Risal-e-Nur and Fethullah Gulen

[khushal]

This is not what I want. This is what US can do. This is their power and their deterrence and cause of their being the only super power of the world. This is a scientific development although very bad.

We Pashtuns are famous to be a gallant, brave, martial people but what power we have? Nothing. Except few guns we cannot make any weapon to protect us or attack our enemy. Then why we are proud to be a warring people. We are suffering from idealism while the real power lies in Realism.

Sufism does not mean no defence or no preparation for an unwanted situation. Sufism is not a complete way of life. We have to run the system of the world in a real life situation. I am a Sufi but I can be president of my country. I cannot leave defence of my country to the ideal world of Sufism only. Sufism is for my soul but my country need ministry of defence and ministry of interior and a foreign office.

haha, you are a funny man. you claim to be a sufi but you have no idea what a sufi is or what and how they practice.
Sufism was a reaction to what you think is good for afghanistan. They abhor materialistic and political concerns that stood in contrast to the relative simplicity of prophet Muhammad's life.

I dont know why you dont tell the truth of what you are instead of trying to hide behind a belief that you know nothing about.

[RevolutionThroughReason]

Badlun ... shows all the character traits of someone who suffers from a severe inferiority complex. I agree with him about the Taliban issues; but I disagree with him about his slave mentality towards America. No one who is a Sufi would ever think like him, a Sufi relies on God alone, he has no anxiety about worldly issues because he believes everything goes back to God anyways.

Badlun I hope you really become a Sufi instead of pretending online, it's a shame that the word Sufi has become so trendy, because that invites people like you to falsely claim you are one of them. But I think this thread demonstrates as Khushal said, you know nothing about anything. Your ideas are flawed. I won't go into details here. but Let's just say that If someone stabs you in the back, you should never trust your life in their hands ever again. This is what America has done to Afghans many of times and STILL you want us to be their slave.

[Badlun]

I will once again clarify my position that I am a sufi ONLY spiritually but beyond my soul I have mind, body, ideas, nation, modern education, job, studies and many other aspects of life. I am not following asceticism or traditional Sufism to shun the world and live in a cave worshiping God. I follow Osho or Rumi who give me message of life, joy, enlightenment, meditation , music, dance as part of Sufism so please try to understand that I am a Sufi but not in the way you think.

Also about America I once again clarify that I want Afghanistan or Pashtunland as developed as America. America and their system is a model for me but I am not at all slave of America. If some one says I like system of Saudi, by this he does not become slave of Saudi. I also like politically some socialist ideas does not mean that I am slave of some Socialist country. I admonish America for lacking public diplomacy and advise them to include bread and book with bullet for other nations. I consider America lesser evil as compared to Taliban.

[RevolutionThroughReason]

Badlun; then you're not a Sufi at all, because Sufism is a dedication of your entire life, Without that you don't even have it spiritually. You're just maybe at best an admirer of Sufism. But you only admire the convenient parts not the stuff that requires giving up your passions and your nafs.

You're not following Rumi either as I had proved by the words of Rumi; since he was a Shari'ah advocate.

Wanting Pashtuns developed is a different topic than wanting Pashtuns to be exploited by America; you believe that allowing America exploit Afghanistan will help Afghanistan develop. This is the most irrational argument conceivable considering that it was American Books that cultivated the Taliban and all their billions of dollars are gone to help make Afghanistan exploitanle; the evidence is clear that America has no interest in developing Afghanistan nor should they. It isn't their job. It's Afghan's job ONLY< yes we can get help, but not by becoming 52nd State of America.

[abassinafghan]

I have one question to doctor abdali , who likes to refer to the rural masses in a very romanticized way .

Would you ever have the opportunity to become a doctor if you have been growed up in a village ? How your life would be ?

And dont tell me ," oh we had some much land , and i would be a landlord and living off the work and bag off the pesants who would enjoy to work their a-s-s-e-s off ,for me , and my parents would have sent me to india to study "

If you were truly up to your words , you would give up your privileged life and move into a dry bare village permanently and would try make a living some how ,without any certainty regarding making the next year or the well being of your familiy .no secured income ,no safety ,no doctor or medical facilities and even if , you dont have the cash no treatment .

Those people are so vulnerable and helpless that they are the real ones who have to trust in god .and in order are very easy to manipulate if you can tell them your ideas in a coat of religious legitimation .

Its no coincidence that some many people arround the world left and leave rural regions to seek better opportunities in other places or aboard , who else could you explain so many afghan and pashtun mohjirs in pakistan ,iran ,dubai ...?

Its one thing to condem violence done by foreign occupieres ,in order to protect an installed regime , of which the majority call their self till today mujahedin ,

And its another thing if you belive that people are happy with their miserable live because they tend to be more relgious because of the circumstances of their life .

Regarding erdogan and the akp , he isnt not succesfull and popular just because
He stopped the kemalist chauvinistic politics and rhetorics in turkey but gave them back their identy as in islamic country with great history .

But he also put his mouth where his money is .

- social wealthfare reforms
-freedom for minorities ( in this case the kurds )
- economic reforms which benefited a majority of the population
- fight against corruption


This enabled him to stop the appeasement politics towards the eu and change to a demanding position ,but still turkey is in the nato ,and still there are night clubs in istambul ,beer in effes and other stuff going on !

But still even the akp guy with the longest beard would not sell his daughter off to an foreign arab because he says , " i am an arab and mislim , give me your girl " or let alone leave the interests of his country down just in favour of islamic brotherhood .

To compare erdogan with our afghan muslims and mujahedins and taliban , is just ridiculous.

Our people are just good enough to kill each other , to sell each other off ,and compete in how long a beard must be to be considerd a good muslim .and of course who is a good muslim or not .of course most times just as a pretense for ones own political or personal porpouse .

Oh wait a good one do you know when the first human went off into space ,what people said among you rural masses ,even it came in the radio in afghanistan ?

That every one who belives such bs must be a kafir because the moon is 600 years away , and its not possible such a thing can happen .

This was 50 years ago , but not much has changed , thanks to foreign sponsord wahabis ,internal weakness lack of educationand foreign enforced wars .

[Badlun]

Badlun; then you're not a Sufi at all, because Sufism is a dedication of your entire life, Without that you don't even have it spiritually. You're just maybe at best an admirer of Sufism. But you only admire the convenient parts not the stuff that requires giving up your passions and your nafs.

You're not following Rumi either as I had proved by the words of Rumi; since he was a Shari'ah advocate.

Wanting Pashtuns developed is a different topic than wanting Pashtuns to be exploited by America; you believe that allowing America exploit Afghanistan will help Afghanistan develop. This is the most irrational argument conceivable considering that it was American Books that cultivated the Taliban and all their billions of dollars are gone to help make Afghanistan exploitanle; the evidence is clear that America has no interest in developing Afghanistan nor should they. It isn't their job. It's Afghan's job ONLY< yes we can get help, but not by becoming 52nd State of America.

I am eclectic in choosing good things or any idea which appeals to me from any where, from Osho, from Rumi, from Russel, from Shakespeare, from Muhammad, from Christ, from Moses, from Luther, from Plato from any where. Yes in religion I follow only Islam as I consider the belief system, worship modes and morality of Islam more convincing than others.

US will never physically occupy Afghanistan. US itself has recognized the Frankenstein monster of Taliban and they should compensate for their past mistakes. Now from my first hand experience I am sure they are interested in developing Afghanistan. This goes in their own benefit to have modern, developed and democratic ally. Otherwise they have another nightmare of Somalia, Mali, Sudan , Iran and the state run by Taliban in the near past.

[RevolutionThroughReason]

U.S. Is currently physically occupying Afghanistan, which of course will end since their occupation has failed and they have only helped the Taliban grow rather than get rid of the Taliban.


So your argument is falsified ....Ok you can say you're eclectic, but don't say you're a Sufi, just say you're influenced by CERTAIN Sufi ideas. This is more honest. Because a real Sufi is very different than you.

[BarakzaiAbdali]

I will control my emotions not to call you a real nincompoop, a dullard, dunce and hypocrite but just requesting you to share with us that in what form and shape you want to see Pashtuns after 300 years. For this long journey where from you want to start. Which model you want to apply at the time of zero km for the 300? Democracy and economic system as we see in US or one written in the books of Kanzul daqayaq, Muheet or Bukhari?

Who is your ideal to follow? Taliban or Ikhwan or Salafis or Alqaida or Jumate Islami or Tableeghyan or Iran or Democrats in US or Republicans in US or Liberals or Labor or Conservatives or any other one which you choose?

If you are a candidate for the president of Afghanistan what will be your key messages while talking to people of Afghanistan in a political gathering? You being a leader have to present an agenda as you cannot leave it to the people alone to decide.

That is where you and I disagree. I absolutely think it is our responsibility to leave it alone to the people to decide their direction.

There are native movements all along the scale from ideoreligious to secularnational and I think its very very arrogant for us to think that these groups cannot solve their own problems.

Will there be blood? Of course. Mullah Jefferson once said something to the effect that the Tree of Liberty is watered by blood.

That is the arc of human history - disputes between native peoples can turn out violent. Usually though, these internal disputes can eventually reach some sort of apex of chaos that forces the nation to rethink its course and understand harsh realities. Outsider interference only radicalizes or demarcates separations all the more.

Regarding the 300 year question and what sort of system I want to see in place - I think it is very clear and plain for all to see that Kiplingesque approaches to any peoples is bound to fail. It does not have to be distilled down to 2 simple choices of: Saudi system versus US System.

The beauty of this world is its variety of national and local systems all running in tandem.

Look even at the history of our own peoples when there was a modicum of independence. In his own attempt to centralize power, Abdurrahman had to try and break the backbone of various tribal and local confederacies and he had created devastating after effects that last to this day in the form of local Pashtun vs Pashtun disputes and Pashtun versus other ethnicity disputes.

We need to stop experimenting on these people and let them find their own way. Experience is the best teacher.

I think where we can agree is that the incorrect implementation of divine law (or implementation in a concrete way without wisdom) has two very negative effects: it creates local and global dissatisfaction with the religion because of confounders being ignored and gross injustices can permeate so many aspects of peoples lives because they may have to deal with hypocritical leaders who consistenly say: do as I say, not as I do.

I would invite you to read about the Puritan history of the United States:
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/12/15/op...s.html?hp&_r=1&

And about the life of Nathanial Hawthorne:
"William's son and the author's great-great-grandfather, John Hathorne, was one of the judges who oversaw the Salem witch trials. Having learned about this, the author may have added the "w" to his surname in his early twenties, shortly after graduating from college, in an effort to dissociate himself from his notorious forebears"

I think you are confusing issues by saying: what is the deal system to follow? This is not like Ibrahim Alay Salaam searching for the system like a god with a small g where we try out different systems and then happen upon the right one.

I have been saying to you from the beginning that AQ and Taliban and all the other groups are not "systems" they are responses to interventionalism by the same people you seek to emulate. The usual response of "oh well that is human history and Arabs and Turks also intervened" is not good enough for me for two reasons: 1) That is true and that is why the problems exist in the Balkans and we should understand the complex history of these places and not denigrate them by thinking we are always right and 2) Just because prior people did wrong does not absolve modern people from committing the same excesses in the rapid information access era.

A misaal for you:
I met a Pashtun man from Mardan once. His family members were all educated people, including the girls. He was not into political discussions, but he told me that its not just Pashtun nature but human nature to respond to stimulus in certain ways. His sister was given away in a fight between two families and she was abused a lot. That made him decide he would never let his daughters have the same outcome. He said something very shrewd though when we talked about outsiders. His comment was: if you put a topak to a man's head and you are an outsider, even if you are a local outsider (i.e. from a different family/village/police force) that person will say to himself: "oh this mongrel dog is trying to force me to do x,y, and z... well then I DEFINITELY will do a,b, and c instead." And we see this effect even now in Afghanistan. In one area where the NATO people were ejected from, the locals tore up the sapling trees because they were planted by kharijaan and the people were suspicious of them.

In this same way, I think that what will happen is various groups will end up taking control of areas of the country when the Americans leave. The unfortunate thing will be that the local inhumane powers also (China, Pakistan, Russia, Istaan states, Iran and the US from afar) wont be content and will still make the peoples lives hard by supporting this balkanization. Karzai's vision will be realized, but in a way he completely did not expect: force vector neutralization will occur but it will occur internally - not externally - and the country will be balkanized. He will be astounded.

In the ideal situation - in Afghanistan local unhindered groups would take control and be autonomous. If they were smart they would not pursue a civil war but work together to make stability and not be selfish. People from disparate regions will learn that they have to agree to disagree. Unlikely that would happen though - and some sort of civil war will ensue. Local systems with semi cultural and semi religious ideologies may be used during this tumult. Eventually though - and it may take a generation or two - but just as that son of Mardan saw an event that made him not like something native and decided to change it - locals will also begin to risk their own lives to change a system over time.

I tend to look at it as the fact that these nation states were carved out to fail or to be used for outsider purposes/imperial purposes by their very design. I have repeatedly stated that small nation states with burgeoning populations cannot defy mathematics and biology: they are bound to fail. These states have to decide on some sort of union of a system that incorporates all of them that have a common goal: autonomy and control of their own resources. A person who wants to study law or medcine or engineering and hails from Kabul should be able to easily study in Tehran, Taskhent, Kandahar, or in farther regions. The various strengths of each nation state should be utilized for the benefit of the union (e.g. Iran has oil, Afghanistan has mineral wealth, Pakistan has waterways etc) and the nationhood identity should fade away resulting in a large union being seen as the nation and these local countries being seen as states. Ethnically and religio-ideologically people have to live and let live and if they want to incorporate elements of Islamic law into their general body of laws because that reflects somewhat their lifestyle, then so be it - but they have to come to an understanding that a Hazara or a person in Tehran or a person in place x y and z may defer to his local view of this process a bit differently and just be OK with that for the good of general stability. I guess you can view this in that recent book about **** Cheney. He had to adjust to the more liberal mindset in Connecticut despite his Wyoming rural ideologies. The general federated body of laws applied in each state, but state's rights also exist.

So I think its best to just do your job as a civilian and help out civilians without commenting or involving yourself in that internal dispute. If you are a doctor, keep being one and let them figure it out. If you are a mechanical engineer - keep doing your device design and just help people out. Be an observer and let them deal with their own issues.

[Khostai]

^But aren't we the peopel? So just becuase we are not in Afghanistan we should do nothing?
You really sound like the old elite of Afghanistan, who did nothing for the common man, they just spend all the money on them self and the rural population looked like some stone age society, actual becuase of this attitude, of living the peopel do what they want, led to rise of the poverty and that led to the religious extreme on one hand and on the the other to the rise of communism and leftist movement.

[Badlun]

Barakzai Abdali
Thanks a lot for your feedback on my queries. In this positive way we can reach some conclusion as all of us are here with one common factor and that is Pashtuns Affairs. After reading your scholarly post many times I still have some questions on which you may comment whenever you have time.

A nation cannot rise to glory without leadership.Seventy millions Pashtuns need leader or leaders. A leader always have a vision, a mission, an ideology, a set of values, a plan, a program, a manifesto, a strategy to present to his/her followers, his/her comrades, nation, companions, party and general public. We cannot leave peopple without guidance and leadership otherwise we can have anarchy, chaos, nihilism and a stateless society as Pashtuns unfortunately have especially in tribal areas in Pakistan or war lords controlled regions in Afghanistan.

This is what we should discuss here. We if now are not leaders but can become leaders of the whole Pashtun nation or a segment of them at some juncture of time. We should be ready for such a role by having great ideals but pragmatic strategy.

Your idea of confederation of Muslim states is excellent. European Union or Asean can be a model for it. Already we have ECO or SAARC. But each nation or state should and will preserve its own identity.

Our difference of opinion will be very sharp on the role of religion. I am not at all in favor of OIC kind of organizations which is a total failure. Yes ECO, SAARC, SCO etc can work. Religion is for person or maximum for family not beyond that. Thousands years of the history of any religion including Islam has proved it.

Political role of Islam on the first day of the demise of the holy prophet was disputed but after 30 years it was completely ousted from politics and even the grandson of prophet was killed for power. Christianity is already completely dead politically. Even Israel has declared itself a secular state. Except few eruptions in Sri lanka Buddhism always remained aloof from politics. Shintoism, Confucianism, Taoism, Jainsim never had exclusive political roles.

I always recommend a simple formula that we adopt a system where Pashtunwali is our culture and society, Islam our religion(faith, worship, morality), democracy(adult franchise and can be on the style of a Jirga), Market economy and modern education. This is already happening in Afghanistan under Karzai and in Pakistan under ANP and PMAP.

Reaction to foreign intervention should be on political grounds not on religious otherwise then we have menaces of AQ and Taliban. Many people resist foreign intervention but they do not use religion in their struggle but use peaceful means or even war but not flaming religious sentiments of the general populace.

[Admin Khan]

I have one question to doctor abdali , who likes to refer to the rural masses in a very romanticized way .

Would you ever have the opportunity to become a doctor if you have been growed up in a village ? How your life would be ?

And dont tell me ," oh we had some much land , and i would be a landlord and living off the work and bag off the pesants who would enjoy to work their a-s-s-e-s off ,for me , and my parents would have sent me to india to study "

If you were truly up to your words , you would give up your privileged life and move into a dry bare village permanently and would try make a living some how ,without any certainty regarding making the next year or the well being of your familiy .no secured income ,no safety ,no doctor or medical facilities and even if , you dont have the cash no treatment .

Those people are so vulnerable and helpless that they are the real ones who have to trust in god .and in order are very easy to manipulate if you can tell them your ideas in a coat of religious legitimation .

Its no coincidence that some many people arround the world left and leave rural regions to seek better opportunities in other places or aboard , who else could you explain so many afghan and pashtun mohjirs in pakistan ,iran ,dubai ...?

Its one thing to condem violence done by foreign occupieres ,in order to protect an installed regime , of which the majority call their self till today mujahedin ,

And its another thing if you belive that people are happy with their miserable live because they tend to be more relgious because of the circumstances of their life .

Regarding erdogan and the akp , he isnt not succesfull and popular just because
He stopped the kemalist chauvinistic politics and rhetorics in turkey but gave them back their identy as in islamic country with great history .

But he also put his mouth where his money is .

- social wealthfare reforms
-freedom for minorities ( in this case the kurds )
- economic reforms which benefited a majority of the population
- fight against corruption


This enabled him to stop the appeasement politics towards the eu and change to a demanding position ,but still turkey is in the nato ,and still there are night clubs in istambul ,beer in effes and other stuff going on !

But still even the akp guy with the longest beard would not sell his daughter off to an foreign arab because he says , " i am an arab and mislim , give me your girl " or let alone leave the interests of his country down just in favour of islamic brotherhood .

To compare erdogan with our afghan muslims and mujahedins and taliban , is just ridiculous.

Our people are just good enough to kill each other , to sell each other off ,and compete in how long a beard must be to be considerd a good muslim .and of course who is a good muslim or not .of course most times just as a pretense for ones own political or personal porpouse .

Oh wait a good one do you know when the first human went off into space ,what people said among you rural masses ,even it came in the radio in afghanistan ?

That every one who belives such bs must be a kafir because the moon is 600 years away , and its not possible such a thing can happen .

This was 50 years ago , but not much has changed , thanks to foreign sponsord wahabis ,internal weakness lack of educationand foreign enforced wars .

Don't you think the situation in Turkey and Afghanistan is quite different, and can't be compared?

[BarakzaiAbdali]

Don't you think the situation in Turkey and Afghanistan is quite different, and can't be compared?

I didnt see the original post of Abbassina's... to answer the question, I think that its really rather strange to use the now worn out argument:

"If you actually think rural people are right or Islamists are right you would uproot yourself and move into a hut."

That is not the argument I am making. I also am not making the case for the rule of the mullah to supercede all else in the rural areas. I, like you, have an ancestoral village and know that in times of peace and what not the mullah can barely make a "taath" and is pretty much confined to his space.

Instead, I am making the argument that outsiders, assisted by their collaborators subvert the natural evolution of a society towards a healthy socioeconomic and rural urban balance by accelerating and imposing ideologies that the masses are not ready for. Then the rural masses get hyperdefensive and radicalize in response. This happens all around the world, not just in Afghanistan.

Take for instance, Iran. And bear with me, I am not talking about Iran being great, awesome, cool, or a friend... I am just using their example for discussion.

Mossawi and his people were mainly urbanists and were using outsider power to try and overthrow the Iranian government that gets the majority of its Baseejee support from the rural masses. When this happened in the past and Pehlavi was on the throne by force - they suffered and their will was overlooked and they were abused and taken advantage of. An unhealthy dichotomy happened and then the revolution occurred. Early on, under Khomeini, radicalism flourished but by the early 90s late 80s the people had elected Khatami and other more liberal minded people. Why? Because they were left alone to develop and were not prodded.

In this same way - you need to detach yourself and me from the argument. And perhaps the question could be reflected to you and others. Why would you, if you felt that you had vision for Afghanistan and its masses, have left and not let Mullah Omar do the heavy lifting and fighting? That is where the American experience diverges. Their urban elite led their people into war even when France was willing to take them in and allow them to direct their American insurgency from abroad. The average person respects a high correlation and deed to word ratio. The Islamists were willing to match word to deed and die in the Russian killing fields resulting in lots of public sympathy and fealty. The urbanists, royalists etc were too busy leading meetings on how to fight in Peshawar and other places not amenable to doing anything other than drinking green tea and eating almonds in chai khanaas. The whole time they were thinking they were educated men, but had mainly bought their degrees and could hardly be called educated or rational thinkers.

So the failure in Afghanistan's development does not stem from letting the rurals just toil and sit in their existence... but rather from the supposed leaders and others like Sibgathullah Mojjadidi talking from the back end of the fighting and then trying to come in and claim the glory. If leadership does not lead, then the next man in line takes over the leadership... and the rural masses and the others did that... they fought and bled for Afghanistan. Why should I ignore that and look down on them? I never said they were right about science or mathematics etc etc but I honestly dont think dropping bombs on them and coercian and stunting the natural developmen of a sovereign nation state will be a healthy thing for Afghanistan's future.