Do Shias believe in the complete Quran?

[Alchemist]

I might die to save loved ones or something.

what sort of question is that?

When you are ready to die for Allah alone, then we can discuss the shia/sunni differences.


I don't want to go into a tangent here, but I remember previously you criticized some things I said about mauwiyah being a b*stard. That lineage doesn't matter? If that were true, then why did Allah chose prophets from the lines of Ibrahim (alihi salam)? Also, even promient Sunni scholars will tell you that one of the conditions of being a khalifa is that they are of noble birth. This is also true of all the prophets. Even one of the signs of the mahdi is that he will be of the lineage of Muhammed (sallallahualihi wa salam).
Then fahd posted for you a couple of hadiths to indicate that "ahlul bayt" meant only the wives of the prophet. Google "hadith black cloak"...it is narrated by Aisha (radiallahu anha) and it is in the Sahih books of hadith. It will make clear to you what the real distinction is.

Second question: How did the Daughter of our Prophet (peace be upon him) die?

[Abu Hurayrah]

^ Their imams are the progeny of the Holy Prophet peace be upon him.

Apparently you believe that the Holy Prophet, peace be upon him, himself was also not infallible.

In any case, it is even accepted amongst prominent sunni scholars that the Quran was divided into the chapters that it has been arbitrarily. Certain parts of the Quran, were revealed in different occasions but merged into the same chapter. It is even widely accepted that Khalifa Uthman (a.s) separated Surah le-ilafi-Quraish from another chapter and made it its own chapter just because he was also form Quraish and wanted it to be distinct.

You keep saying "Their imam"...al mahdi is also your imam.

I do not believe that the real Mahdi is hiding in a cave for more than 10 centuries. If this is your understanding of the Mahdi, feel free to propagate it.

Furthermore, I was asked to show what the scholars of the shi's think about the authenticity and completeness of the Qur'aan, that is what I have shown. Even though you present a hoax and put yourself in a position of a judge without a burhaan, we are not talking about the chronological order of the Qur'aan.

Infallibility only is for Allah subhana wa ta'ala and the Prophets when they are conveying the religion of Allah. The prophet pbuh could make a mistake in worldly matters, and others prophets did. Since the shia imams are not prophets, they simply are not infallible and they do not know al ghayb.

The hadith of the cloak simply refelcts that the family of Ali (ra) is also part of the Ahl Bayt. I provided Quranic verses to prove that the wifes of the prophet are his Ahl Bayt.

We do not need to die to discuss the shia sunni differences, but simply use a little part of our brain. That is my opinion.

Let us not change subjects here and deal with them one by one.

wsalam

[Alchemist]

In the hadith of the cloak, didn't Umm Salma Radiallahu anha ask "Am I also of the ahlul bayt", to which the Holy Prophet, sallalahu alihi wa salam, replied "you have a good fortune"...meaning no?

So you deny this?


So you don't believe the mahdi is in a cave, but do you believe that the dajjal is on an island? Because this is what the books of Sahih Ahadith say.


Also, could you give examples from the life of Muhammed peace be upon him that suggests that he is not infalliable?


Thanks

Salam

[Alchemist]

Well if Allah (Swt) chooses a certain person over other than thats not my business. if he chose to give the descendents of ibrahim (as) special priviliages then its his choice. Remember thats prophethood and we were talking about khalifate, there is no indication in the Quran or sunnah that the khalif must be from a certain lineage. A noble birth can mean many things, it doesn't necessarily mean a certain lineage. so only the descendents of ibrahim (as) can lead the ummah? Thats not the stance of sunnis, i am afraid to inform you. if non descendents of ibrahim (as) can be khalif then it shows that noble birth can come from anywhere. no necessarily the descendents of prophet (saw).



"ahlul bay" people of the house, which household have you seen which doesn't include wives?

household includes wives and offspring and so on. verse 33:33 includes wives and the progeny of ali (ra).



she died of natural causes, after the death of her father (saw), please no conspiracy theories about how umar (ra) killed her baby or caused her death and so on. That would make ali (ra) seem very beghairat which I am sure he wasn't

Or it would make him seem very patient and forgiving. Many of the Sahabas family were like wise brutalized, mothers, fathers, sons and daughters, but they were told to forgive and have faith in Allah. So it is not that they are beghairat but that your sense of what is Islam is not the same as theirs.

Also, like I pointed to Abu Huraira, Umm Salma was present and she asked if she was from the ahlul bayt, but the holy prophet peace be upon him did not affirm it to her, so the wives are not included. The verse 33:33 has the word "yutahirakum", purify you. If you want to purify gold, you put it through heat, to clense it of the impurities. But we know that the Wives of the holy prophet did not go through any such purificatio, where as the ahlul bayt had gone through this. You are just not aware of this because another hadith confirms this from the mouth of the survivors of karbala, the true ahlul bayt. Then again it is also known the wives of the Holy Prophet peace be upon did trouble much their noble husband, so we can't say that they were "purified". Aisha radiallaha anha raised an army against Ali, so what does that have to say about her? She later expressed regret over her actions. So those who were made sinless had to go through sever hardship from the muslim community itself. Is it not true that Ali alihi salam was put under harship? What about Fadak? Wasn't the inheritence of Fatimatul Zahra left to her by her Father, the Holy prophet, peace be upon him? fadak produced the wealth necessary for waging the campaigns that lead to the later conquests. Are you going to deny all that as "conspiracy" theory too?


Anyway...you are saying that "khalifa" is a different concept that Nabiat. Fine. Then what about the Ayat in the Quran where Allah says to the Malaiyka "Ini Ja3lun fil Ardi khalifa"....what does that phrase? Surely, khalifa is a high position to be since man was created for this very purpose. If this was some cheap position compared to being a Rasul Or Nabi, then why would Allah say...this is what I am creating Man for. And then do you think that someone like Yazid or Muwaiyah deserves to be this Khalifa? Because any joe blow can represent Allah on earth? This is what you are saying?


As to why the prophets have been of the lineage of Ibrahim Alihi Salam, refer to the Holy Quran. Again, you underestimate the maqam, the position, of Ibrahim Alihi Salam to Allah, so you don't know. You " madhabi sunnies" make a mockery of Islam all together by saying "I don't know why allah did this"...when it is explained to you in the Quran. What is the point of the Quran if you can even discern this much from it?

Brother there is no point in debating about what shias believe. You should first concern your self with what sunnies believe. If you want I can produce enough evidence from "sunni" sources that affirm that khalifas, like prophets, should be of noble lineage. Go ask your local sheikh if you don't believe me.

Salam

[Gulbabo]

Salam.

I went to this shia 'nazer'... or i guess thats what they call. i forgot the exact name.. but it was in muharam. we have some afghan shia neighbors... so it was sweet of them to invite us... anways, so the at the end of the khatem they started reading some duas from a book, i remember some of the words... 'ama yujeebon mustara azadaha wayakhshifisoon"? and in that book they had curses written upon some people. now i am not really good at arabic but one line was something like this "wa la'natalAllah Omar ibne khattab"... iwas like :O... am i reading what i am reading?

then at the end of the dua... there was this lady imaam, who said 'salawat bar 4 yaar e mohammad (PBUH)... and they all said "allahumasali ala mohammad wa ala ali mohammad)...

i got very confused because one they were sending ALlah's lahnat on Hazrat Omar, then after they were sending salawat...

i didn't use to be believe in sunni shia difference, but after this incident i doubt the shias are aware of what is written in their religious books...

[Mujib]

Salam.

I went to this shia 'nazer'... or i guess thats what they call. i forgot the exact name.. but it was in muharam. we have some afghan shia neighbors... so it was sweet of them to invite us... anways, so the at the end of the khatem they started reading some duas from a book, i remember some of the words... 'ama yujeebon mustara azadaha wayakhshifisoon"? and in that book they had curses written upon some people. now i am not really good at arabic but one line was something like this "wa la'natalAllah Omar ibne khattab"... iwas like :O... am i reading what i am reading?

then at the end of the dua... there was this lady imaam, who said 'salawat bar 4 yaar e mohammad (PBUH)... and they all said "allahumasali ala mohammad wa ala ali mohammad)...

i got very confused because one they were sending ALlah's lahnat on Hazrat Omar, then after they were sending salawat...

i didn't use to be believe in sunni shia difference, but after this incident i doubt the shias are aware of what is written in their religious books...

That's unfortunate. You should stay away from their gatherings and avoid discussing these matters with them. Some people look for common Muslims to engage in these discussions. They are skilled at misinterpreting ayat and ahadith and misleading people with their words.

[شمله ور خراساني]

It seems Timbaktu and Alchemist have been influenced by Shi'ites.

[Alchemist]

1) people don't die of natural causes at the age of 18.

2) "kon fa yakon" applies to khalq, creation. if you follow your logic, then there is no need for hell or heaven.

3) Ahl al-Kisa - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Sunni View

Many Sunni scholars remark that the "purification verse" was revealed concerning five people: Muhammad, Ali, Fatimah, Hasan and Husayn.[9] Others maintain that the "purification verse" cannot refer to the inerrancy of the Imams because the context in which it occurs relates to the wives of Muhammad and necessitates that it, too, should refer to them, or that at the very least they cannot be excluded from the category it addresses. If it were to imply inerrancy, then the wives of Muhammad would also have to be inerrant, a belief that Sunni scholars do not hold. Shia scholars, however, do believe in the infallibility of Muhammad.
Nevertheless, according to the Sunni historian al-Tabari, the term ahl al-bayt refers to ‘Ali, Fatima, Hasan, and Husayn. In reference to verse 33:33, L. Veccia Vaglieri, in her Encyclopedia of Islam article entitled "Fatima", writes:
"[…] the preceding verses contain instructions to the wives of Muhammed, and there the verbs and pronouns are in the feminine plural; but in this verse, addressed to the People of the House, the pronouns are in the masculine plural. Thus, it has been said, it is no longer a question of Muhammed’s wives, or of them alone…. The expression Ahl al-bayt can only mean “Family of the Prophet”."




4)

Al-Hashr, 6 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


if you are not shia, you cannot accurately represent their views. Nor do you seem competent and knowledgeable on this issue. You called the daughter of the Holy Prophet ignorant, when in fact her position is clear before Allah. You twisted the meaning of "kon fa yakoon" and you misinterepreted the meaning of the word "khalifa" ..."test us through our khalifa?" ...really? you believe that? Please, talk to someone you trust regarding your din, don't just use your "intuition" here. If you don't trust me, or believe me, then at the very least, you should go ask an alim. Perhaps at the masjid where you pray. Ask them who can be a khalifa?

Why are they called "khalifa rashidoon"? The Abbasids over threw the Ummayads, so to give them selves legitimacythey called the first 4 khalifas rashidoon, meaning that the later three khalifas were not "Rashidoon" therefore they had to be taken out and replaced by them. It was done in retrospect. You are using this now in the same way. In fact there is a hadith in which the holy prophet peace be upon him as been quoted to say "there would be 30 years of khilafa, after which there will be kings" and so some sunni scholars include Hassan, the first born son of Ali alihi salam, as also a khlifa rashid.




Salam.

[Shamaar]

Ismaili Shias apparently believe that Imam Ali had 10 additional chapters (juz) of the Quran, which have only been passed down to the Imams of the Ismailis.

They really believe the Quran has 40 parts, not 30, and that their current Imam, the Aga Khan, has the last 10 parts in his possession.

[Alchemist]

ismailies are not shias

they have nothing in common with shias.

your average ismailie does not pray, fast or read the quran because they are exempt from anything that is wajib. they are not "religious" at all..they are a cult.

[Abu Hurayrah]

salam

you say you "believe" that the scholars have applied Taqiya, well thats your personal allegations which you can not back up with evidence. I am sure you know very well what islam says about people who assumes things about others. you know very well that only Allah (Swt) knows whats in the heart of people so they only way you can judge them is by what they say? do you agree or not?

Wa aleikom assalam warahmatullah

I provided a source where the taqqiyah is transparent. And these ''shuyukh'' clearly contradict themselves. I know that Allah knows that, but I also know that according the shia authentic narrations, the 12 imams of the shia know what is in the wombs of women and what is hidden, they also know the time if their death. So yes, I agree.

You have quoted from Al-kafi which i have said for a dozen time that it contains weak narrations which can't be used. If you use a hadith from al kafi then you would need to verify with a marja to check if the hadiths are sahih or not according to them. you can't just pick and choose from Al-Kafi, its not like sahih bukhari.

Al Kafi is one of their most authentic books around. The emergency mode of shi'as is to say, well it contains weak narrations. Since it is for the sake of our Imaan, let us look at the chains. If their hidden imam has praised it and said haadha kaafin li shi'attinaa, then you would expect some reliable source. The classic scholars approve of it and to be honest, the science of hadith is an unknown field in shia books, since anyone, even a donkey was able to narrate. I did not say this to ridicule anyone, as a matter of fact, a donkey did manage to be in the chain of narrators in one 'hadith'. Al Kafi and Sahih al Bukhari are indeed not to be compared at all.

you have quoted extensively from Tabarisi character. you seem to have one Tabrisi with the other. As i searched for this Tabrisi guy, i found out there were infact three Tabrisi, and the one you quoted from "Nuri al Tabrisi" is not a respected shia scholar, he just wrote a book where he collected sunni and shia ahadith about the incompleteness of the Quran. he was condemned by shia scholars and he is not a major scholar. just misguided individual who is not recongnized as a scholar. you can read this article for further clarification.

Tabarsi and incompleteness of Quran

You wrote


well these statements seem to contradict what you wrote

The teacher of Syed Murtadha Ilm-ul-Huda, and the great Shia Aalim, Sheikh Mufid (rah) says:

“There are no flaws of words, verses or Surahs in the present Quran.”
Tafseer A’la al-Rehman, page 17


Perhaps the Nawasib were seeking the opportunity to bark at the Shia, but after this statement from this authentic and great Shia Scholar, their mouths will be shut.

Sheikh al Mufid (rah) further says:

أن الذي بين الدفتين من القرآن جميعه كلام الله و تنزيله، و ليس فيه شيء من كلام البشر و هو جمهور المنزل

“Verily what is between the two covers of the Quran its whole content is Allah's words and revelation, there is nothing from the words of mankind in it and its entirety is the revelation of Allah”
1. Mirat ul-Uqool, Volume 1, page 171.
2. al-Mesael al-Surweya, by Sheikh al Mufid, page 78

It would be wise to quote it in FULL. This is the rest of this half quoting of yours.


All of what is between the two covers of the Quran is the Speech of Allah Ta’ala and His revelation; it does not contain any sayings of human beings, and it is most of what has been revealed, and the rest of what Allah Ta’ala has revealed as Quran is bestowed with (Al-Qaem) the Preserver of Shariah and Custodian of Rulings with none of it being omitted, even though the one who has compiled what is between the two covers as present today (Uthman) did not include this in the compilation due to reasons such as: his shortcomings in knowing some (of it), what he had doubts about, and some which he included and others he meant to exclude, while Amir al-Mu’mineen (Ali) compiled the revealed Quran from beginning to end, and collated it as it is supposed to be collated: so he put the Makki (verses) before Madani, and abrogated verses before those abrogating them, and put all of it as it is required to be put, and for this reason (Imam) Jafar ibn Muhammad as-Saddiq said: “By Allah if the Quran was read as it was revealed you would have found our names as those before us were named”…

Authentic Hadiths have passed from our Imams (A.S.) that they have ordered (us) to read what is between the two covers, and that we do not resort to any other, be it in addition or subtraction until the Qaem emerges and he would read to people the Quran as Allah Ta’ala revealed it and as collected by Amir al-Mu’mineen (Ali) and they forbade us from reading what is mentioned in Hadith of words that are in excess of what is established in the Mushaf because it did not come through Mutawatir (narrations), but through individual (narrations), and a person can commit mistakes in conveying it, and whenever a person reads what is contrary to what is in the two covers he will make himself prone to (the attacks) of those who differ with us (i.e. Sunnis), and to the mighty (Sunni rulers) and thus he would expose himself to perishing. Thus, they (A.S.) prevented us from reading the Quran contrary to what is mentioned between the two covers.

al-Mesael al-Surweya, by Sheikh al Mufid, page 78-79


The list of scholars that deny the completeness of our Qur'aan exists, and the worrying fact is that it is in their respected books and fataawa. If one said, there are no flaws, it does not mean, there are no deletions. Shaykh Mufid has claimed in Masaa'il as Sarawiyyah page 78-81 that there are missing verses.

It is a fraud and taqqiya, nothing more nothing less. Brother, please mind not to throw words like ''nawaasib'' etc, in this discussion, maybe you copied it somewhere, but I don't appreciate if one uses this word as an argument. And they are not even ashamed when they issue advise to use taqqiya. Shaykh Mufid's aqeedah was that the Qur'an is not complete and he had dalil from his shia sources as you can read in the full version of his quote on page 78-79

This is what sheikh Tabrisi says about the completeness of Quran


“Anything about the alleged additions made to the Quran are wrong and void anyway. With regards to the reduction from the Quran, some people from the Hashwia sect have narrated that changes and lapses have occurred in the Holy Quran, but we the Shia are opposed to this belief, that is we believe that no reduction has been made to the Holy Quran, ‘Ilm ul-Huda Syed Murtadha has said the same too, and this is a simple and clear statement, hopefully you people have come to know that the Shia belief is against any reduction or addition to the Holy Quran.”
1. Tafseer Majma’ ul-Bayan, page 5.
2. Tafseer al-Safi, page 13.

Then it should come as a surprise that in the reference you just quotes, tafsir al safi 10/33 it states that the real Qur'aan is with their Mehdi. The absurd fabrication can be red in tafsir al safi, when Umar (ra) asks Ali (ra), when will the real Qur'aan be revealed? He will say, when from my children, the Mahdi will rise, he will present that Qur'aan.

Tell me, if the majority of the Sahaba who wrote the present Qur'aan are murtaddeen according to them, what is their logic of adhering to a book, compiled by the ''enemies of ahl bayt'' ?

The belief of Shaykh Muhammad Baqar Majlisi (d. 1111 H)

“If someone advance his doubts over present Quran being the actual book of Allah (swt) when there exist many traditions according to which the Imams (as) recited verses of the Quran in a manner that are different from the existing Quran for example “Ye are the best of Imams, evolved for mankind” , “Thus We have appointed you a middle Imams” and “They ask you the windfalls” - reply of such notion will be the same as already cited i.e these traditions that are counted amongst the ‘Akhbar Ahad’ and when they are (measured) against Quran then their authenticity is unsure therefore we do not rely on such traditions and haven’t abandoned whatever is found in the present Quran because we have been ordered to act upon it …”
Bihar al Anwar, Volume 89 page 75

I can find thosands of these quotes for you to prove shia scholars don't believe in tahreef, These are the words from horses mouth and not some allegations by the fake scholar Nuri al Tabrisi.

I hope this is enough to convince you that shia scholars don't believe in tahreef and the ahadiths you have quoted have been taken out of context.

I am not convinced at all.

[Abu Hurayrah]

Alchemist, there is another narration which is narrated by ibn abi hatim where the prophet sallalahu aleyhi wasallam answers to Umm Salama (ra), ''you are already included''

We provided multiple Quranic aya's and proved that the wifes of the Anbiya are his Ahl Bayt. And yet, you hold on to a believe which teaches you to ascribe the sifaat of Allah to his creation. The concept of ''ma'sum'' is only applicable to Prophets while they spread the religion of Allah. And Allah is the most High and the most perfect.