Islam and Democracy

[Catya Sher]

Very interesting that you chose example of Prussian king, Frederick the Great !
[I have been to all of his palaces. He is STILL revered immensely by Germans ]

This thread looks fascinating; I am glad this came up to be explored more.

My personal idea is that Theocracy is the best way and Empires are the next best;
after them Monarchies and really there is no other possibliity for
good and right government...!

[AFG21]

The best thing of democratie is that you know how terribel the president or the minister is, it will go away in 5-10 years and you can choose someone else, whit other forums you don't have really a chois so democratie is the best option.

[randolph85]

I have been given the authority over you, and I am not the best of you. If I do well, help me; and if I do wrong, set me right. Sincere regard for truth is loyalty and disregard for truth is treachery. The weak amongst you shall be strong with me until I have secured his rights, if God wills; and the strong amongst you shall be weak with me until I have wrested from him the rights of others, if God wills. Obey me so long as I obey God and His Messenger. But if I disobey God and His Messenger, ye owe me no obedience. Arise for your prayer, God have mercy upon you.

- abu bakr


that is democracy to me. choosing those who uphold islamic values and holding those people accountable. nothing more, nothing less.

[retro]

social inequality has been in many civilisations, retro.

This is because wealth is the bedrock of control within families let alone societies.

[faye]

caste, slavery, royalty, etc..these have all been around for centuries. wealth is not the only thing, what about brute force and indoctrination?

[retro]

Islamic democracy is an oxymoron.

I agree, Islam is opposed to religious pluralism, let alone secular forms of government. As it does not permit referendums, let alone democratic elections, only "consultation".

[randolph85]

I agree, Islam is opposed to religious pluralism, let alone secular forms of government. As it does not permit referendums, let alone democratic elections, only "consultation".

nor do democratic countries allow referendums on their core laws.

[ScimitarXEdge]

nor do democratic countries allow referendums on their core laws.

exactly, the Laws on Murder stealing and other Laws cannot be repealed by Majority choice either.

[ScimitarXEdge]

Smearing is what this claim of Naturalistic Pantheist (Pan-Theism= everything is apart of One Thestic Deity), so you at most only are arguing that I'm a Sufi who believes in Wahdat al Wujud

But my views are not based on Naturalistic Pantheism; but by Logic and the Qur'an itself

http://www.islam101.com/quran/QTP/QTP030.htm

30:30 So set thy purpose (O Muhammad) for religion as a man by nature upright - the nature (framed) of Allah, in which He hath created man. There is no altering (the laws of) Allah's creation. That is the right religion, but most men know not -

So does this make the Qur'an now a document of "Naturalistic Pantheism" because it describes that Islam is derived from Natural Laws?

Individuals like Mustafa who oppose people having a say in anything, and want dictatorships, pay lip service to Islam; that's why when you argue you generally do not supply anything to back up your arguments; your ideas are hand-me downs filtered for you by dogmatic cartel who's decide what they think Islam should mean FOR YOU.

Just on simple logic; if The Creator (Allah) did not want people to be able to make decisions on how and when to apply his Laws and govern over themselves. Why are brains structured to do EXACTLY that? Even if we take your literalistic approach to how humans were created, It means this is something specifically defined by Allah(swt).

Hence your argument that Islam necessarily contradicts democracy is a total Straw Man, on both Islam and democracy. Islam because you assume that God made us to be robots with no cognizant ability to decision making, and somehow Satan intervened and gave it to us. Democracy, because you assume that in democracy "anything goes" because the majority says so. Obviously some forms of democracy in theory can be that way, but tht doesn't necessarily mean an Islamic Democracy would be that way.

Not only are you back peddling once it was shown to you that Democratic Processes exist even within the LIFE of the Nabi(saw), EVEN in regards to women. While it's true the Abbasids didn't have shura, they were also not following the example of Nabi(saw) and the Mu'tazili Scholars objected to such rule.

The Mu‘tazili4 scholar Abu Bakr al-Asam (d. 200/816) argued that the public at large must have this power: there must be a general consensus over the ruler and each person must individually give his consent

The example of Fredrick the Great doesn't guarantee the betterment of society; in fact it's very chancy, so is democracy, but at least in a democracy where people can choose to change things when they go bad, you can't under a dictatorship.


In simple terms (for individuals like you) all democracy is, is just people being able to make decisions over what happens in their world, not some guy who claims he's representing God dictating everything when really he's just peddling his own agenda.

[Alchemist]

nor do democratic countries allow referendums on their core laws.

Actually they do...they just disguise it as something else.

The Patriot Act is just one famous example...right to privacy
The ban on Hijab in France is another example...right to religious

the current war on terror should have made you aware of that when news of secret torture prisons hit the media and all "democratic" countries had a hand in it...not to mention assassinations and other illegal tactics that were legalized in the name of "national interest".

[ScimitarXEdge]

But that's the point; they can't do it directly; or else it will get repealed. Just like in Saudi Arabia which claims to "live under Shari'ah" ; they have misyar which is just a form of mut'a.

this doesn't discredit Shari'ah though nor does your example discredit the core values of democracy.

[Alchemist]

Here is a monkey like ****mitar who is so smart that he already picks out the ridiculousness of his own argument...

The example of Fredrick the Great doesn't guarantee the betterment of society; in fact it's very chancy, so is democracy but at least in a democracy where people can choose to change things when they go bad, you can't under a dictatorship.

lol

yeah "change you can believe in"... I've heard that slogan somewhere else before...hmmm...just can't remember where but it certainly did work if you are repeating it.

Democracy, because you assume that in democracy "anything goes" because the majority says so. Obviously some forms of democracy in theory can be that way, but tht doesn't necessarily mean an Islamic Democracy would be that way.

How about we try Islamic Communism?
Obviously some forms of Communism can be dictatorial but an Islamic Communist country doesn't have to be that way

But my views are not based on Naturalistic Pantheism; but by Logic and Quran

Here is a donkey who laughs at muffasireen and Ulama of deen but then unquestionably and faithfully posts any written by a translator of Qur'an ...regardless of credential...simply because the words he googled for popped up "Nature + law + Quran"

First my donkey friend...stop with the Qadiani tactics. Post the verse in it's CONTEXT!

Rome 30:29 to 30:31

Nay, the wrong-doers (merely) follow their own desires, being devoid of knowledge. But who will guide those whom Allah leaves astray? To them there will be no helpers.
So set thou thy face steadily and truly to the Faith: (establish) Allah's handiwork according to the pattern on which He has made mankind: no change (let there be) in the work (wrought) by Allah: that is the standard Religion: but most among mankind understand not.
Turn ye back in repentance to Him, and fear Him: establish regular prayers, and be not ye among those who join gods with Allah,-
Those who split up their Religion, and become (mere) Sects,- each party rejoicing in that which is with itself!

No party politics! People not following their own desires! Get it?
The only right religion is that which is established by Allah.
We don't need monkeys like you to come and tell us what is in the Qur'an and then have us "vote" for them.

Then read the verse in Arabic...Mr. I-am-half-arab.

فَأَقِمْ وَجْهَكَ لِلدِّينِ حَنِيفًا ۚ فِطْرَتَ اللَّهِ الَّتِي فَطَرَ النَّاسَ عَلَيْهَا ۚ لَا تَبْدِيلَ لِخَلْقِ اللَّهِ ۚ ذَٰلِكَ الدِّينُ الْقَيِّمُ وَلَٰكِنَّ أَكْثَرَ النَّاسِ لَا يَعْلَمُونَ

FITRA...

Allah's name is also Al Fatir The Originator, The One who creates from Nothing.
Fitra as in the original virtue!
We are born Muslims but it is our parents that change us. Culture that diverts us. Culture! which is man made and flawed. You are a product of the Culture you have been raised in ...Mr. Philly Cheesecake.


And no..I am not calling you a Sufi.
Weren't you the goof that called Rumi an alcoholic paedophile?
Don't EVER mention sufi philosophy or metaphysics...its just turns into crap in your mouth. Keep that ish to your self homie.

[Alchemist]

But that's the point; they can't do it directly; or else it will get repealed. Just like in Saudi Arabia which claims to "live under Shari'ah" ; they have misyar which is just a form of mut'a.

this doesn't discredit Shari'ah though nor does your example discredit the core values of democracy.

Directly

Indirectly


what difference does it make?

I think you've lost your way son ... you don't even know what you are arguing for any more.

[ScimitarXEdge]

so basically you're arguing a slippery slope......if we allow people choices they'll always rebel, so that's why we need Despotic rulers who pervert their own self serving agendas and tell us it is from God.

yeah that works .....NOT

[ScimitarXEdge]

oh and about fitrah

http://www.islamic-dictionary.com/index.php?word=fitrah

The normal nature or instinct of a person, animal or thing. It is used in Islamic law to refer to laws that complement or promote a certain instinct - eg cleanliness.

how ironic he quotes the verses about those who speak that which they do not know ; and then speaks blindly on that which he does not know