Question for Madhabis: Are Muslim |Scholars Flawless?

[شمله ور خراساني]

As salaamu aleikoum wa rahmatullahi wa barakatuhu,

I would like to know from our fellow members who are staunch supporters of Madhahib, if they consider classical scholars as flawless or not?

And if the scholars are flawless, then isn't being flawless not an aspect of Allah?

Because attributing flawlessness to human beings is shirk.

And if you do believe that scholars can flaw and they are but human beings, then why should we follow them blindly?

[Mujib]

Wa `alaykum as-Salam

Scholars are not infallible. With regards to the madhhabs, it's not that one should follow them blindly (as though this were a recommendation), rather, it's that we cannot help but follow them blindly. And doing so is completely permissible and not blameworthy. Why? Because it is not possible, as was said before, for everyone to be an expert in every field. As for studying a madhhab and its usul and proofs, then this is something praiseworthy and excellent.

[شمله ور خراساني]

This determinism of following madhabs is false. Because scholars as inqilab stated, were not born as mujtahids.

And suppose you don't know the opinion of madhahib, are you not allowed extract from quran or from bulugh al maram or from ryadh as saaaliheen or from fath ul bari?

[Dreamer]

well done! no madhabie can say that their imam is in janaat... so why the hell should we follow them?????? take their advise sure but dont set up a whole school around them

[Feroza_Banu]

This determinism of following madhabs is false. Because scholars as inqilab stated, were not born as mujtahids.

And suppose you don't know the opinion of madhahib, are you not allowed extract from quran or from bulugh al maram or from ryadh as saaaliheen or from fath ul bari?

i would like to ask you a question first, brother.
how do you think u are in a position to prove these madhabs wrong or faulty?

what is your qualification?

[شمله ور خراساني]

i would like to ask you a question first, brother.
how do you think u are in a position to prove these madhabs wrong or faulty?

what is your qualification?

None. I have no formal qualifications what so ever.

But you don't need to be a rocket scientist to figure out that blindly following the opinion of a group is not what Islam is about.

And for you kind information: I did not attempt to prove any madhab being wrong. All I am saying is, we should not go around claiming that we should strictly abide by the opinion of one particular madhab and reject anything else.

Because at the end of day, the scholars on whom's opinions madhahib are founded use Qur'an and Sahih hadith as source.

So if a scholar makes a mistake, or if a madhab has a practice that contradicts Qur'an & Sahih hadith, should we still continue to follow that particular madhab blindly?

Human beings are weak and can make mistakes. Anyone can study and become a scholar. So why should we glorify scholars to the level where nobody even dares to differ with scholars?

We need to stay rational and we should not loose reason. There are plenty of people who feel threatened when they hear that other Muslims disagree with their practices. As if the reputation of our forefather is at stake if suddenly it turns out that we have a practice in our religion accustomed that is actually not founded on Quran & Sunnah.

This mentality is the reason why there are so many bad practices among Muslims.

[Feroza_Banu]

None. I have no formal qualifications what so ever.

But you don't need to be a rocket scientist to figure out that blindly following the opinion of a group is not what Islam is about.

And for you kind information: I did not attempt to prove any madhab being wrong. All I am saying is, we should not go around claiming that we should strictly abide by the opinion of one particular madhab and reject anything else.

Because at the end of day, the scholars on whom's opinions madhahib are founded use Qur'an and Sahih hadith as source.

So if a scholar makes a mistake, or if a madhab has a practice that contradicts Qur'an & Sahih hadith, should we still continue to follow that particular madhab blindly?

Human beings are weak and can make mistakes. Anyone can study and become a scholar. So why should we glorify scholars to the level where nobody even dares to differ with scholars?

We need to stay rational and we should not loose reason. There are plenty of people who feel threatened when they hear that other Muslims disagree with their practices. As if the reputation of our forefather is at stake if suddenly it turns out that we have a practice in our religion accustomed that is actually not founded on Quran & Sunnah.

This mentality is the reason why there are so many bad practices among Muslims.

the problem behind a muslim practicing Islam wrongly in today's world is not because they are blindly practicing one particular madhab rather that they practice that one perticular madhab wrongly, and without enough knowledge of that madhab.

the fundamental of islam is tawheed... no matter which madhab u follow it teaches u to worship one Allah swt, and believe in his Messangers and his last messanger Mohammad PBUH...and the Quran... once this fundamental aqeeda is in every muslim's heart... the rest of the stuff about "how to pray, how to ghusul, how to perform certain practices in Islam" can be covered under any of the madhabs... and no matter which one of the madhab is chosen, one has to educate oneself with that madhab and its rulings.

can you please find flaws and present them here? and this question is not to imply that i am saying they are flawless.

[Mujib]

Sister, these are the fruits of the fitna of la-madhhabiyya (not following a madhhab). The `ulama are discounted and non-scholars make claims to knowledge. Knowledge itself is devalued and the study of the din is treated as something small. The attack on scholars and knowledge is the first step in the process of disassociating Muslims from their religion. It is an attempt to destroy the tradition of Islam and to begin something new, something reformed and distorted.

The response to these claims of "Scholars are not perfect" is this: You and I are even further from being perfect. We are safer, then, in following scholars rather than our own ignorant selves.

[Dreamer]

to all madhabies... the prophet never ordered us 2 follow one so we dont.... simple as!

[Dreamer]

i would like to ask you a question first, brother.
how do you think u are in a position to prove these madhabs wrong or faulty?

what is your qualification?

ummm because it was not done so in the prophets lifetime... there was no concept of a "madhab" in islam... these madhabies have done so much damage to islam

[Maiwand]

1/11 DEFENDERS Of The FAITH

i strongly advice all of the muslims to listen to this lecture series by the Sheikh Ali Al-Tamimi about the importance of scholars and scholarship in Islam. And how to recognize the real scholars and respect them. This lecture is about the real revivers of the faith (scholars). Because there are many misconceptions nowadays about this subject and muslims are getting divided by our enemies, we should listen to this lecture and learn from it and spread it, inshallah.

This is part 1 of 11. The others are on the youtube channel.

[Dreamer]

There is a passage in the quran or hadtith which speaks of the ahle kitaab taking as gods their monks and rabbies and doctors of law ( i.e their scholars) one sahaba who had previously been of the ahle kitaab stated that they didnt do this to which the prophet is meant 2 have replied that they listend to their scholars more than 2 what their books said... so if their law said one thing they would do the opposite if their scholars told them 2 .... this is the danger of madhabs and scholars and blind following... and sure enough this is happening in muslims 2

[Maiwand]

There is a passage in the quran or hadtith which speaks of the ahle kitaab taking as gods their monks and rabbies and doctors of law ( i.e their scholars) one sahaba who had previously been of the ahle kitaab stated that they didnt do this to which the prophet is meant 2 have replied that they listend to their scholars more than 2 what their books said... so if their law said one thing they would do the opposite if their scholars told them 2 .... this is the danger of madhabs and scholars and blind following... and sure enough this is happening in muslims 2

That hadith is about the christians monks and the jewish rabbi's, who changed the laws and books of Allah (swt). They made halal what Allah (swt) made haram and vice versa. Allah (swt) said they became mushrik by that. So it is a very dangeroud thing to change the teachings of Islam or being selective with the laws of Allah (swt) or neglecting them. Like many people do nowadays with Jihad, they have changed the meaning of it and it is like they have erased it from the book of Allah (swt).

[Maiwand]

Ibn `Abbas (ra) said: "Stones are about to rain down upon you from the sky: I say to you: "Allah's Messenger said..." and you reply: "But Abu Bakr and `Umar said...?" 1
Because obedience is a form of worship, it is not allowed to obey anyone - be he man or jinn - unless it conforms with obedience to Allah and His Messenger . This is why Ibn `Abbas (ra) repudiated those who, when they were informed that the Prophet had pronounced upon a matter, objected that Abu Bakr As-Siddeeq and `Umar Ibn Al-Khattab (may Allah be pleased with them both) 2 had said something different, thus, in effect, preferring the opinions of these two pious Companions over the Revelation of Allah . This incident allegedly occurred during a discussion about Hajj in which Ibn `Abbas (ra) mentioned something which he had heard from Muhammad, the Messenger of Allah . Ibn `Abbas (ra) warned them of Allah's approaching punishment and His Anger for those who preferred the opinions of Abu Bakr and `Umar (may Allah be pleased with them) to the guidance of Allah's Messenger . - In view of this, what may be said of those who prefer the opinions of lesser men over the Book of Allah and the Sunnah of His Prophet . 3
Benefits Derived From This Narration

1. Evidence of the virtue of Ibn `Abbas and his excellent understanding of religious matters.
2. That no opinion which contradicts the Qur'an and Sunnah is to be given heed, no matter from whom it emanated.
3. The obligation to be angry for Allah and His Messenger's sake.

Relevance of This Narration to the Subject of the Chapter and to the Subject of Tawheed
That the narration proves that Ibn `Abbas (ra) held that it is forbidden to prefer the opinion of any of Allah's creatures over the Sunnah of the Messenger of Allah and this is because to do so is an act of Shirk since it constitutes obedience to other than Allah .

..ooOOoo..

Imam Ahmad Ibn Hanbal said: "I am amazed at those people who know that a sanad is authentic and yet, in spite of this, they follow the opinion of Sufyan, for Allah (ra), says:

" Let those who oppose his [the Messenger's] commandment beware, lest some fitnah befall them or a painful torment be inflicted on them" (Qur'an 24:63)

Do you know what that fitnah is? That fitnah is Shirk. Maybe the rejection of some of his words would cause one to doubt and deviate in his heart and thereby be destroyed."
In this narration, Imam Ahmad Ibn Hanbal rejects those who abandon the Sunnah of the Prophet , after it has been made clear to them its authenticity and the meaning has been explained to them, in favour of the opinion of Sufyaan Ath-Thawri4 and other scholars, in spite of their fallibility. And he warns them against deviating, by rejecting Allah's Book or the Sunnah of His Prophet ; this is because the blind followers of the mazahib5 frequently change the meanings of Qur'anic verses and Ahadithor quote them out of context, or claim that they have been abrogated in order to make them conform with their particular mazhab. Then the Imam supports his contention by mentioning the Words of Allah , Most High; let the Qur'an be sufficient proof for us all.
Benefits Derived From This Narration

1. That in the opinion of Imam Ahmad it is forbidden to abandon the Sunnah of Allah's Messenger in favour of the saying of any person, no matter how knowledgeable and pious he may be.
2. That every commandment of the Prophet is considered obligatory, unless there is some proof to indicate its preferability.
3. That rejecting the Law of Allah leads to destruction in this world and in the Hereafter.

Relevance of This Narration to the Subject of the Chapter and to the Subject of Tawheed
That it proves that Imam Ahmad considered that deviating from the Sunnah of the Messenger of Allah in favour of the sayings of others is Shirk, because it involves obedience to other than Allah and His Messenger ; and he quotes from the Qur'an to prove his contention.

..ooOOoo..

On the authority of `Adi Ibn Hatim (ra), it is reported that he heard the Messenger of Allah reciting this Qur'anic verse:

" They have taken their rabbis and their monks as lords beside Allah and [they take as a lord] Al-Maseeh, `Eesaa, the son of Maryam, yet they were not commanded but to worship One God: None has the right to be worshipped but He - Praise and Glory to Him: [Far is He] from having the partners they associate [withHim]" (Qur'an 9:31)
"...and I said to him : "We don't worship them." He said: "Do they not forbid what Allah has permitted and do you not then forbid it (to yourselves), and do they not make permissible for you what Allah has forbidden, and do you not then make it permissible (to yourselves)?" I replied: "Certainly!" He said: "That is worshipping them." (Narrated by At-Tirmizi, who graded it as Hasan)

`Adi Ibn Hatim informs us in this Hadith, that when he heard the Prophet reciting Allah's Words:

" They have taken their rabbis and their monks as lords beside Allah. And [they take as their lord] Al-Maseeh, `Eesaa, the son of Maryam" (Qur'an 9:31)

He contradicted the Prophet , saying that they do not worship them; for to his mind, what was meant by worship was bowing, prostration, supplication, sacrifice etc. But the Prophet informed him that their obedience to the rabbbis and monks in forbidding the permissible and permitting the forbidden was a form of worship, because they have thus made their rabbis and monks partners to Allah in obedience and in ordaining the Law.
Benefits Derived From This Hadith

1. Evidence that the rabbis and monks are astray.
2. Confirmation of the Jews' and Christians' Shirk.
3. That the original Message of all the Messengers and Prophets was tawheed.
4. That obedience to any of Allah's creatures, if it entails disobedience to Allah , constitutes an act of worship.
5. The obligation to inquire from the people of knowledge about matters which one does not understand.
6. The rejection of blind obedience to Allah's creatures, for all except the Prophets are fallible.

Relevance of This Hadith to the Subject of the Chapter and to the Subject of Tawheed
That it proves that whoever obeyed a religious scholar by making the permissible forbidden, or vice versa has committed an act of Shirk.
Footnotes
1. While according to a number of scholars of Hadith, this is a weak narration, its meaning is correct.

2. Abu Bakr As-Siddeeq and 'Umar Ibn Al-Khattab: Two close friends of the Prophet and the first and second Khaleefah (Caliph) respectively, after his death. They were among the most knowledgeable and pious of the Companions.

3. Such as those who, when confronted with a Prophetic Hadith say: "Yes, but our Shaikh says..." or: "Yes, but in our mazhab (i.e. school of Islamic jurisprudence)..."

4. Sufyaan Ibn Sa'eed Ibn Masrooq Ath-Thawri: A great scholar of Hadith and fiqh, who lived in the first century after the hijrah. He died in the year 61 A.H., aged 64 years.

5. Mazahib: Plural of mazhab.

[Dreamer]

^ likewise some "muslim" scholars are doing the same thing in islam... in these madhabs u have these scholars who make haraam what is halaal etc just goes 2 show the dangers of blind following