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  • Another Journey

    I invite you to join me on my sojourn through the Quran and the hadith. Its been many moons since I have had the chance to revise them and I began again today. I look forward to any criticism/comments.

    The fatiha.
    Not too long ago Mostafa posted an article with links to other papers that allege the opener of the Quran was not to be found in ibn Masud's codex. I posted Bergman's landmark paper that discussed the most current evidence to the contrary, including ibn Nadim seeing a copy of ibn Masud's codex containing the fatiha.

    The most interesting line of the fatiha is the last ayah in which the supplicant asks God to not make him amongst those that went astray or earned God's wrath. Yusuf Ali makes it a point to indicate that ghayr in this sentence refers not to the path itself but to the classes of people. Other translators put emphasis on the paths of each group.

    The Bukhari hadith indicate that early scholars and companions grouped the Christians into "those that stray" and the Jews into "those that earned God's wrath." This is in the 6th volume of the Bukhari hadith dealing with exegesis of the Quran. The key here though, is that the hadith appears to generalize these two classes beyond the apparent implicit reference to Christians and Jews.

    On another note, the Prophet of God (S) refers to this chapter as the greatest in the whole Quran. The hadith in the 6th volume that discusses fatiha dispells any of the contrived theories of the orientalists that attempt to separate fatiha from the Quran in their outlandish theories. In the hadith, the Prophet refers to fatiha as "saba al mathaani" translating to "7 oft repeated verses." This phrase is found in the Quran itself. Therefore, when the Quran and the Prophet use the phrase: "the saba al mathani (fatiha) and the grand Quran" it in no way supports the idea that ibn Masud purposefully seperated this surah out of his personal Quranic collection. The hadith itself starts off with the Prophet telling the companion that he will tell the companion about the greatest surah in the Quran itself. This proves that when the companions and the Quran refer to fatiha separately from the Quran, its mainly because fatiha has its won high stature, not because it is separate revelation from the Quran.

    The first section of Surah Baqrah is also very deep. Right at the outset the Quran confirms to the reader: If you have been searching for the book that is from God, here it is. Moroever, here are the characteristics of a believer.

    There are two powerful metaphors that translators (I read through 5 different translations to try and gauge the meaning) give slightly different alterations to. These metaphors are of the man that lights a fire and of a dark thundercloud.

    In the preceding verses the character of a hypocrite is fleshed out. It is intriguing to note that in the modern era, both camps of people in the Muslim world refer to these ayaahs to label eachother. How I think the argument can be resolved is based on the fact that the correct group has a deep true belief in God (as per the ayaahs themselves). Who can judge this though? Only God himself. I do think that it is rather telling that the language of war has taken on Orwellian meaning these days. War is peace and peace is war. Those that are proponents of war shout that they simply want to spread peace. The Quran itself warns the hypocrite that this terminology of theirs is beguiling. It directly says: "When they are told to stop making mischief on Earth, they say: "Why we only want to make peace!."

    The metaphor of the fire is powerful. Yusuf Ali and Mawdudi both translate it in such a way where the fire is lit and God either strips the fire of light or takes away the man who lit it's ability to see the light of the fire. The Penguin classic translation simply translates it as "God puts out the fire." If we take Yusuf Ali's translation as the accurate one, then the deeper meaning could be that the man lit a fire (true belief is like that fire that renders both light and heat). Generally, to the engineer and the physicist, heat is sort of a byproduct to ensure that energy is conserved. Therefore, if you translate mechanical to electrical energy or vice versa, or if you instigate a chemical reaction for a purpose, the ideal situation is one in which energy conversion occurs efficiently and the amount of heat released is limited. Therefore, the man's purpose was to light a fire with which to see. If we take Ali's translation, then fire stripped of light is simply heat. Therefore, the hypocrites false belief is like fire stripped of light. If we take the simple translation of the fire itself being put out, then the point is that the fire is belief, providing both guidance (light) and warmth (a purposeful benefit of faith). On the other hand, if we take Mawdud's rendering where the man's eyes loses the ability to see the light then its a commentary on how pure belief (represented by the fire) escapes the hypocrite.

    The next ayaah, as rendered by Ali and Irving discusses a rain laden thundercloud. Pikthall neglect the word cloud and describe a rain storm. Perhaps then, the absence of the storm is the mephator for the true believer. After all, if the rain laden thundercloud or rain storm is absent, then it is a sunny day. God goes on to discuss how these hypocrites have limited sight and limit their own hearing when they try to plug their ears to drown out the terrifying thunder. The believer on the other hand has constant light that does not blind him or her and his day may be calm and temperate with steady pleasant sounds. One translator implies that God surrounds the hypocrites like this thunder storm. The others generally take the more soft meaning which indicates that God's mercy even surrounds the hypocrite and preserves them even in this terrifying situation. Another interpretation might be that the believer is focused on the benefit the rain will bring and takes good shelter, with little fear of the thunder and lightening. The hypocrite on the other hand is caught out in the open and fears the nature of what this belief structure means to his way of life and his decrepit and evil ways.
    Last edited by BarakzaiAbdali; 01-21-2012, 10:17 PM.
    "2 crackheads don't become any better or stronger by sharing the same crack pipe." - Greatest PF quote

  • #2
    Salam

    Yusuf Ali was a Qadiani, according to my research. His interpretation I take with a grain of Salt.

    I have used the phonetic search engines on the internet for "saba al mathaani' in the Quran and couldn't find any. Can't recall ever reading it either.

    My own interpretation of the Thunderclap is that the the disbeliever fears something that does not harm him.
    It is something to think about...the sound of thunder is a mighty one. Pagans attribute lightening and thunder to their highest gods, the king of gods, odin, zues, indra etc.
    The similitude of those who hear the words of god is as that as those who hear the thunderclap - they instinctively fear it and would rather put their fingers in their ears then hear it. This is my humble opinion.

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by Alchemist View Post
      Salam

      Yusuf Ali was a Qadiani, according to my research. His interpretation I take with a grain of Salt.

      I have used the phonetic search engines on the internet for "saba al mathaani' in the Quran and couldn't find any. Can't recall ever reading it either.

      My own interpretation of the Thunderclap is that the the disbeliever fears something that does not harm him.
      It is something to think about...the sound of thunder is a mighty one. Pagans attribute lightening and thunder to their highest gods, the king of gods, odin, zues, indra etc.
      The similitude of those who hear the words of god is as that as those who hear the thunderclap - they instinctively fear it and would rather put their fingers in their ears then hear it. This is my humble opinion.
      Salamoona brother.

      Regarding Yusuf Ali, reading his bio called Searching for Solace and then reading his forward and his footnotes, it becomes apparent that he left behind his family's roots much like Akbar Meherally. Ali was not actually Qadiani but rather born into a Bohra Shiite family. I think the proof that he has no relation to the Qadiani is that he discusses how the anjuman of the ahmadiyyah were attempting to put forward their own translation and uses language to indicate he is separate from that.

      Rather, some feel that Ali's greatest mortal failing was his rigid support for Britania and the crown even against the mujahideen of his era and the those that supported the Ottomon Caliphate against British intrigues. For instance, he opposed Muhammad Jauhaar. Ali's belief on this was that if the British left India that a hindu dominated India had been built up and armed by the British to the point that the Muslims would suffer greatly. The issue was that he went so far as to translate propaganda for the British against the Turks. Contrast this with convert Pikthall who even gave up his pension and was maligned by the British for his lack of patriotism when he refused to support their intrigues.

      Moroever, Yusuf Ali refers to the various recitations by Ubay ibn Kaab and makes many references to Sunni hadith scholar literature. For that reason, it seems he preferred the sunni schools of thought.

      The other issue that some have with Ali was his attempt to make some issues like extreme capitalistic banking practices as Islamic acceptable.

      Also, forgive my lack of citation for saba mathani

      In the Quran its found in surah 15 verse 87.

      In the hadith literature it is found in the 6th volume of Bukhari and is at the near very front.
      "2 crackheads don't become any better or stronger by sharing the same crack pipe." - Greatest PF quote

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      • #4
        Also of note, I think the reason I still appreciate Ali is that he pored his heart and soul into rendering the Quranic text into the highest and most melodious form of English speech so that the reader could get a very small glimpse of the beauty contained in the grandeur of the classic Arabic.

        He makes very informative footnotes. For instance, read his footnote on the verse regarding the status of the wives of the Prophet. He had obviously been in touch with the hadith literature of sunni origin in that he directly cites one of the readings of Ubaay ibn Kaab in which Ubay would also read "And he (the prophet) is like their father (the believers). This does severe damage to the Christian missionary attacks that our scholars do not know about the seven Ahruf of the Quran.

        Read also his tafsir on the the ayaah that discusses the foundation verses of the Quran and the allegorical verses. He cites a famous sunni jurist of the classical era that sheds wonderful light on a qiraat reading that gives an alternate but pertinent meaning to the ayaah.
        "2 crackheads don't become any better or stronger by sharing the same crack pipe." - Greatest PF quote

        Comment


        • #5
          "My own interpretation of the Thunderclap is that the the disbeliever fears something that does not harm him.
          It is something to think about...the sound of thunder is a mighty one. Pagans attribute lightening and thunder to their highest gods, the king of gods, odin, zues, indra etc.
          The similitude of those who hear the words of god is as that as those who hear the thunderclap - they instinctively fear it and would rather put their fingers in their ears then hear it. This is my humble opinion."

          Thanks for this discussion! I found this the more difficult misaal to think through when I tried to gauge deeper meaning. I think what ties it together is the part where God indicates he could strip such beings of their sight and hearing if he wanted to!
          Last edited by BarakzaiAbdali; 01-21-2012, 11:05 PM.
          "2 crackheads don't become any better or stronger by sharing the same crack pipe." - Greatest PF quote

          Comment


          • #6
            That Ali would write against jihad is a clear sign that his beliefs were more aligned towards the founder of Qadianism. They too reject many of the miracles described in the Quran according to the rationalism of the "enlightened" intellectuals of Europeans in their own times. I also do no think that Yusuf Ali's over simplified translation has any aesthetic appeal to it.


            Thank you for the reference. Al Fatiha was revealed to the last messenger of Allah during Isra and Miraj, at the same time when the five time prayer was made mandatory upon believers.

            I would recommend Tafsi Ibn Kabir. You can find pdfs of it on google. or Islam Awakened which shows 13+ translations of every aya on the same page.

            I have read somewhere that - The Path is One but the Ways many.

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by Alchemist View Post
              That Ali would write against jihad is a clear sign that his beliefs were more aligned towards the founder of Qadianism. They too reject many of the miracles described in the Quran according to the rationalism of the "enlightened" intellectuals of Europeans in their own times. I also do no think that Yusuf Ali's over simplified translation has any aesthetic appeal to it.


              Thank you for the reference. Al Fatiha was revealed to the last messenger of Allah during Isra and Miraj, at the same time when the five time prayer was made mandatory upon believers.

              I would recommend Tafsi Ibn Kabir. You can find pdfs of it on google. or Islam Awakened which shows 13+ translations of every aya on the same page.

              I have read somewhere that - The Path is One but the Ways many.
              From what I gather in his tafsir, he wasnt against jihad per se, in fact he does not water down the verses on it. He was the one that gave a charged translation to the ayaah that says "and gather your steeds of war..."

              Rather, and I agree with your negative view of his activity... he viewed the Indian Muslim insurrection as misdirected in terms of what it would achieve (in his view a hindu dominanted India as the British had taken many Parsis and Hindus and had created a new societal post Mughal structure that over turned the established Muslim dominance).

              What I mean is that his translation does not appear to rebuke or misguide someone like Wazir Akbar who could ably throw out the British in a Muslim dominated country like Afghanistan.

              But I fully understand your view that its hard to reconcile someone that pandered so much to the crown to the point that he tried to destabilize the Caliphate with a reliable translation.
              "2 crackheads don't become any better or stronger by sharing the same crack pipe." - Greatest PF quote

              Comment


              • #8
                I know he interprets some miracles as allegorical such as the splitting of the moon...an attribute of men of "Rationalism"...

                What do you think of this:
                Unfaithful Translation By Yusuf Ali

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by Alchemist View Post
                  I know he interprets some miracles as allegorical such as the splitting of the moon...an attribute of men of "Rationalism"...

                  What do you think of this:
                  Unfaithful Translation By Yusuf Ali
                  Thanks wrorre

                  Ill take a look at the ayaahs and footnotes and see what his contentions are.
                  "2 crackheads don't become any better or stronger by sharing the same crack pipe." - Greatest PF quote

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Barakzai, please add Dr Muhsin khan / Hilali translation? Salaam.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      I have at home the translation by Yusuf Ali and by the Fahad Complex , the later one is yet for me the better /closer one.
                      High achievement always takes place in the framework of high expectation.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Floating around in Christian polemic circles is the assertion that the Prophet (PBUH) had participated in idolatory before receiving the revelations. The basis for this is a single statement attributed to family members of Zaid the Hanif in which the assertion is put forth that Zaid had already accepted the concept of monotheism while the Prophet was still finding and stumbling on his way through the idolatory of Mecca. While the missionaries attempt tout this tradition with glee, they choose to hide the discussion of ibn ishaaq that offers greater detail that the Prophet was of a tender age (still but a boy) when he respectfully took meat that had been sacrificed at the kabaa when it was full of idols, to Zaid the Hanif. From the age of understanding onwards the same tradition asserts that the Prophet never partook in the sacrements of polytheism.

                        A hadith towards the front of Bukhari, in the section, how the divine revelation intiated, gives us information on the Prophet of God's mental genesis (i.e. glimpses of his spiritual state before he was the apostle). Just as Abraham searched, so too did the Prophet. The Quran never rebukes the one who searches for God and finds him. The tradition of Aisha describes in detail that the Prophet would not go to the Kabaa, but rather to the Cave in which he would eventually meet Gabriel. There, he would meditate and worship in seclusion. This was his habit, rather than visiting the Kabah.

                        It is rather interesting that no qualm is made by these sanctimonious missionaries when it comes to John the Baptist preceding the Christ and baptizing him. Nor do they find problems with the fact that the Christ of their new testament frequented the Temple replete with money changers and dominated by a corrupt Sanhedrin. That in no way reflects on Christ's renewel of the message. Nor do they make much a fuss about Moses being a near son of Pharoah in his own house and finding the way back to his people.

                        So in this same way, this key hadith, describing how the divine revelation initiated, in Volume 1 of Bukhari gives us an intimate view of the Prophet before he became the Messenger. What it offers us is a view of an individual who, in his age of understanding, had already found solace and guidance away from the agora like pantheon to the Gods that the Meccans had made of this ancient house built by Abaraham. He, like Christ cleansing the temple of the money changers, would return in a blaze of glory to cleanse this House of God of these monsterious insults to God. Eventually Along the way, before he attained the greatness for which he was destined, Buhaira the Monk, Zaid the Hanif, and the cousin of Khadija Bibi served amongst those that would recognize his promise and furthered his trajectory.

                        So to summarize, these hadith and the narrations of ibn Ishaq provide a view into how God would guide his future Prophet towards him and purify him. As a youth, he was a Meccan and lived amongst his people. However, Islam notes that all children are born inherently pure in their belief. Islamic penal codes take the age of understanding into account. Therefore, Salman Farsi, the early companion is in no way culpable or held accountable for being amongst the magi in his youth. This hadith of Aisha, found in Sahih Bukhari provides great detail of the Prophet's spiritual habits during his age of understanding. Namely, it shows that the Prophet found his solace and guidance in a cave far away from the Meccan house of worship. No mention is made of him taking a house idol or any other object of comfort beyond some food for his trip.
                        "2 crackheads don't become any better or stronger by sharing the same crack pipe." - Greatest PF quote

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          i doubt that god can be insulted. if god created everything, then god also created the weakness in humans and the temptations.

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                          • #14
                            god creates free will in the individual.

                            god is beyond our human perceptions of reality and creation.
                            There are people today who think that admitting God’s absolute greatness decreases the value and importance of humans in the creation, as if God and mankind are rivals competing in greatness and power. Meanwhile I feel that whenever our perception of God’s greatness increases, with it we become greater, because we are the creation of a great God.

                            Sayyid Qutb

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by faye View Post
                              i doubt that god can be insulted. if god created everything, then god also created the weakness in humans and the temptations.
                              And He created Hell.

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