Why do we fear Secularism (Secularism from a Liberal Muslims Perspective)

[haviZsultan]

Havi,

I think that the general conclusions I have drawn is that whatever sort of governance the whole of or the segments of the Muslim world come to, if they become truly autonomous and capable of self determination, will be something all their own and wont have to resemble Western post enlightment secularism.

Just as the Western world may have painted its DaVinci, figuratively, an autonomous East may find that it paints its own Rembrandt.

In the ancient world there were Caesers and Pharoahs and Shahs and Khans... each offering their own flavor of benevolent, at times, centralized autocracy.

It is inevitable that cross fertilization of ideologies will occur when the dust settles. Really, a smart people will take the best of multiple concepts and apply them to governance in a way that solves these many quandries.

Islam, in and of itself appears to more closely resemble a semitic prophetic tradition compared with its Romanized brethren religions. Take for instance, the fact that the Prophets in the Biblical text worship by all putting their forehead on the ground and greet their flock with "Peace be with you." They do rituals similar to itikaaf and they also fast for 30 day sand perform ablution like rituals.

Just as its Romanized and Grecofied brethren religions produced their own way of dealing with law systems, the societies and nation statesw where Islam is practiced will find their own voice.

There will be hints and flecks of contributions made by this new empire's contribution as well. Just as the name Sikander has remained amongst the Pashtuns through the centuries, so too will some element of America's perhaps brief stay???

But the issue here is that a group of people want to force the Muslim peoples to figuratvely repaint a cheap knock off of a Da Vinci instead of painting their own masterpiece.

Quad E Azam's deluded philosophies and compromises of native principles and ideologies are what has inevitably led to the failed state of Pakistan, which is neither a secular state nor a democracy... but instread a feudal state on life support. America is the dialysis machine for the ailing end stage Pakistan due to its inability to prioritize justice and foment meritocracy. He also contradicts himself in his own words repeatedly, adding to the confusion that his ideologies and life style and thooughts are some equivalency to the founding fathers of America.

The common words I heard when comparing the speech of folks in East, whether it be Arab states, Pakistan, Afghanistan, or India with the West was that my friends from the orient were fixated on the word "my haqq and my justice." If you gave them that, they were happy just to get this. They were not fixated on whether their daughter could go on to sing in Afghan Idol or whether their son could be the next Al Pacino and whether their state scholars and local mullahs would permit them to reach this potential.

In its own state design, within its own confines and its exploding population... resting within the lines drawn by some Britishers, Pakistanis have consigned themselves to severely limiting their prospects for success. The numbers just dont support a flourishing nuclear power.

In regard to states that have made tweaks to their system and proven that there are even different flavors of secularism that may propel a state forward, take China for instance. Americans for generations crowed how their freedom and liberties would continue to keep them on the economic upsloap. China found its own voice and while it remains far far behind the US, it has a system that functions for itself.

I apologize for missing your post before... I don't know how I missed it.

By claiming we want the Muslims to paint a knock-off Da Vinci you continue to claim that Secularism is a concept alien to Islam. A fundamental difference in our opinion which makes it difficult for us to agree. Though I do believe we can learn from the West. If they have a superior system than ours why not try to implement it with adjustments for a highly emotional Muslim populace to our society. Majoritarianism will still rule even with a Secular system... so if it is unacceptable for 90% of the population to drink, then the drinks will only be available in an enclosed environment where it can reach the 10% that do drink.

More than 1 Billion Muslims today live in abject poverty because we failed to modernize ourselves with changing times, to accept equality and justice as important concepts in our society.

I will disagree with you on Quaid E Azam's philosophy... he was a secular Muslim who did more for Muslims than anyone else could have. By giving Muslims of South Asia Pakistan he saved them from years of discrimination. We could have lived together in India yes, but the Indian did not give our areas self rule. (For more information read Jaswant Singh's book on partition which blames the partition on the Congress and call's Jinnah a secularist who was forced to go for an Islamic State due to utter bias)... I think Jinnah understood that a state could not function if it didn't manage to accept its people were equal. If it continued to be divided on the base of religion and ethnicity... pity that those that came later tore apart his dreams.

Again my haq or justice also refers to the right of Pakistani Christian to practice her religion freely without being framed on false charges on the Blasphemy law. Justice also means that Ahmedi's are not slaughtered or not permitted to go to their mosques because they believe in another prophet. It also means a man must have liberty to believe what he wishes, to do with his life what he wants. If a person wants to drink or dance it is not our responsibility to stop him... Its his choice

"To you be your Faith, and to me mine." Quran 109:6

To you be your faith... to you be your ideas... do what you want. Your Religion, your beliefs have nothing to do with me... Islam and Secularism again are not incompatible... disagreement on this key point is pushing our debate back to point 1...

So I reiterate, let the Muslim masses find their own voice and own solution. No need for us "enlightened" ideologues to give them a supposed taste of what we think is best for them.

This is the truth. Eventually the Muslim masses will have to find their own solution to their problems. We cannot promote secularism to this highly emotional population that has been taught from birth that Secularism is against Islamic concepts.

In a way you are right. Let the people decide... is as the saying goes... but the people are bombarded by Islamist ideology from left right and center. If we introduce a new ideology and present it at least its there for the people to accept or reject. I am not imposing Secularism on the population as Islamist thought has been imposed. But at least the idea should be there...

so that is shariah? because we both know it is not. under shariah, the perpetrators of that crime would be killed. you are trying to put people who call themselves muslims under a microscope while you know full well that under a correct shariah system, these people would be killed. people who wish to emulate these acts would be discouraged from doing so. there are thousands of murders and rapes in the US alone that i could blame on secularism, if that is the game you want to play.

and we also know that pakistan doesn't enforce shariah. if they did, every leader in its history would of been beheaded.

It is not, but not all people agree on what Shariah is, brother. Would these people really be killed in a correct Shariah system? What is a correct Shariah system? You will find when you impose a 'correct Shariah system' according to you some people will continue to claim it is an UnIslamic system or proper Shariah has not been imposed. Example of this is the Swat deal with militants.

Pakistan has come very close to imposing full shariah during the time of Zia Ul Haq who was the biggest Islamist in the history of Pakistan... plus we imposed shariah in Swat when the militants demanded it to appease them. It still didn't appease them because they wanted another version of Shariah. (You see the problem this talk of imposing Shariah causes)

In the end all this talk of imposing shariah comes down to increasing one's power and influence. Look at what is going on in Pakhtunkhwa. Militant commanders exist for every tribal area, every region of Khyber Pakhtunkhwa, Wali Ur Rehman and Hakeemullah rule in South Waziristan, Faqir Mohammed in Bajaur, Mullah Toofan in Kurram, Omar Khalid in Mohmand... each striving to increase his influence and power and impose his version of Shariah and Islam... they fool the people in the name of Islam... we know this but do the people know? They are foolish and misled.

The question is with thousands of factions in Islamist thought which 'Shariah' is the right Shariah Randolph? By focusing on the question and by focusing on which Islam to impose on the population we are wasting our time and resources while we could be spending them on building up a powerful, prosperous society. Instead all we care about today is ensuring we somehow impose on others that our "Islam is the right Islam, yours is wrong"... just think about the waste of resources and time this causes.

When you can't get ahead of simple things as what is supposed to be the length of your Shalwar and should it be coming to our ankles how can we even think of dealing with bigger things.

[roadrunner]

our brother barakzai said it all.

if the 2 concepts are incompatible, than islamic law has no value or legal right in a secular authority and the same thing the other way around.

the thing is that secularists think muslims are stupid by saying that islams value is not decreased in a secular state. our laws don't apply but the value of the religion is not eroded? you could say the same thing about satanists. our religion has the same worth as satanism in a secular country.

Islams values won't change as long as secularists allow you to practise religion freely.

The only thing is islamists won't be able to dominate or discriminate against others which is a big plus for secular leaders.

[roadrunner]

Secularism does not serve atheists you fool.

Secularism serves everyone, atheists, Muslims, satanists, buddhists.

[roadrunner]

so you think it is ok for 98% of the population to be discriminated against just so they can have a system which is against them?

seculerism has no place what so ever in majority muslim countries.
in Muslim countries islam plays a role in every aspect of life be it politics,education,or whatever and this is the right of muslims.
no one can deny them their rights.

Secularism does not discriminate against Muslims you fool.

It applies laws where everyone is treated equally.

[haviZsultan]

so you think it is ok for 98% of the population to be discriminated against just so they can have a system which is against them?

seculerism has no place what so ever in majority muslim countries.
in Muslim countries islam plays a role in every aspect of life be it politics,education,or whatever and this is the right of muslims.
no one can deny them their rights.

Shadowgovernor. I know you have your convictions and your beliefs but I would advise you to try and think of things critically. Today Muslims have become the greatest threat to Muslims and are killing each other with impunity. Wouldn't any system be better than this?

Its because you have been taught from childhood that the concepts of Secularism and Islam are incompatible that you react so negatively to the concept I am introducing. I suggest you go through the my previous posts and replies to Randolph and BarakzaiAbdali to learn the concepts and understand that Secularism will not devalue Islam. Our religion grants all of us the freedom to choose.

If we grant everyone the freedom to choose we will prosper and become powerful rather than being divided and confused.

[roadrunner]

Shadowgoverner, I refuse to communicate with someone as stupid as you.

Secularism serves everyone including Muslims.

[roadrunner]

The majority of americans are Christian. It is a secular society.

If they can live with being discriminated against, or rather being treated equally by the law, why can't you?

Do you live in the west?

[roadrunner]

Seculerism does discriminate against muslims in majority muslim countries,pakistan is a good example.

secularism does not discriminate against Muslims. Give one example you stupid man.

[roadrunner]

I don't know why I'm bothering with this idiot.

http://abcnews.go.com/sections/us/Da...ll_010718.html

Majority in the us say they're Christian.

[roadrunner]

not just muslims but all religious folks.
no need for examples.
when you put in place a system which goes against the wishes,values and way of life of the majority it is discrimination.
so implementing it on a over majority muslim country is discrimination by itself.

Do you know what discrimination means?

It's like talking to a baboon. DO YOU LIVE IN THE WEST?

[roadrunner]

hey fool
christians are not as adherent as muslims and america is hardly seculerist.
the votes revolve around the will of christians and jews.

america is not a good example to bring,europe is seculer but even here the margenalised christians have their parties which again are majority.
parties such as CDU of germany.

how about the only democracy in middel east called Israel?

Israel is not secular you idiot. Germany IS secular in spite of being Christian. Americans identify themselves as majority Christian whether they follow good biblical beliefs is not relevant. America is a secular country as is Germany.

[roadrunner]

seculerism discriminates in a muslim country against majority if the people are told they cant have their way of life in politics and education.

what are you a thickhead homosexual moron?

Your too stupid to understand what discrimination means and you call me thickheaded

[roadrunner]

Look stupid.

Here is a list of Christian majority countries. The us is 85% Christian Germany is 83% Christian, BOTH are secular.
http://www.adherents.com/largecom/com_christian.html

You extremist baboons always lie to convince others. Is that what religion tells you to do?

I don't care about Israel. It's not a secular country and it is a failure IMO.

[Al Hanif]

Look stupid.

Here is a list of Christian majority countries. The us is 85% Christian Germany is 83% Christian, BOTH are secular.
http://www.adherents.com/largecom/com_christian.html

You extremist baboons always lie to convince others. Is that what religion tells you to do?

I don't care about Israel. It's not a secular country and it is a failure IMO.

Dude, this website is Christian propaganda.

It is written 98% of French people are Christians, I almost died laughing when reading this.

There are maybe 10% of Christians and 5% of them are practising.

There are 10% of muslims in France.

I know what I'm talking about. I was born and raised in France.

[roadrunner]

Dude, this website is Christian propaganda.

It is written 98% of French people are Christians, I almost died laughing when reading this.

There are maybe 10% of Christians and 5% of them are practising.

There are 10% of muslims in France.

I know what I'm talking about. I was born and raised in France.

It was the quickest website that showed all the statistics. They are correct. I do not have time to prove to apes that 83% of Frenchmen and women think they are Christian.