Concubines in Quran are not slaves (ma malakat aymanukum)

[Bigmo]

I haven't studied this touchy subject much, Quran may have allowed slavery but, it also clearly discourages it and says to treat the slaves with respect.

But here is another dilemma, why was it allowed to begin with? and how are we suppose to monitor which slaves owner are treating their slaves right or wrong

These are the sort of issues, there are no answers too. we really just have to use common sense

Also again,over all Islam has discouraged slavery, so living in current times, all muslims should abandon this practice in my opinion, the reason I say this is, there are still some people who are practice it in some countries

I do not believe it was allowed to begin with. Slavery existed when the Quran came down but there is no evidence that the believers had slaves. The believers were not the only people living in Mecca and the Arabian peninsula, in fact most were Pagans and some were jews.

The only reference used by some to imply that the believers (including the prophet) had slaves is the ma malakat aymanukum verses.

2.177. It is not righteousness that ye turn your faces Towards east or West; but it is righteousness- to believe in Allah and the Last Day, and the Angels, and the Book, and the Messengers; to spend of your substance, out of love for Him, for your kin, for orphans, for the needy, for the wayfarer, for those who ask, and for the ransom of slaves; to be steadfast in prayer, and practice regular charity; to fulfil the contracts which ye have made; and to be firm and patient, in pain (or suffering) and adversity, and throughout all periods of panic. Such are the people of truth, the Allah.fearing.

Surely the prophet was among the most righteous and surely he would be the first to free whatever slaves he can free and the last to own and enslave anyone.

Nay, I swear by this city... We verily have created man in an atmosphere... But he hath not attempted the Ascent, Ah, what will convey unto thee what the Ascent is! It is to free a slave, And to feed in the day of hunger, An orphan near of kin, Or some poor wretch in misery. And to be of those who believe and exhort one another to perseverance and exhort one another to pity

Surely the prophet would the be the first who would be the most fearful to fail the ascent(on the day of judgement) and surely he would be the first to have the deeds to pass the ascent.

More importantly the prophet was the best example. He would not recite such verses and then not adhere to them and fail to lead by example. He would be the most righteous and the most fearful to fail the ascent on the day of Judgement.


26.18-22 (Pharaoh) said: "Did we not cherish thee as a child among us, and didst thou not stay in our midst many years of thy life? "And thou didst a deed of thine which (thou knowest) thou didst, and thou art an ungrateful (wretch)!" Moses said: "I did it then, when I was in error. "So I fled from you (all) when I feared you; but my Lord has (since) invested me with judgment (and wisdom) and appointed me as one of the apostles."And this is the favour with which thou dost reproach me,- that thou hast enslaved the Children of Israel!"
Surely the prophet would not commit the same act that Moses condemned the tyrant the Pharoah with.

[RevolutionThroughReason]

I do not believe it was allowed to begin with. Slavery existed when the Quran came down but there is no evidence that the believers had slaves. The believers were not the only people living in Mecca and the Arabian peninsula, in fact most were Pagans and some were jews.

The only reference used by some to imply that the believers (including the prophet) had slaves is the ma malakat aymanukum verses.

2.177. It is not righteousness that ye turn your faces Towards east or West; but it is righteousness- to believe in Allah and the Last Day, and the Angels, and the Book, and the Messengers; to spend of your substance, out of love for Him, for your kin, for orphans, for the needy, for the wayfarer, for those who ask, and for the ransom of slaves; to be steadfast in prayer, and practice regular charity; to fulfil the contracts which ye have made; and to be firm and patient, in pain (or suffering) and adversity, and throughout all periods of panic. Such are the people of truth, the Allah.fearing.

Surely the prophet was among the most righteous and surely he would be the first to free whatever slaves he can free and the last to own and enslave anyone.

Nay, I swear by this city... We verily have created man in an atmosphere... But he hath not attempted the Ascent, Ah, what will convey unto thee what the Ascent is! It is to free a slave, And to feed in the day of hunger, An orphan near of kin, Or some poor wretch in misery. And to be of those who believe and exhort one another to perseverance and exhort one another to pity

Surely the prophet would the be the first who would be the most fearful to fail the ascent(on the day of judgement) and surely he would be the first to have the deeds to pass the ascent.

let's discuss this with arabic verses ....because it is also possible that translators impose their own bias into their translations.

[RevolutionThroughReason]

I speak Arabic and what you say really does not make sense. What you are trying to say is that malakat aymanukum is the same as malakat. You want to marginalize the aymanukum part as if its just there for emphasis. Yet the Quran used the same term elsehwere for oath but somehow here its only emphasis. Sounds desperate.

.

la2 ......3ala talak 2ayatin 3ando sabeq 3ala aqsam wa 7uluf, 3ando ghair sabaq minha

2akid la2 bata3ref 3arabi

[RevolutionThroughReason]

Bigmo .........iyna ru7et?

[IamDZJ]

Egyptian woman shatters social taboo amid sex scandal
Published March 9th, 2005 - 17:49 GMT

In Egypt, a real-life soap opera has come to life.


It all started when a pious soap star has been hit with a very public paternity suit by a young woman who claims she bore the actor’s child after having a relationship with him. Subsequently, the mother filed the paternity suit, stirring an unprecedented scandal and prompting national debate over the issue of secret marriage contracts young people are using in order to have sexual relations in a religious society.


Hind el-Hinnawy, 27, says she and Ahmed al-Fishawy, a 24-year-old TV star, met on a television set and entered into an Urfi marriage, an unregistered contract often used as cover for affairs. This unofficial arrangement has become popular as a way to evade Islam’s ban on premarital sex.


To make things even juicier, Fishawy is a public moralist and follower of Amr Khaled, a charismatic Muslim televangelist. Al-Fishawy is an actor known for public piety. Son of actor Farouq al-Fishawy, he is famous for his role in soap Amma Nour, sitcom Shabab Online and host of Yalla Ya Shabab, in which he gave advise to Muslim youth. It seems, however, that this time around he is in need of some good advise…


Hind el-Hinnawy's story might have provoked little more than gossip in other places. But in Egypt with its widespread taboo on sex talk and deep respect for family values, she generated a full-blown scandal when she went public with her decision to bear a child as a single mother and try to prove a popular young actor was the father. Almost nine months after she sued, a judge has ordered DNA paternity tests.


Urfi marriages have no official contract and are often kept secret. Although a document is signed in front of witnesses, the marriage can be broken simply by destroying that paper. Such marriages have become more frequent, often for poor Egyptians who cannot afford to marry or as temporary unions for people who want to legitimize their sexual activities in a Muslim society, which has restrictions on premarital sex.


In an Urfi marriage, couples repeat the words, "We got married" and pledge commitment before Allah. Usually a paper, stating that the two are married, is written and two witnesses sign it. The Egyptian government did not recognize Urfi marriages until 2000 and the paper could be used only to prove the relationship in court. A woman could not get a divorce since the government did not recognize the marriage in the first place. Under the new personal status law passed in January 2000, however, divorces from Urfi marriages are now recognized.


Undocumented Urfi marriages are increasingly popular among Egyptian youth. The skyrocketing costs of marriage force many young couples to wait several years before they actually tie the knot. Egyptian society forbids sex before marriage, so many young people consider the Urfi marriage an ideal solution.


Urfi marriages are conducted by a Muslim cleric in the presence of two witnesses, however, they are not officially registered and are not financially binding on the man. Couples married in this way often meet in secret and avoid the expense of renting an apartment.



The Urfi marriage, however, can be problematic for the wife. If the husband leaves her without granting her a divorce, she had no legal right to seek a divorce since Urfi marriage was considered illegal under the old status law. Her husband could remarry. The wife is in a more difficult position. If the wife remarries, she can be accused of polyandry which is punishable by seven years in prison in Egypt, or she could remain single for the rest of her life.


The new Egyptian law, passed in 2000, recognizes the woman's right to seek divorce from an Urfi marriage. However, the law denies her alimony and child support.


There are also controversial, unofficial Urfi marriages, where a couple signs documents declaring themselves married. The couple does not inform their families of the marriage. Many Egyptian clerics are against this type of Urfi marriage calling it a mere cover for pre-marital sex.


El-Hinnawy, a costume designer, said when she told the actor she was pregnant, he refused to admit he was the father of the child or even that the marriage arrangement existed - so she hauled him into court. In February, a judge ordered DNA testing to prove whether el-Fishawy is the father of four-month-old Leena.

http://www.albawaba.com/news/egyptia...id-sex-scandal

This story says it all. This is what is meant by "ma malakat aymanukum" the Koran uses. It is a relationship established by oath only. Notice the parents were not aware and notice the lack of dowry or engagment. The Koran recognizes the legitimacy of this arrangement since its a mutual agreement by oath. However it does not recognize it as a marriage, since marriage requires financial protection and a place to settle


4.24. Also (prohibited are) women already married, except those whom your right hands possess: Thus hath Allah ordained (Prohibitions) against you: Except for these, all others are lawful, provided ye seek (them in marriage) with gifts from your property,- desiring chastity, not lust, seeing that ye derive benefit from them, give them their dowers (at least) as prescribed; but if, after a dower is prescribed, agree Mutually (to vary it), there is no blame on you, and Allah is All-knowing, All-wise. 25. If any of you have not the means wherewith to wed free believing women, they may wed believing girls from among those whom your right hands possess: And Allah hath full knowledge about your faith. Ye are one from another: Wed them with the leave of their owners, and give them their dowers, according to what is reasonable: They should be chaste, not lustful, nor taking paramours: when they are taken in wedlock, if they fall into shame, their punishment is half that for free women. This (permission) is for those among you who fear sin; but it is better for you that ye practise self-restraint. And Allah is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful.

This translation uses free believing women and owners, the Koran never said that and actually said families not owners. The translation reads "free believing women", the Koran actually uses chaste women(Muhsinat)This is because the Sunni authroities understood MMA as slaves. And this has opened the door for vast amounts of slavery and abuse in Islamic history. These interpretation are wrong.

Slavery is prohibited in the Koran and it was one of the accusation Moses accused the Pharaoh of. Also Joseph's brothers wanted to sell him into slavery out of envy and spite.

Moses would not have reminded the Pharoah of his enslavement of the Israelites if nothing was wrong with slavery, and the Koran would not encourage freeing slave if it did not see the practice as evil and oppressive.

All of this because of a misunderstanding of the term"ma malakat aymanukum" usually translates as right hand possess. Right hand meaning oath.

MMA is a concubine and not a slave. They are worlds apart. One is an agreed arrangement, the other is rape.

The Koran understood that MMA arrangement can carry risk since its an agreement that can easily be denied by one party. It warned against enetering such arrangement desiring lust only and encouraged elevating that agreement to a proper marriage by dowry and informing family. The above case shows us why.MMA therfore is exactly what is commonly understood as urfi marriages, marriages established by oath only between and man and woman to be husband and wife and be marries. That explains why the Koran sees that arrangment, thought legitimate, as an inferior arrangment that can pave the way for abuse. Its only to be done if there is no other way to marry.

what garbage is this?? you can get married to each other but he doesn't have to support you or even rent you an apartment. he can leave you when he can afford a wife and you may either wait for his mercy to divorce you when his living standards improve or remain single for the rest of your life. seriously?? muslims would rather have this??
and the 27 year old woman who married that 24 year old kid should have been jailed for child abuse. and then they want to know what you mean when you say islam is not fair to women.
this is an islamic version of prostitution that comes with no benefits.

[Bigmo]

la2 ......3ala talak 2ayatin 3ando sabeq 3ala aqsam wa 7uluf, 3ando ghair sabaq minha

2akid la2 bata3ref 3arabi

what is this 3 and 2 and 6 numbers you keep using.

lay ma tatakalam zai ilnas wala inta mush arif kaif tatakalam araby?

[RevolutionThroughReason]

what is this 3 and 2 and 6 numbers you keep using.

lay ma tatakalam zai ilnas wala inta mush arif kaif tatakalam araby?

you clearly don't speak arabic, firstly if you're trying (and I'm assuming this is what you were trying to say).

you say "inta ma 3arif bil 3arabi" , "3arif kaif tatakalam" makes NO sense, because 3arif is descriptive noun, if you wanted to say it correctly, you'd say "inta la2 bat3aref 2an tatkalam 3arabi".

this "mush mush" stuff is Egyptian slang, NOT Arabic.



the 3 and 2's represent Arabic letters like 'ayn and hamza.

You sir are a total fake.

[Bigmo]

you clearly don't speak arabic, firstly if you're trying (and I'm assuming this is what you were trying to say).

you say "inta ma 3arif bil 3arabi" , "3arif kaif tatakalam" makes NO sense, because 3arif is descriptive noun, if you wanted to say it correctly, you'd say "inta la2 bat3aref 2an tatkalam 3arabi".

this "mush mush" stuff is Egyptian slang, NOT Arabic.



the 3 and 2's represent Arabic letters like 'ayn and hamza.

You sir are a total fake.

No arab speaks classical Arabic. And what does this has to do with the topic? What exactly do you mean by fake? I am Arab.

[Bigmo]

what garbage is this?? you can get married to each other but he doesn't have to support you or even rent you an apartment. he can leave you when he can afford a wife and you may either wait for his mercy to divorce you when his living standards improve or remain single for the rest of your life. seriously?? muslims would rather have this??
and the 27 year old woman who married that 24 year old kid should have been jailed for child abuse. and then they want to know what you mean when you say islam is not fair to women.
this is an islamic version of prostitution that comes with no benefits.

Exactly, this is why MMA are discouraged in the Quran since their is no financial protection for the woman. But is based on mutual consent and the couple did make an oath to God that they are husband and wife. The Quran warned against entering such arrangement for lust only and encouraged MMA relationships to elevate to a proper marriage by informing families and then arranging a dowry.

As far as divorce their is no prohibition for a woman to seek divorce if she wants. The idea that divorce is only in the hands of a man is not Quranic.

[RevolutionThroughReason]

No arab speaks classical Arabic. And what does this has to do with the topic? What exactly do you mean by fake? I am Arab.

No Arab blurs Egyptian with three different dialects at the same time, you mixed Formal Arabic, with Shami Arabic with Egyptian. NO Arab speaks that way.

and if you're not speaking formal Arabic, why are you saying Takalam? in informal colloquial Arabic you say either ta7addeth or 7aki.



So again you clearly are not Arab and you're fraudulently misrepresenting the actual language of the Qur'an

It shows your understanding of the distinction between the topics of these verses is absent.

[RevolutionThroughReason]

Exactly, this is why MMA are discouraged in the Quran since their is no financial protection for the woman. But is based on mutual consent and the couple did make an oath to God that they are husband and wife. The Quran warned against entering such arrangement for lust only and encouraged MMA relationships to elevate to a proper marriage by informing families and then arranging a dowry.

As far as divorce their is no prohibition for a woman to seek divorce if she wants. The idea that divorce is only in the hands of a man is not Quranic.

Your analysis and the narrative you're giving to us here is also not in the Qur'an.

[Bigmo]

Your analysis and the narrative you're giving to us here is also not in the Qur'an.

You have not quoted one verse of the Quran till now so I am not really that concerned about ur arguments. They seem personal attacks and personal smears and insisting on things about me as if you know me.

I am interested in what the Quran has to say. There is no reason Quranically to deny a woman's right to seek divorce. The Quran did not tells us that divorce should only be for men.

The Koran would not encourage and even order the believers to free slaves only to order the messenger of the Quran to own slaves of his own. And if the Quran ordered the prophet to treat prisoners well, the prophet would not trun around and sell them off as slaves and even order their execution. This was planted by later political authorities who wanted to legalize slavery and prisoner abuse.

[RevolutionThroughReason]

You have not quoted one verse of the Quran till now so I am not really that concerned about ur arguments. They seem personal attacks and personal smears and insisting on things about me as if you know me.

I am interested in what the Quran has to say. There is no reason Quranically to deny a woman's right to seek divorce. The Quran did not tells us that divorce should only be for men.

The Koran would not encourage and even order the believers to free slaves only to order the messenger of the Quran to own slaves of his own. And if the Quran ordered the prophet to treat prisoners well, the prophet would not trun around and sell them off as slaves and even order their execution. This was planted by later political authorities who wanted to legalize slavery and prisoner abuse.

Neither have you, you have merely quoted things which are completely irrelevant to your narration.