Ramadan and the Quran

[Shamlawar Khurasani]

Plus umar never invented tarawih. It existed already.

[BarakzaiAbdali]

Plus umar never invented tarawih. It existed already.

Not according to hadith 227 in the book of Bukhari's tarawih. Hadith 230 further delineates the nature of the Prophet's extra prayers during his own lifetime.

It was Omar that walked into the mosque in hadith 227 and noted disparate groups praying either as individuals or in tandem.

The tarawih prayer in congregation as we know it today, with the hafiz leading the prayer was Omar's own admitted bidah. He himself refers to it as such in his own words: "what an excellent bidah...."

So once again we have the following:

1) The Prophet reviewed the whole of the Quran annually
2) Tarawih prayer in congregation became Omar's innovation
3) Ubay was the first to lead it and was a memorizer of the whole of it
4) It is now the standard of practice ummah wide, but not a fardh

Hadith 230 by Aisha gives us information on the Prophet's own manner of extra prayer during Ramadan. It appears he grouped 4 rakah at a time into but never did more than 11 rakah including the witr.

[BarakzaiAbdali]

Tarawih is not the issue. Finishing quran in tarawih is

Well, take the issue up with Omar, who established it as a custom. It was he who decided Ubay ibn Kaab would lead and Ubay would go on to recite what he knew (which was the whole of it). This is why the custom became empire wide.

[Shamlawar Khurasani]

There are so many misconceptions youcare raising for each and everyone we need a seperate thread. Please refrain from drawing your own conclusion based on your limited knowledge.

[BarakzaiAbdali]

There are so many misconceptions youcare raising for each and everyone we need a seperate thread. Please refrain from drawing your own conclusion based on your limited knowledge.

These are historical references are provided by Bukhari himself. Omar's own words are "this is an excellent bidah." This is not limited knowledge. Its coming from multiple vantage points. Bukhari drew the conclusions for us.

The only supposition being made is that Ubay read the whole mushaaf (or that equivalently the practice started in Umar's time). Its absurd to think otherwise with the widespread utilization of this technique from timbuktu to islamabad to kabul to flint michigan.

Here is the text of the hadith:

Narrated Abu Huraira:

Allah's Apostle said, "Whoever prayed at night the whole month of Ramadan out of sincere Faith and hoping for a reward from Allah, then all his previous sins will be forgiven." Ibn Shihab (a sub-narrator) said, "Allah's Apostle died and the people continued observing that (i.e. Nawafil offered individually, not in congregation), and it remained as it was during the Caliphate of Abu Bakr and in the early days of 'Umar's Caliphate." 'Abdur Rahman bin 'Abdul Qari said, "I went out in the company of 'Umar bin Al-Khattab one night in Ramadan to the mosque and found the people praying in different groups. A man praying alone or a man praying with a little group behind him. So, 'Umar said, 'In my opinion I would better collect these (people) under the leadership of one Qari (Reciter) (i.e. let them pray in congregation!)'. So, he made up his mind to congregate them behind Ubai bin Ka'b. Then on another night I went again in his company and the people were praying behind their reciter. On that, 'Umar remarked, 'What an excellent Bid'a (i.e. innovation in religion) this is; but the prayer which they do not perform, but sleep at its time is better than the one they are offering.' He meant the prayer in the last part of the night. (In those days) people used to pray in the early part of the night."

Also, I will continue to draw the conclusion without refrain because it is absolutely the correct one. To think that there is any issue at all with public recitation of the Quran in tarawih as a whole, across the whole month when the historical basis for it is as outlined:

1) The Prophet recited it in total in Ramadan
2) Omar instituted the public tarawih and took special care to put a qari, Ubay no less in the fore front
3) Omar advocated jama Al Quran in the intial
4) The Muslim sunni public has universally accepted and practiced this approach as a consensus

Therefore, this is a commendable trait in the sunni Muslim ummah and should be wholeheartedly advocated for, though not made a fardh.

[Shamlawar Khurasani]

You are acting like Badlun now.

First of all, during the Prophet saws life tarawih was preformed in congregation in the masjid. But just like many other non-obligatory acts of worship rasool allah sal allahu alayhi wasalam feared that people might think it is obligatory. So he stopped going to the masjid for tarawih.

Similarly, he would abstain from voluntary acts of worship like fasting on mondays or nawafil in order to teach his ummah that these acts are voluntary.

Regarding bidah, it has two known definitions as far as i know. Religious definition and linguistic definition.

Religious definition is: inventing stuff and adding it to religion.

Linguistic definition is: inventing or initiating something.

Umar ra was obviously aware of tarawih. He used bidah as a word with the linguistic definition.

You should fear Allah and stop spreading your understanding of hadith.

[Admin Khan]

Tarawih is not the issue. Finishing quran in tarawih is

[MENTION=5381]Shamlawar Khurasani[/MENTION]
It takes about an hour and a half to 2 hours to finish a separah during Taraweeh, I think the guy is pretty eloquent, what is exactly is your issue with this?

[Shamlawar Khurasani]

Just because Muslims do something collectively it doesnt mean it is correct. Our faith is not based on practices of people we see.

[Shamlawar Khurasani]

[MENTION=5381]Shamlawar Khurasani[/MENTION]
It takes about an hour and a half to 2 hours to finish a separah during Taraweeh, I think the guy is pretty eloquent, what is exactly is your issue with this?

The false assumption that quran should be finished in ramadan. When everyone starts doing it it will be considered as a part of our religion by ignorants. Therefore, just like the Prophet saw, we should have variations in our voluntary acts of worship.

For not everyone is rational and sadly people assume that whatever people do must be correct.

[BarakzaiAbdali]

You are acting like Badlun now.

First of all, during the Prophet saws life tarawih was preformed in congregation in the masjid. But just like many other non-obligatory acts of worship rasool allah sal allahu alayhi wasalam feared that people might think it is obligatory. So he stopped going to the masjid for tarawih.

Not so. Hadith 229 in the same book elucidates this. The Prophet went alone one night without incentive or order and some men prayed behind him. The crowd grew with each passing night. The preceding hadith if Aisha makes note that the Prophet used to pray at night in Ramadan and delineates the number of rakah. That is a separate hadith (228). hadith 229 that follows has no explicit reference or time frame in Ramadan.

So that is an incorrect assumption. Hadith 230 clearly goes onto describe the number of rakah the messenger prayed in Ramadan which total 8 to make a total of 11 rakah when witr was included.

Similarly, he would abstain from voluntary acts of worship like fasting on mondays or nawafil in order to teach his ummah that these acts are voluntary.

Not relevant to this topic

Regarding bidah, it has two known definitions as far as i know. Religious definition and linguistic definition.

Religious definition is: inventing stuff and adding it to religion.

Linguistic definition is: inventing or initiating something.

Umar ra was obviously aware of tarawih. He used bidah as a word with the linguistic definition.

Grossly negligent and incorrect assumption without basis

You should fear Allah and stop spreading your understanding of hadith.
The contrary, you should fear Allah and not make uncommendable that which is truly commendable and something initiated by Umar

x

[BarakzaiAbdali]

Just because Muslims do something collectively it doesnt mean it is correct. Our faith is not based on practices of people we see.

General consensus on publicly reading the bedrock of Islam in the holy month when once again

1) The Prophet himself did it
2) There is a textual and historical basis

is not incorrect.

The general consensus is also that there is no sin in missing it either. So no harm no foul.

Rather, to simply naysay in order to naysay makes little sense at all.

[Shamlawar Khurasani]

May Allah guide you.

[BarakzaiAbdali]

Here is the hadith Shamlawar is referencing:

Narrated 'Urwa:

That he was informed by 'Aisha, "Allah's Apostle went out in the middle of the night and prayed in the mosque and some men prayed behind him. In the morning, the people spoke about it and then a large number of them gathered and prayed behind him (on the second night). In the next morning the people again talked about it and on the third night the mosque was full with a large number of people. Allah's Apostle came out and the people prayed behind him. On the fourth night the Mosque was overwhelmed with people and could not accommodate them, but the Prophet came out (only) for the morning prayer. When the morning prayer was finished he recited Tashah-hud and (addressing the people) said, "Amma ba'du, your presence was not hidden from me but I was afraid lest the night prayer (Qiyam) should be enjoined on you and you might not be able to carry it on." So, Allah's Apostle died and the situation remained like that (i.e. people prayed individually). "

Once again, no reference at all is made to tarawih or the equivalent thereof.

The second hadith in which Omar clearly references bidah, in light of the above, clearly proves the point.

Therefore,

1) Tarawih finds its basis in the practice of the first generation and in the mannerism of the Prophet (he used to do a total of 8 nawafal equivalent rakah)
2) The Prophet himself used to recite the whole Quran in Ramadan and twice before his passing
3) Ubay was a qari who was one of the 4 revered hafizaan
4) Umar congregationalized the tarawih

Once again reproducing that hadith, which is closely sectioned to the above hadith:

Then, here is the statement validating the role of Umar in all of this from himself in the preceding hadith:

"So, 'Umar said, 'In my opinion I would better collect these (people) under the leadership of one Qari (Reciter) (i.e. let them pray in congregation!)'. So, he made up his mind to congregate them behind Ubai bin Ka'b. Then on another night I went again in his company and the people were praying behind their reciter. On that, 'Umar remarked, 'What an excellent Bid'a (i.e. innovation in religion) this is; but the prayer which they do not perform, but sleep at its time is better than the one they are offering.'"

Here, bidah has no special significance, and the Saudi translation in hand adds the interpretation (innovation in religion). So that little section "innovation in religion" is not coming from me, but from the translator form the Islamic University, Al Madina

[BarakzaiAbdali]

Here is the hadith Shamlawar is referencing:

Narrated 'Urwa:

That he was informed by 'Aisha, "Allah's Apostle went out in the middle of the night and prayed in the mosque and some men prayed behind him. In the morning, the people spoke about it and then a large number of them gathered and prayed behind him (on the second night). In the next morning the people again talked about it and on the third night the mosque was full with a large number of people. Allah's Apostle came out and the people prayed behind him. On the fourth night the Mosque was overwhelmed with people and could not accommodate them, but the Prophet came out (only) for the morning prayer. When the morning prayer was finished he recited Tashah-hud and (addressing the people) said, "Amma ba'du, your presence was not hidden from me but I was afraid lest the night prayer (Qiyam) should be enjoined on you and you might not be able to carry it on." So, Allah's Apostle died and the situation remained like that (i.e. people prayed individually). "

Once again, no reference at all is made to tarawih or the equivalent thereof.

The second hadith in which Omar clearly references bidah, in light of the above, clearly proves the point.

Therefore,

1) Tarawih finds its basis in the practice of the first generation and in the mannerism of the Prophet (he used to do a total of 8 nawafal equivalent rakah)
2) The Prophet himself used to recite the whole Quran in Ramadan and twice before his passing
3) Ubay was a qari who was one of the 4 revered hafizaan
4) Umar congregationalized the tarawih

Once again reproducing that hadith, which is closely sectioned to the above hadith:

Then, here is the statement validating the role of Umar in all of this from himself in the preceding hadith:

"So, 'Umar said, 'In my opinion I would better collect these (people) under the leadership of one Qari (Reciter) (i.e. let them pray in congregation!)'. So, he made up his mind to congregate them behind Ubai bin Ka'b. Then on another night I went again in his company and the people were praying behind their reciter. On that, 'Umar remarked, 'What an excellent Bid'a (i.e. innovation in religion) this is; but the prayer which they do not perform, but sleep at its time is better than the one they are offering.'"

Here, bidah has no special significance, and the Saudi translation in hand adds the interpretation (innovation in religion). So that little section "innovation in religion" is not coming from me, but from the translator form the Islamic University, Al Madina

[BarakzaiAbdali]

May Allah guide you.

And you first.