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The other thread was locked for obvious reasons.
Here is the Ayah in question, and here are various translations of it. Let us go to the primary source:
"And those who no longer expect menstruation among your women - if you doubt, then their period is three months, and [also for] those who have not menstruated. And for those who are pregnant, their term is until they give birth. And whoever fears Allah - He will make for him of his matter ease."
(Sahih International)
"And for such of your women as despair of menstruation, if ye doubt, their period (of waiting) shall be three months, along with those who have it not. And for those with child, their period shall be till they bring forth their burden. And whosoever keepeth his duty to Allah, He maketh his course easy for him."
^Pikthall - who usually tried to do word for word literal
"Such of your women as have passed the age of monthly courses, for them the prescribed period, if ye have any doubts, is three months, and for those who have no courses (it is the same): for those who carry (life within their wombs), their period is until they deliver their burdens: and for those who fear Allah, He will make their path easy."
^Yusuf Ali
And as for those of your women who have despaired of menstruation, in case you have any suspicion, then their (fixed) spell shall be three months, (along) with those who have not menstruated (as yet). And (as for) those with burden, (i.e., those who are pregnant) their term is when they bring forth their burden; and whoever is pious to Allah, He will make for him, of His Command, easiness.
^ Ghali
Yusuf Ali, a liberal commentator in his footnote 5513 indicates that the bottom line of the first sentence is that all women have the iddah waiting period. The sentence would then read, rendered into common wording:
If you have a lady who is in the typical age spectrum for menopause she has a waiting a period, especially if you think that she may still not be there yet and may be able to bare children. You may have gotten your wife pregnant since her last period - so the waiting period applies. An in general, the waiting period applies. The hadith of the rebuke of ibn Umar appears to concord with Yusuf Ali's view:
"Narrated Abdullah Ibn Umar in Bukhari's Book of Divorce: That he had divorced his wife while she was menstruating during the lifetime of Allah's Apostle . 'Umar bin Al-Khattab asked Allah's Apostle about that. Allah's Apostle said, "Order him (your son) to take her back and keep her till she is clean and then to wait till she gets her next period and becomes clean again, whereupon, if he wishes to keep her, he can do so, and if he wishes to divorce her he can divorce her before having sexual intercourse with her; and that is the prescribed period which Allah has fixed for the women meant to be divorced."
Yet let us assume that Dreamer's online derived interpretation of this verse stands... in which case, Ghali's translation would be the closest.
An aside:
Remember folks, the best way to effectively neutralize an errant argument is to accept it. Its like luring your opponent onto your own terrain while he thinks you are on his.
So then back to the argument. What Dreamer's version distills down to is:
Menopausal women and women before menarche who are going to be divorced, but you are not sure if they (the former) are menopausal for real... you have the iddah.
So lets utilize this interpretation. When we do so, what we find is that the Quran actually does what it sets out to do: Cover multiple terrains and afford multiple groups a law code and protections. The point here is that neither the menopausal nor the premenstrual female if to be denied the iddah that is assumed of the common woman who is not in these gray zones.
More than that though... I am surprised that I need to reeducate Dreamer, a fellow physician, about the progression of and to maturity in our fairer sex counterparts!
Lets recount that in multiple cultures across the world, even long before and after Muhammad, it was not unusual to get married at 14 years of age. I want you to remember that number, F-O-U-R-T-E-E-N
Two examples suffice:
"Zondervan Pictorial Encyclopedia of the Bible points out, “It appears that both boys and girls were married very young. Later [after the New Testament period] the rabbis fixed the minimum age for marriage at twelve for girls and thirteen for boys.”
This is reference to the guestimated age for the Virgin Mary when she married the OLDER Joseph according to New Testament tradition.
Here is a link to the Theological Professor of Harvard, Dr. Philip King's famedbook, Life in Biblical Israel
He says on page 37, about BIBLICAL Israel previewable here:
http://books.google.com/books?id=OtO...page&q&f=false
"A few anecdotal incidents, and a wealth of later documentation, suggests that women married young, while still in their teens, while still in their teens, sometimes early teens in fact;...in Egypt girls were married between twelve and fourteen..."
And he goes on to note that men married later generally (affirming the notion that an older Joseph married a younger Mary).
And now fast forward centuries from BEFORE Muhammad to AFTER Muhammad.
Lets see what age Shakespeare makes his beloved Juliet whose name has penetrated even the Indus Valley at this point.
Shakespeare, the Father figure of literary modern English writes in his famed play:
"But saying o'er what I have said before:
My child is yet a stranger in the world;
She hath not seen the change of fourteen years,
Let two more summers wither in their pride,
Ere we may think her ripe to be a bride."
So Juliet is 13 years old.
I want you all to remember this number, T-H-I-R-T-E-E-N
So now, being educated in Britain, one would think that Dreamer knew of the Plowden Report. Its a report that we all learn about in year one of medical school because we are taught about the progressively earlier onset age of menarche compared to prior decades and even centuries. The Plowden report was one of the first to address this issue.
The average age of menarche from about 1850, based on documentation, to about 1960 is provided graphically and verbally addressed in the body of the report itself:
http://www.educationengland.org.uk/d...owden1-02.html
Go to diagram 2 about half way down the web version of this report where a graph is provided with the x axis labeled as year of menarche and age of menarche is on the y axis.
The average age of menarche in Norway for example, back in the 1800s was 17 and the authors of the report indicate that Great Britain's trending was similar.
So remember that number S-E-V-E-N-T-E-E-N
So all across the world, even now in parts of india, geographically, there are pre-17 year olds getting married. TEMPORALLY, in an era where this was acceptable, e.g. as the Professor points out, in Biblical Israel, or in Shakespeare's Britain (unless you want to accept the fact that Shakespeare was pornographic theater!) this was a COMMON occurrence.
So in Muhammad's time, forgetting even his own marriage, it was not an unusual thing. Nor was it an unusual thing hundred's of miles away to see a T-H-I-R-T-E-E-N (13) year old married. It was the guestimated age of the Virgin Mary and it was the age of Juliet.
So now what does this mean???
Well Dreamer, I think you owe the Holy Quran an apology as well since that verse that you mock codified protection for a large swath of women and attempted to address the various acceptions to the common norm (the 13 year old Juliets and the older menopausal women as well).
After all, if it was a norm for pre 17 year olds to get married, the trajectory of menarche on average in various parts of Europe was 17, we can safely assume that MANY married women across the prior centuries, even as recent as the 19th century, were PREMENARCHE.
And if you remember year 1 of Ob/Gyn/Endo
Thelarche (Breast developmental initiation) precedes Menarche by a few years!
Incidentally, womens brains also mature faster than that of their male counterparts
http://abcnews.go.com/2020/story?id=2504460&page=2
"Girls, she (Dr Brizendine) explained, mature faster than boys, and girls' brains are as much as two years ahead during puberty. It may not be until late adolescence or their early 20s that boys' brains catch up to their girl peers."
Here are the author's credentials... she went to two little schools on the East Coast
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Louann_Brizendine
So its not hard to assume that in the bygone eras of Shakespeare and Biblical Israel, girls at thelarche, who were already more mature than their counterparts, would be considered marriagable.
So the Quran basically protects and covers, in its codified divorce laws a large swathe of females. In such an instance if a male were to try and extend the iddah or hold her bound, he might have been able to say that she had not ever menstruated and therefore, he basically owned her and had the right to restrict her divorcing privileges or mess with the iddah time period.
So all you really uncovered Dreamer, was that the Quran says in summary:
"Women whose menstrual patterns are unknown have an iddah for themselves as well"
Since it was not uncommon to be married to a menopausal or a premenstrual (remember Mary and Juliet) female in those bygone eras.
The Quran itself rebukes people like yourself who have acquired the character traits of the people of the book in that try to take its literal and allegorical verses and twist them and or attribute to the Quran something that it does not say:
Surah 3
"There is among them a section who distort the Book with their tongues: (As they read) you would think it is a part of the Book, but it is no part of the Book; and they say, "That is from Allah," but it is not from Allah: It is they who tell a lie against Allah, and (well) they know it!"
and earlier in the surah it says"
"He it is Who has sent down to thee the Book: In it are verses basic or fundamental (of established meaning); they are the foundation of the Book: others are allegorical. But those in whose hearts is perversity follow the part thereof that is allegorical, seeking discord, and searching for its hidden meanings, but no one knows its hidden meanings except Allah. And those who are firmly grounded in knowledge say: "We believe in the Book; the whole of it is from our Lord:" and none will grasp the Message except men of understanding."
And, like any good book, the Quran is a classic... this is a double edged sword since classic texts and important law codes attract folks that do their utmost to try and chase down interpretations that may or may not be evidence based and/or valid.
It is for this same reason that habeaus corpus and the first and second amendments are *******ized by various parties to either restrict or overextend rights.
It is not the Quran's fault that you decided to take its commentary on divorce law regarding a common occurence and decide it made a sweeping call on marrying preteens. I would venture to say that it is not Manzerah that has anything to worry about... its the person that decided to read a general prescription as entitling people to seek out premenarchial women under the age of 12 when all it comments on is their iddah.
Here is the Ayah in question, and here are various translations of it. Let us go to the primary source:
"And those who no longer expect menstruation among your women - if you doubt, then their period is three months, and [also for] those who have not menstruated. And for those who are pregnant, their term is until they give birth. And whoever fears Allah - He will make for him of his matter ease."
(Sahih International)
"And for such of your women as despair of menstruation, if ye doubt, their period (of waiting) shall be three months, along with those who have it not. And for those with child, their period shall be till they bring forth their burden. And whosoever keepeth his duty to Allah, He maketh his course easy for him."
^Pikthall - who usually tried to do word for word literal
"Such of your women as have passed the age of monthly courses, for them the prescribed period, if ye have any doubts, is three months, and for those who have no courses (it is the same): for those who carry (life within their wombs), their period is until they deliver their burdens: and for those who fear Allah, He will make their path easy."
^Yusuf Ali
And as for those of your women who have despaired of menstruation, in case you have any suspicion, then their (fixed) spell shall be three months, (along) with those who have not menstruated (as yet). And (as for) those with burden, (i.e., those who are pregnant) their term is when they bring forth their burden; and whoever is pious to Allah, He will make for him, of His Command, easiness.
^ Ghali
Yusuf Ali, a liberal commentator in his footnote 5513 indicates that the bottom line of the first sentence is that all women have the iddah waiting period. The sentence would then read, rendered into common wording:
If you have a lady who is in the typical age spectrum for menopause she has a waiting a period, especially if you think that she may still not be there yet and may be able to bare children. You may have gotten your wife pregnant since her last period - so the waiting period applies. An in general, the waiting period applies. The hadith of the rebuke of ibn Umar appears to concord with Yusuf Ali's view:
"Narrated Abdullah Ibn Umar in Bukhari's Book of Divorce: That he had divorced his wife while she was menstruating during the lifetime of Allah's Apostle . 'Umar bin Al-Khattab asked Allah's Apostle about that. Allah's Apostle said, "Order him (your son) to take her back and keep her till she is clean and then to wait till she gets her next period and becomes clean again, whereupon, if he wishes to keep her, he can do so, and if he wishes to divorce her he can divorce her before having sexual intercourse with her; and that is the prescribed period which Allah has fixed for the women meant to be divorced."
Yet let us assume that Dreamer's online derived interpretation of this verse stands... in which case, Ghali's translation would be the closest.
An aside:
Remember folks, the best way to effectively neutralize an errant argument is to accept it. Its like luring your opponent onto your own terrain while he thinks you are on his.
So then back to the argument. What Dreamer's version distills down to is:
Menopausal women and women before menarche who are going to be divorced, but you are not sure if they (the former) are menopausal for real... you have the iddah.
So lets utilize this interpretation. When we do so, what we find is that the Quran actually does what it sets out to do: Cover multiple terrains and afford multiple groups a law code and protections. The point here is that neither the menopausal nor the premenstrual female if to be denied the iddah that is assumed of the common woman who is not in these gray zones.
More than that though... I am surprised that I need to reeducate Dreamer, a fellow physician, about the progression of and to maturity in our fairer sex counterparts!
Lets recount that in multiple cultures across the world, even long before and after Muhammad, it was not unusual to get married at 14 years of age. I want you to remember that number, F-O-U-R-T-E-E-N
Two examples suffice:
"Zondervan Pictorial Encyclopedia of the Bible points out, “It appears that both boys and girls were married very young. Later [after the New Testament period] the rabbis fixed the minimum age for marriage at twelve for girls and thirteen for boys.”
This is reference to the guestimated age for the Virgin Mary when she married the OLDER Joseph according to New Testament tradition.
Here is a link to the Theological Professor of Harvard, Dr. Philip King's famedbook, Life in Biblical Israel
He says on page 37, about BIBLICAL Israel previewable here:
http://books.google.com/books?id=OtO...page&q&f=false
"A few anecdotal incidents, and a wealth of later documentation, suggests that women married young, while still in their teens, while still in their teens, sometimes early teens in fact;...in Egypt girls were married between twelve and fourteen..."
And he goes on to note that men married later generally (affirming the notion that an older Joseph married a younger Mary).
And now fast forward centuries from BEFORE Muhammad to AFTER Muhammad.
Lets see what age Shakespeare makes his beloved Juliet whose name has penetrated even the Indus Valley at this point.
Shakespeare, the Father figure of literary modern English writes in his famed play:
"But saying o'er what I have said before:
My child is yet a stranger in the world;
She hath not seen the change of fourteen years,
Let two more summers wither in their pride,
Ere we may think her ripe to be a bride."
So Juliet is 13 years old.
I want you all to remember this number, T-H-I-R-T-E-E-N
So now, being educated in Britain, one would think that Dreamer knew of the Plowden Report. Its a report that we all learn about in year one of medical school because we are taught about the progressively earlier onset age of menarche compared to prior decades and even centuries. The Plowden report was one of the first to address this issue.
The average age of menarche from about 1850, based on documentation, to about 1960 is provided graphically and verbally addressed in the body of the report itself:
http://www.educationengland.org.uk/d...owden1-02.html
Go to diagram 2 about half way down the web version of this report where a graph is provided with the x axis labeled as year of menarche and age of menarche is on the y axis.
The average age of menarche in Norway for example, back in the 1800s was 17 and the authors of the report indicate that Great Britain's trending was similar.
So remember that number S-E-V-E-N-T-E-E-N
So all across the world, even now in parts of india, geographically, there are pre-17 year olds getting married. TEMPORALLY, in an era where this was acceptable, e.g. as the Professor points out, in Biblical Israel, or in Shakespeare's Britain (unless you want to accept the fact that Shakespeare was pornographic theater!) this was a COMMON occurrence.
So in Muhammad's time, forgetting even his own marriage, it was not an unusual thing. Nor was it an unusual thing hundred's of miles away to see a T-H-I-R-T-E-E-N (13) year old married. It was the guestimated age of the Virgin Mary and it was the age of Juliet.
So now what does this mean???
Well Dreamer, I think you owe the Holy Quran an apology as well since that verse that you mock codified protection for a large swath of women and attempted to address the various acceptions to the common norm (the 13 year old Juliets and the older menopausal women as well).
After all, if it was a norm for pre 17 year olds to get married, the trajectory of menarche on average in various parts of Europe was 17, we can safely assume that MANY married women across the prior centuries, even as recent as the 19th century, were PREMENARCHE.
And if you remember year 1 of Ob/Gyn/Endo
Thelarche (Breast developmental initiation) precedes Menarche by a few years!
Incidentally, womens brains also mature faster than that of their male counterparts
http://abcnews.go.com/2020/story?id=2504460&page=2
"Girls, she (Dr Brizendine) explained, mature faster than boys, and girls' brains are as much as two years ahead during puberty. It may not be until late adolescence or their early 20s that boys' brains catch up to their girl peers."
Here are the author's credentials... she went to two little schools on the East Coast
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Louann_Brizendine
So its not hard to assume that in the bygone eras of Shakespeare and Biblical Israel, girls at thelarche, who were already more mature than their counterparts, would be considered marriagable.
So the Quran basically protects and covers, in its codified divorce laws a large swathe of females. In such an instance if a male were to try and extend the iddah or hold her bound, he might have been able to say that she had not ever menstruated and therefore, he basically owned her and had the right to restrict her divorcing privileges or mess with the iddah time period.
So all you really uncovered Dreamer, was that the Quran says in summary:
"Women whose menstrual patterns are unknown have an iddah for themselves as well"
Since it was not uncommon to be married to a menopausal or a premenstrual (remember Mary and Juliet) female in those bygone eras.
The Quran itself rebukes people like yourself who have acquired the character traits of the people of the book in that try to take its literal and allegorical verses and twist them and or attribute to the Quran something that it does not say:
Surah 3
"There is among them a section who distort the Book with their tongues: (As they read) you would think it is a part of the Book, but it is no part of the Book; and they say, "That is from Allah," but it is not from Allah: It is they who tell a lie against Allah, and (well) they know it!"
and earlier in the surah it says"
"He it is Who has sent down to thee the Book: In it are verses basic or fundamental (of established meaning); they are the foundation of the Book: others are allegorical. But those in whose hearts is perversity follow the part thereof that is allegorical, seeking discord, and searching for its hidden meanings, but no one knows its hidden meanings except Allah. And those who are firmly grounded in knowledge say: "We believe in the Book; the whole of it is from our Lord:" and none will grasp the Message except men of understanding."
And, like any good book, the Quran is a classic... this is a double edged sword since classic texts and important law codes attract folks that do their utmost to try and chase down interpretations that may or may not be evidence based and/or valid.
It is for this same reason that habeaus corpus and the first and second amendments are *******ized by various parties to either restrict or overextend rights.
It is not the Quran's fault that you decided to take its commentary on divorce law regarding a common occurence and decide it made a sweeping call on marrying preteens. I would venture to say that it is not Manzerah that has anything to worry about... its the person that decided to read a general prescription as entitling people to seek out premenarchial women under the age of 12 when all it comments on is their iddah.
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