Is a woman's voice part of Awrah? (Split Discussion)

[MeemWawMeemNoon]

People please learn Islamic etiquette and stop making things up. We can hear the voices of females when they are reciting, there must be a partition however.

Just don't tell us who the female voices are. Give them numbers, this will make it better.

If Sangar is insisting otherwise, then it is his "choice," not an "Islamic" injunction.

[Feroza_Banu]

^i thought so too... otherwise there wouldn't be any female Quran recitation competition held anywhere in the world.

[شمله ور خراساني]

According to Pashtun culture it might be wrong, but Islamically we can hear the voice of women reciting the Quran. Looking at them while they recite is wrong, that is Islamic.

You are Qadiani, what do you know?

[Feroza_Banu]

i take that back...

source: sunnipath.com

Walaikum assalam,
It is permitted for them to do so if it is solely in the presence of women, in such a manner that strange men would not be able to hear it, and no other impermissible matter was associated with it.
It is not permitted for men to listen to the singing or recitation of strange (non-mahram) women, whether it is with or without the fear of fitna. It does not matter whether this takes place from behind a screen, a recording, or otherwise, because it is established in the primary texts that a woman's voice can lead to fitna. As such, it may not be used in ways that could be expected to lead to it.
As for talking to someone of the opposite gender, if there is a reasonable need, it is permitted to the extent of the reasonable need, and disliked otherwise.
Wassalam,
Faraz Rabbani.

[MeemWawMeemNoon]

You are Qadiani, what do you know?

You know Sangar, you are officially on my "ignore" list. I thought I could love you like my own brother, but you always resort to an unprofessional way.

As you wish!

One last thing (this will be my last comment towards you): I love you a lot and I wish you happiness and closeness to Allah Jalla Shanuhu.

[MeemWawMeemNoon]

i take that back...

source: sunnipath.com

Walaikum assalam,
It is permitted for them to do so if it is solely in the presence of women, in such a manner that strange men would not be able to hear it, and no other impermissible matter was associated with it.
It is not permitted for men to listen to the singing or recitation of strange (non-mahram) women, whether it is with or without the fear of fitna. It does not matter whether this takes place from behind a screen, a recording, or otherwise, because it is established in the primary texts that a woman's voice can lead to fitna. As such, it may not be used in ways that could be expected to lead to it.

That is one opinion.

How could there be fitna, when we don't know who the sister is and are only voting for the number?

This is extremism.

What is worst, discussing with the opposite gender continuously over the net or hearing someone recite Quran whilst we don't know who she is?

[MeemWawMeemNoon]

so Sangar was right.

and MWMN come on we are all brothers here. We have to work on getting along.

Sangar is not right. We hear women all the time. What if we hear a sister reciting while we don't know who she is?

[Roshina]

i take that back...

source: sunnipath.com

Walaikum assalam,
It is permitted for them to do so if it is solely in the presence of women, in such a manner that strange men would not be able to hear it, and no other impermissible matter was associated with it.
It is not permitted for men to listen to the singing or recitation of strange (non-mahram) women, whether it is with or without the fear of fitna. It does not matter whether this takes place from behind a screen, a recording, or otherwise, because it is established in the primary texts that a woman's voice can lead to fitna. As such, it may not be used in ways that could be expected to lead to it.
As for talking to someone of the opposite gender, if there is a reasonable need, it is permitted to the extent of the reasonable need, and disliked otherwise.
Wassalam,
Faraz Rabbani.

We shouldn't let a certain group of people define modesty, etc. for us. There's much more to it than what one certain group of interpreters might have concluded. Why limit ourselves to them only when Islam is much wider, more universal than that?

That's to say, you should study this more in-depth and see what other scholars have to say about this, not just those of sunni-path.com and Islam-qa.com...

... unless you, too, believe that all those who disagree with your favorite sources are just downright wrong.

Besides, can you not refute their claims about how a woman's voice leads to fitna? I mean, why? And are ALL women's voices that hot and seductive? Mind you, many men have extremely hot voices, too. Why should we have to hear their voice when that, too, might lead to fitnah?

[MeemWawMeemNoon]

If people only knew the double standard world they are living in.

I am not here to encourage sisters to expose their voices, however, the logic used to prevent them is wrong.

[Feroza_Banu]

We shouldn't let a certain group of people define modesty, etc. for us. There's much more to it than what one certain group of interpreters might have concluded. Why limit ourselves to them only when Islam is much wider, more universal than that?

That's to say, you should study this more in-depth and see what other scholars have to say about this, not just those of sunni-path.com and Islam-qa.com...

... unless you, too, believe that all those who disagree with your favorite sources are just downright wrong.

Besides, can you not refute their claims about how a woman's voice leads to fitna? I mean, why? And are ALL women's voices that hot and seductive? Mind you, many men have extremely hot voices, too. Why should we have to hear their voice when that, too, might lead to fitnah?

the reality is ... dear... that men get turned on by anything related to women. their brain does not work like a woman's brain. our idea of intimacy starts from our hearts and emotions and theirs start... oh well... i don't wanna go too deep in detail about this. you can talk about women's equality but here it doesn't apply because Allah swt has made us very different from men. ... their brain functions differently...

i am sure there are difference of opinion and i will gladly read it and analyze the sources if you would post it here... i found one source can u find another please... thank you

[Roshina]

In our culture we don't expose our woman. Maybe that is why.

Whoooaa, man!! My dear brother, you have GOT to be kidding yourself here!

What does a woman reciting the Quran in public have to do with "exposing" herself?!

It'd be another thing if the woman was wearing what Pukhtuns would consider an indecent outfit, was making indecent moves and gestures, and/or was intentionally saying something in an artificial voice that was bound to be considered suggestive, but that's not what we're promoting here at ALL.

And thank you, but I myself would never want myself "exposed" to the world because I love myself, my family, and my people too much to ever even opt for such "exposure."

So, yeah, clean up your thoughts because saying that it's double standards to forbid men from hearing women reciting the Quran but allowing women to hear men reciting the Quran has NOTHING to do with "exposing" women.

It's not our fault that some men have such perverted ideologies that EVERYTHING about a woman -- here mere existence, even! -- supposedly leads to what they've termed fitnah! Such men need to have cleaner minds and be reminded that they're no one to define what a good/attractive voice is, and if they can define it, then women, too, can define for themselves what a good/attractive voice is.

They just like to give such a perverted view divine legitimacy, so the best they can do is use an Arabic term ("finthah" here) and declare it haraam.

[MeemWawMeemNoon]

What I really get upset by and I really get frustrated with, is that we complain how our women are oppressed. This thread is the perfect example.

Allah Ta'ala has said it clearly that women should cover themselves. How many here do it who are following the fatwah that women's reciting should not be heard? Be honest. This is a clear injunction that women should cover themselves. Reciting Quran out of the sight of men is perfectly fine. There is nothing wrong with it.

From now on if I hear any female member complaining about how Pashtun women this and Pashtun women that they will hear it from me.

The reason why you women are oppressed is the fact that you don't know Islam or you pick and choose.

Don't be affraid of any "man" be afraid of your Creator and respect your husband. Educate yourself about Islam for Allah's sake.

Now do we see why Pashtun women are oppressed and are being taken advantage of? May Allah protect us from stupid scholars who are the cause of this.

[Feroza_Banu]

^lol... don't get too emotional. i just presented an opinion. u go ahead present other opinion and sources. it is perfectly fine. at least i presented something... where is ur proof of what u say.

[MeemWawMeemNoon]

Sister, did I say anything wrong in the previous post?

I am not emotional, I just dislike people using Islam when it is convenient and when it serves a purpose and then discarding it like a dirty rag.

Did I say anything wrong in the previous post, dearest sister?

[Roshina]

the reality is ... dear... that men get turned on by anything related to women. their brain does not work like a woman's brain. our idea of intimacy starts from our hearts and emotions and theirs start... oh well... i don't wanna go too deep in detail about this. you can talk about women's equality but here it doesn't apply because Allah swt has made us very different from men. ... their brain functions differently...

i am sure there are difference of opinion and i will gladly read it and analyze the sources if you would post it here... i found one source can u find another please... thank you

That's not the reality, actually, guley. We're only told that so that we continue suppressing our everything more and more. Men do not get turned on by EVERY woman's voice. Similarly, women don't get turned on by ALL men's voice.

Some men have extremely attractive voice, and so do so women women. Women are no dolls that they don't get turned on by seeing or hearing something beautiful. I'm sorry, but really, we're no dolls. We're SUPPOSED to be dolls because we are, well, "aurah" (purdah, something to be hidden). Some claim it's because women are precious beings. But that's one side of the story, that's one interpretation of aurah and why women should be kept hidden. Another interpretation of the belief could be that they're just not supposed to have any thoughts, feelings, emotions, and IF/when they do, they may not express them while men can totally express theirs.

This has nothing to do with equality. Equality is a whole different issue and goes far beyond a mere letting women recite the Quran in front of both women and men. However, if you wanna talk about it, I'll be honored to have a discussion about this, guely. But remember that equality doens't require for us to be the same; we don't have to have the same bodies, minds, voices, etc. in order to be equal or be given equal rights. I consider it unjust to say that women are not allowed to speak, talk, recite anything in front of women while MEN can do that. Why?

As far as sources are concerned, what exactly is the evidence given by those who forbid women from speaking/singing/reciting the Quran in public? All they say is, "There's no evidence that the Prophet said women can recite the Quran in public." OR the the "evidence" they give has to do with DEFINING certain Quranic concepts, like modesty and zeenah. And guess what -- guess when these terms were defined and by whom: They were defined by the scholars of the 8th - 10th centuries. If these terms are universal and indeed Islamic and if Islam is indeed NOT a monopoly, then Muslims MUST acknowledge the fact that concepts and practices evolve with time. Now, if Islam had specifically defined these concepts for us, that'd be a different story. But it never defined them; Muslim scholars did.

And why should I listen to only ONE side of the argument and not the others? Why should I accept only ONE interpretation of what modesty, aurah, zeenah, etc. are while ignoring all the others?

Now, that brings me to say . . . It's not like me to say, "Person A said that women CAN recite the Quran in public, so that means it's allowed! You all should accept this view, too, because this is the correct view." So I find myself in an uncomfortable situation when I'm requested to give source for a different point of view. The reason is, I like to read/hear what's there, ponder it for a while, and then refute it if possible. If *I* can refute it (and I'm no one), then so can scholars and other great people. I don't live in the 8th century; I live in a century where it's MANDATORY for women to speak up, for women to give lectures, for women to stand up for themselves because if they don't do it, no one else is gonna do it for them.

What I mean by saying the above is this: When you read/hear something like this, ask yourself, "Why." When someone tries to explain it to you and give you reasons for why it's the case (example - Question: Why can't women recite the Quran in public? Answer: Because men might get turned on.), then understand that they're interpreting a certain concept. And when it becomes interpretation, it means it can be refuted or proven false; it also means that's not the only possible interpretation and there are many more.

Another thing is this: We read recommendations /naseehah in the Quran, and some of our interpreters conclude them to be "fard"! Sorry, but that's not how the Quran and interpretation works (please, I'm NOT saying I can interpret the Quran or that I'm better than anyone else; I'm not. But I'm only saying that this is a common problem when it comes to interpreting Religious Texts). Unless it's specifically stated to be "fard" or forbidden, they have no right to make it haraam for us. This whole voice thin is one such thing.

For example, Quranic verse 33:32 reads:

"O wives of the Prophet! You are not like any other women - if you really fear Allah, then do not speak softly lest the one in whose heart is a disease have any inclination, and speak fairly." (NOTE: I have read of alternative translations of this exact same verse, since many have argued that there are problems with translation in this text and certain words have been translated in a way that may not be the only possible way. But for now, let's just assume this is the correct translation.)

Now, several things about this verse.

1. Guess what some interpreters/scholars have decided it means: "Women may not speak in public." Like, WHOA, WHAT?! They completely forget that the verse is addressed specifically TO the Prophet's wives.

2. The phrase "lest the one in whose heart is a disease have any inclination" has been interpreted by some (and I don't wanna have to give names of scholars who do this -- so don't compel me; it'll take some searching) to mean that "men will get turned on by your voice if you speak softly." HOW they ever came to this conclusion, I'll never be able to figure out.

3. The above-quote phrase is clearly not saying that ONLY men might respond to the women's (the prophet's wives') voices; since it doesn't specify which gender, we can conclude that even women might respond, can't we?

4. The above-quoted phrase suggests that whoever DOES respond to the Prophet's wives' soft voices has a disease in her/his heart. Now, when we tell women not to recite the Quran in public because men might get turned on, are we not saying that men have a disease in their hearts? And what do men think about this? And is it true to begin with?

5. Supposing that the verse above DOES apply to ALL women and not just the Prophet's wives, we still don't have any grounds for believing that it forbids women from speaking in public (or reciting the Quran in front of non-mahrams, singing, talking, etc., etc.) because it ends with advising them to speaking honorably -- NOT to never speak in public.

Also, remember that it's purely social and cultural to make men believe that they can get turned on by a woman's voice, regardless of its attractiveness. There's nothing INHERENT in a woman's voice that turns men on.

Bottom line, Feroza Guley, is this:

The whole claim that it's haraam for women to speak, sing, recite anything in public derives from the assumption that the woman's voice is what's called "aurah" to begin with. And THIS is perfectly open to interpretation and refutation: "Says who!?" or "Why define aurah to be this in the first place?" or "Who defines beauty in such a manner?" And at least 400 others that I can think of alone myself.

Now, if you still want me to find sources that say otherwise (i.e., women are Islamically allowed to recite the Quran in public), I can go searching when I have time. But I'm reminding you that unless something is *specifically* stated as XYZ in Islam, you have the power and ability to reason and question it yourself. And, mind you, nothing is actually specifically stated.