continues, the theme of all his thoughts and assessments seem to drift away from this and focus primarily if not solely on various political factors at work in these regions and not on the religious part of the equation.

Barakzai, While I wholeheartedly agree with the political assessments you put forth in that thread, given your obvious level of insight and intellect, I find it disappointing that you did not address the other major factor at work in these regions and the factor that is elusive and all but absent in most of the world today; Perhaps even the core and root cause of the vast majority of the very turmoil you speak of: Religion... Throughout the thread you touch on the neo-colonialist foreign policies of Western powerhouses and their covert (and sometimes not so covert) financial support of individuals, political parties and regimes that represent a minority faction of a given populace and whose policies are in stark contrast to the desires and sensibilities of the overwhelming majority but despite this are bankrolled in the name of Western interests abroad. You touched on a few other vitally important topics relevant to these regions. Yet, you avoid addressing the very subject that is the driving force behind the social structures and cultures in these regions. The unseen hands of Western powerhouses are undeniably dirty but they aren't the only factor in the equation.

I invite Barakzai, Badlun and anyone else with a strong, definitive opinion on the matter to share it here. Let's discuss religion. How do you feel that it plays a role in the misery of the general populace, political corruption, small scale wars and bloody local conflicts, rigid limitations on basic human liberties and individual rights, local understandings of "law" and "justice", etc. I will try to refrain from injecting much as I am merely an observer on these cultures. My only interest lies in the conviction that despite cultural and ethnic differences, we all share a common humanity and I believe at our raw core, have far more in common than we do differences between us and I believe that religion creates, maintains and fuels perceived differences (along with unnecessary conflicts on every conceivable level). And despite neo-colonial exploitation via foreign policy and under the table corruption between nations, I believe that the removal of the religious equation would greatly simplify the obstacles that certain regions face. Thanks in advance for your contribution.

John Lennon once sang, in his most famous of songs, "Imagine no religion... imagine all the people... living for today."

I think he was simplifying things a bit too much.

My issue with this discussion with others is the blatant disregard for confounding.... i.e. factors that appear to play a role but may not.

For instance, people who smoke may be the same people who like to drink. So if a study is done, drinking is a confounder regarding risk factors for lung cancer.

In this same vein - human behavior, biological nature forcing us to propopagate our own genetic identities and memes, etc are the real underlying catalysts and the rest are just confounding factors.

If human beings did not have religion to fight over, as we see in the American civil war with its hundreds of thousands of deaths - they might fight over manner of subgovernance (both the north and south were theoretically secular democracies), over a plot of land, over a nationalistic agenda, etc.

I think Robert Pape identifies this phenomena regarding the religious nature of the current conflict"

Robert Pape - Cutting the Fuse: The Explosion of Suicide Terrorism and How to Stop It (3 of 4) - YouTube

Start at 3:44.

The point here is that isms, and religionism in general plays a galvanizing role in resistance and reactionary movements. This is no different than the the socialism and communism of Guevara which became the ideological language of resistance of Latin America.

There are rich Muslims and poor Muslims, rich Hindus and poor Hindus, rich Christians and poor ones etc.

Take for instance Orthodox Christian East Ukraine, Nepal, Rural India, and parts of generall now atheist or Buddhist China. Poverty and backwards actions relative to the current moral standard are not monopolized by Muslims. Or take for instance the disparate tribes of Africa whose ancestory and location dominates their efforts and wars between one another.

Some folks in the region were already at angst with each other before the monotheistic religions even came into the picture.

What of the decimation of the local populations by the ancient Aryans long before our time?

In some instances, local customs in complete contradiction to Islam are some of the backwards identity traits Western society laments (e.g. giving a woman over to the enemy tribe for the sake of peace, taking a life of another non involved tribal member for the slight dealt by a member of that tribe).

Otherwise, look at the war and misery Europeans inflicted upon one another for centuries until the more recently. Even then, we still see the stark division between the Slavic states and the Americo-European confederacy (e.g. Yugoslavia and Russia vs America, Ukrainian misery and conflict).

The confounding factors in the Muslim world are a set of suzerainty states carved out of the former autonomous empires are plugged into a world economic game and set of political constructs that ensure perpetual servitude.

It is not simply me that is alluding to this, but the policy analyst and influential thinker Brzezinski wrote:

"In brief, for the United States, Eurasian geostrategy involves the purposeful management of geostrategically dynamic states and the careful handling of geopolitically catalytic states, in keeping with the twin interests of America in the short-term: preservation of its unique global power and in the long-run transformation of it into increasingly institutionalized global cooperation. To put it in a terminology that hearkens back to the more brutal age of ancient empires, the three grand imperatives of imperial geostrategy are to prevent collusion and maintain security dependence among the vassals, to keep tributaries pliant and protected, and to keep the barbarians from coming together."

Therefore, I deduce that there are INTERNAL reasons, as you have alluded to that are behind the failing modern states occupying parts of the world under previous empires of the Muslim world.

But these internal reasons have nothing to do with local culture, custom, and religion... for even "barbarians" like Genghis built civilized super powers.

Rather, the peoples have decided to abide by the rules set by others and therefore diminished access to immeasurable wealth, living space, and resources by not reestablishing some semblance of a cooperative.

[BarakzaiAbdali]

Additionally, taking the temporal success at a particular time point as a measure of superiority or inferiority or to elucidate successful traits or failing ones (e.g. secular capitalism vs religionism vs monarchism, etc) may have some value, but when done incorrectly it leads to massive hubris and disrespect for history of both existing and past power.

For instance, is the British parliamentarian system inherently inferior to the American congressional constitutional system because Britain is but a shell of her former self?

What of the fact that various powers utilized redesigns of past technology developed by predecessors to achieve their gains? For instance, the Romans advanced upon the Alexander's phalanx, which was actually older than Alexander. I would venture to say that Julius Caesar, when he visited Alexander's tomb, clearly understood this concept of the march forward of history and the lack of perpetuity of any particular system due to a multitude of influences.

[Karachi]

I have opened this thread with the express intent of soliciting the views of BarakzaiAbdali but would, of course, be interested in anyone's views on the subject.

In a recent thread where Barakzai counters some statements I made, he touched on the fact that the regions where Islam plays a predominant role in social life, politics and culture are regions that are "awash in religious turmoil". Strangely enough as he continues, the theme of all his thoughts and assessments seem to drift away from this and focus primarily if not solely on various political factors at work in these regions and not on the religious part of the equation.

Barakzai, While I wholeheartedly agree with the political assessments you put forth in that thread, given your obvious level of insight and intellect, I find it disappointing that you did not address the other major factor at work in these regions and the factor that is elusive and all but absent in most of the world today; Perhaps even the core and root cause of the vast majority of the very turmoil you speak of: Religion... Throughout the thread you touch on the neo-colonialist foreign policies of Western powerhouses and their covert (and sometimes not so covert) financial support of individuals, political parties and regimes that represent a minority faction of a given populace and whose policies are in stark contrast to the desires and sensibilities of the overwhelming majority but despite this are bankrolled in the name of Western interests abroad. You touched on a few other vitally important topics relevant to these regions. Yet, you avoid addressing the very subject that is the driving force behind the social structures and cultures in these regions. The unseen hands of Western powerhouses are undeniably dirty but they aren't the only factor in the equation.

I invite Barakzai, Badlun and anyone else with a strong, definitive opinion on the matter to share it here. Let's discuss religion. How do you feel that it plays a role in the misery of the general populace, political corruption, small scale wars and bloody local conflicts, rigid limitations on basic human liberties and individual rights, local understandings of "law" and "justice", etc. I will try to refrain from injecting much as I am merely an observer on these cultures. My only interest lies in the conviction that despite cultural and ethnic differences, we all share a common humanity and I believe at our raw core, have far more in common than we do differences between us and I believe that religion creates, maintains and fuels perceived differences (along with unnecessary conflicts on every conceivable level). And despite neo-colonial exploitation via foreign policy and under the table corruption between nations, I believe that the removal of the religious equation would greatly simplify the obstacles that certain regions face. Thanks in advance for your contribution.

Religion cannot be blamed for the turmoil in the muslim world, simply because most of those so called muslims are not even following Islam and Islamic teachings, this is a fact no one can deny. Hardly anyone follows Islam in it's true sense

The reasons of chaos and turmoil in the muslim world are many. One reason I will give is that muslims for some reason are very emotional, they often act without thinking of the future consequences. Of course there are non muslims who act like this too, but I think this is a big problem among muslims that we really need to address. We get emotional and start fighting with each other even over the smallest of Issues. This behavior to me suggests, that we are actually very disconnected with our religion, because Islam clearly teaches us to have control over our Nafs and emotions, yet we for the most part completely act opposite this. The is one big reason out of the many many many other reasons. We have to sit down and address all the turmoil/chaos issues, yet we are not even doing that

[tuomittuelämään]

One reason I will give is that muslims for some reason are very emotional, they often act without thinking of the future consequences. Of course there are non muslims who act like this too, but I think this is a big problem among muslims that we really need to address. We get emotional and start fighting with each other even over the smallest of Issues.

I've made this observation early on. Do you have any idea why this seems to be so prevalent across the various ethnic groups and cultures? Could education or maybe cultural understanding of what constitutes an appropriate response be a factor?

[Karachi]

I've made this observation early on. Do you have any idea why this seems to be so prevalent across the various ethnic groups and cultures? Could education or maybe cultural understanding of what constitutes an appropriate response be a factor?

it has to do with lots of things, being hot tampered, lack of education, lack of respect for the other etc.... Again, if we were true muslims, we wouldn't have this issue, because Quran and Sunnah would have trained us to follow the way of our prophet, who was very calm in most situations, even dealing with enemy's.

[Badlun]

The problem in Muslim world is not religion(Islam) but Islamism. Fundamentals of Islam and spiritual as well as moral aspects of Islam like Christianity are positive and constructive things but when you mix culture, politics, economics, education, philosophy etc with Islam, then the real problem arises.

What is the issue in Afghanistan and Pakistan? Taliban. Al Qaeda is issue in Yemen and Muslim Africa. Ikhwans is a big issue in Egypt. Political Islam is damaging the religion of Islam.

Muslims are also fatalists and preparing more for the life after death than this life. Look at Tableeghi Jamaat. their only concern is grave and paradise.

Apart from Islamism, the lack of democracy is another issue in Muslim world. Except few democracies . almost all other Muslim countries are run by dictators. Qaddafi was thrown after 42 years. Look at Mubarak , Saddam and Assad, and others. Saudi Monarch leaves when he dies. Lack of democracy entails in many issues like women rights. Majority of Muslim women are only active in kitchen or bed. (On the lighter side even in bed they are passive).

[randolph85]

The problem in Muslim world is not religion(Islam) but Islamism. Fundamentals of Islam and spiritual as well as moral aspects of Islam like Christianity are positive and constructive things but when you mix culture, politics, economics, education, philosophy etc with Islam, then the real problem arises.

What is the issue in Afghanistan and Pakistan? Taliban. Al Qaeda is issue in Yemen and Muslim Africa. Ikhwans is a big issue in Egypt. Political Islam is damaging the religion of Islam.

Muslims are also fatalists and preparing more for the life after death than this life. Look at Tableeghi Jamaat. their only concern is grave and paradise.

Apart from Islamism, the lack of democracy is another issue in Muslim world. Except few democracies . almost all other Muslim countries are run by dictators. Qaddafi was thrown after 42 years. Look at Mubarak , Saddam and Assad, and others. Saudi Monarch leaves when he dies. Lack of democracy entails in many issues like women rights. Majority of Muslim women are only active in kitchen or bed. (On the lighter side even in bed they are passive).

dude shut the hell up. political islam is islam.

culture, politics, economics, education, and philosophy are all staples of the Quran.

anyone who denies this is a kafir, plain and simple.



if you want to know the best of islam and the bright minds it has produced, look no further than brothers like barakzai. if you want to see the apologist kafirs who's arguments have been demolished time and time again on this forum, we have badlun. guy is like an nes cartridge that wouldn't work so you had to turn it side wards and blow into it repeatedly and stick it back into the console but it still wouldn't work.

[khushal]

I believe that the removal of the religious equation would greatly simplify the obstacles that certain regions face.

Isn't that what Stalin and Lenin thought.

[tuomittuelämään]

Isn't that what Stalin and Lenin thought.

Haven't had time to visit this forum in a couple days... Yes, you are correct but their reaction or rather "solution" to this was drastically different from anything that I would support. Not everyone holding oppositional views to religion is an authoritarian leftist fanatic willing to employ state power up to mass-murder and genocide in order to enforce their utopian ideology.

Unlike a majority of idealists, while my core ideas and views rarely or never change, I'm flexible in my approach and reject any solutions that involve direct force or militant action (excluding action against an oppressive state/governmental regime), particularly against the people themselves. History has proven the effectiveness of these "solutions" and ironically these tactics do little or nothing in terms of actually solving a problem. Rather, the only purpose they seem to serve outside of fueling the egos and sick ambitions of tyrants and consolidating state authority is the inciting of fear into common people with the ultimate goal of crippling any potential uprisings or revolutions via intimidation. The people's collective fear to act against a regime should never be confused with state victory. The problem has not even been properly addressed in those situations, only put on a temporary hiatus giving the delusional butchers in charge a false sense of triumph.

[khushal]

Haven't had time to visit this forum in a couple days... Yes, you are correct but their reaction or rather "solution" to this was drastically different from anything that I would support. Not everyone holding oppositional views to religion is an authoritarian leftist fanatic willing to employ state power up to mass-murder and genocide in order to enforce their utopian ideology.

Unlike a majority of idealists, while my core ideas and views rarely or never change, I'm flexible in my approach and reject any solutions that involve direct force or militant action (excluding action against an oppressive state/governmental regime), particularly against the people themselves. History has proven the effectiveness of these "solutions" and ironically these tactics do little or nothing in terms of actually solving a problem. Rather, the only purpose they seem to serve outside of fueling the egos and sick ambitions of tyrants and consolidating state authority is the inciting of fear into common people with the ultimate goal of crippling any potential uprisings or revolutions via intimidation. The people's collective fear to act against a regime should never be confused with state victory. The problem has not even been properly addressed in those situations, only put on a temporary hiatus giving the delusional butchers in charge a false sense of triumph.

Jeffersons thinking was that small government is the best prevention to tyranny. The bigger the government, the bigger the danger. It is up to the people if they want religion or not. To ensure this right, government must be small to ensure they don't have the capacity to interfere.

What your posts tell me is that you don't trust your fellow man/woman from making rational decisions on their own behalf and that you want to make "rational" decisions for them. That you know better than them what is good for them. This is a tyrannical way of thinking.

The problem in the middle east is that all governments are tyrannical dictators and tyrannical monarchies who prevent people from making their own decisions. I don't have to tell you who is giving life support to those tyrannies.

[HalloIsBack]

dude shut the hell up. political islam is islam.

culture, politics, economics, education, and philosophy are all staples of the Quran.

anyone who denies this is a kafir, plain and simple.



if you want to know the best of islam and the bright minds it has produced, look no further than brothers like barakzai. if you want to see the apologist kafirs who's arguments have been demolished time and time again on this forum, we have badlun. guy is like an nes cartridge that wouldn't work so you had to turn it side wards and blow into it repeatedly and stick it back into the console but it still wouldn't work.

i though only allah has the right to decide who is kafir and who is not