Wrayun's problem with hadith and the marriage of Rasullah saww and Aiysha ra

[شمله ور خراساني]

Bismillah,

come on Wrayun.

Please tell us why you are a Hadith rejector and what is your problem with the marriage of the Prophet sal allahu alayhi wasalam and Aiysha radiallahu anha.

[Wrayun]

First, I'm not a hadith rejector, I'm just not a hadith worshiper. I think hadiths make good references, but what's in the hadiths should be open to scrutiny, and shouldn't be compulsory.

Second, I don't have a problem with the Prophet's marriage to Aisha ra. If it happened as it is recorded in the "authentic" Hadiths of Bukhari and Muslim, even though contradictory statements do exist that says otherwise, I believe it to be a special case of circumstances.

I don't believe that 6 years old, or 9 year olds, should be marrying 50 year olds. I also think that those who use the case of the Prophet to entertain their perverted fantasies, shouldn't be allowed to either. However, some people, like you, believe that rejecting hadiths, or practices in the hadith, are technical apostasies.

So I propose a question to you Sangar, will you allow your 6/9 year old to marry a 20/30/40/50 year old man? Remember, I am a Salafi, and I have the Sahi Hadith book with me. If you say anything to the contrary, you are rejecting the practice of the Prophet Mohammad, his Sunnat, his hadith.

So, would you?

[BarakzaiAbdali]

Bismillah,

come on Wrayun.

Please tell us why you are a Hadith rejector and what is your problem with the marriage of the Prophet sal allahu alayhi wasalam and Aiysha radiallahu anha.

I would caution labeling anyone because the umbrella should be wide. The law should stand as it is and be unaltered, but la illaha illalah wa muhammad durasoolullah binds us all together. I dont think he is rejecting hadith, but rather the abuse meted out by those that do not fully understand what is being implemented.

For example, whenever I take issue with the Saudi regime, I hear the refrain derived from sunnah that one ought not shake the throne when prayer is established. yet this is too simplistic in the face of the abuse by those tyrants.

Wrayuns point is that Quranic ayahs that are laws are mubeen (like a bill of rights amendment they speak with clarity and define the fine line). I do not at all wish to debase the Quran or hadith by making a human comparison... but he views the hadith as the equivalent of the writings of Jefferson or Washington in that they are powerful tools to give us an informed view of the constitution but they are no substitute for it. Just as when a question comes up, a lawyer appears to have to provide a precedent court case or an interpration by earlier established cases to support their decision, his view appears to be that just and informed Muslim jurists should have had to study the hadith literature with as much rigor and scrutiny as a lawyer from Harvard that has to study the Constitution, the works of the founding fathers, and multiple key court cases. His view appears to be that harnassing ayaahs or hadith to suit vein desires is contemptable.

[Wrayun]

Just to put things in perspective, here is a 6 year old:



Here is a 9 year old:



Here is a 30 year old male:



Here is a 50 year old male:




Now we can say that times were different back then, females matured faster, so did men. Yada, yada.


How about today?

[شمله ور خراساني]

First, I'm not a hadith rejector, I'm just not a hadith worshiper. I think hadiths make good references, but what's in the hadiths should be open to scrutiny, and shouldn't be compulsory.

Hadith is subject to scrutiny. Because it is not Qur'an. However, when enough evidence and reference in the authenticity of a hadith have been collected, it is impossible to reject it. It becomes mandatory upon us to accept it. This is the case with a hadith which is qualified as SAHIH.

Yet, even if a hadith is Sahih, it still has its on "sharh" or interpretation. And scholars like Imam an-Nawawi and Ibn Hajar al Asqalani have written the interpretation of various ahadith.

We are not allowed to use any hadith and apply it as we see fit. This is not how it works.

Unfortunately, many Muslims do misapply ahadith. They even do so with ayat of Qur'an.

That shouldn't be a reason for as to question Qur'an or hadith.

To give you an example. Osama bin Laden and his crew are of the opinion that killing random people of the disbelievers is permissible. They use a hadith as evidence for this. And they rely on a fatwa by Ibn Othaymeen rahmatullahi alayhi.

Ibn Othaymeen was just a scholar like any other scholar. So he can err. And the hadith Bin Laden uses, has its own sharh. And the sharh is recorded in Fath al Bari by Ibn Hajar.

So you can refute someone when he does this. But as you know, through-out the history various people have used religion for their own benefits and interests. This shouldn't mean that we should question religion.

It is people who we should criticize.

Second, I don't have a problem with the Prophet's marriage to Aisha ra. If it happened as it is recorded in the "authentic" Hadiths of Bukhari and Muslim, even though contradictory statements do exist that says otherwise, I believe it to be a special case of circumstances.

Maturity is of different kinds. There is biological maturity and there is psycho-social maturity. In certain communities and environments maturity can vary from the place and time we are finding ourselves.

This is why we should be very strict on application of ahadith. And we should approach proper scholars for fatwas.

Unfortunately decent scholars are a dying breed. People do not invest time and effort in proper Islamic scholarship.

I don't believe that 6 years old, or 9 year olds, should be marrying 50 year olds.

You don't believe so. BUt that does not mean that all 9 year olds around the world are like the 9 year olds you know.

If someone wants to marry a 9 year old in Europe or Afghanistan, this would obviously be a mistake. because women do not mature at that age in those communities.

However, the menstrual cycle of women and their psycho-social maturity in certain regions, especially in Sahara are quite similar to that of Hejaz 1400 years ago.

Therefore, it is quite possible to get married to a 9 year old there.

I also think that those who use the case of the Prophet to entertain their perverted fantasies, shouldn't be allowed to either.

You should focus on what I have said here above. Look at the environment and society and the biological development of people in such an environment.

However, some people, like you, believe that rejecting hadiths, or practices in the hadith, are technical apostasies.

Hadith rejection is apostasy. I can show you why it is so.

So I propose a question to you Sangar, will you allow your 6/9 year old to marry a 20/30/40/50 year old man?

If I would live in an environment where my daughter matures at early age and is psycho-socially developed to get married, I will allow her to marry. No problem.

Remember, I am a Salafi, and I have the Sahi Hadith book with me.

What are you trying to say?

If you say anything to the contrary, you are rejecting the practice of the Prophet Mohammad, his Sunnat, his hadith.

So, would you?

I hope I have answered you question.

[Wrayun]

Roshan Qasem, 11, will joing the household of Said Mohammed, 55; his first wife; their three sons; and their daughter, who is the same age as Roshan.



Ghulan Haider, 11, is to be married to Faiz Mohammed, 40. She had hoped to become a teacher but was forced to quit her classes when she became engaged.

[Wrayun]

I hope I have answered you question.

You are relying on too many presumptions, with little references to back up your claims. There are authentic hadiths that says Aisha ra had dolls, and played with dolls, and she took them with her when she got married. People, like authentic Salafi Muslims, who are gungho on Sunnah and might have a thing for 9 year olds, can use that and take your "pycho-maturity" argument apart. Another thing is how do you determine if a child is mature or not? Do we have any evidence that Aisha ra was mature? That is a assumption you make. We can argue that it was divine, it was a special case from historical and scriptural perspective. I know for a fact, that the Prophet marriage to Aisha was a special case of circumstance. I know that because I look at his other marriages, and wives. How old were they, and if they were of young ages.....She was his only virgin wife, and she was the only one in that age rank. So, Allhamdulillah, that is sufficient for me.


However, Hadith worshipers, Sunnah worshipers, people like you, this is a part of the Sunnah, the Prophet lead by example, and according to you his Sunnah is compulsory. How do you rectify this? This is where I, being a authentic Salafi, comes in.

I have the authentic Hadith book of Sahi Bukhari, that says that the Prophet married a 6 year old, and consummated his marriage with her when she was 9. I want to live by that example, I have the references, authentic Sahi references, to justify this. I also have other references to debunk your "pycho-maturity" argument, as Aisha RA played with her dolls, according to authentic Sahi Hadiths. So I come to ask the hand of your 9 year old. Will you, or will you not, Sangar saib, allow your 9 year old to marry a 30/50 year old? Will you reject this hadith, this practice, this part of the Sunnah, or will you now give me your excuses?

I'll make it sweet. Let's say she is very matured, heck she even has a job, she can operate an areoplane. Will you now, allow your 9 year old daughter or sister, to marry a 50 year old Haji Gul Wrayun?

[شمله ور خراساني]

You are relying on too many presumptions, with little references to back up your claims.

I have refered to Fath al Bari and Sharh of Sahih Muslim.

If you need to learn more, go and sign up in an Islamic course and learn.

There are authentic hadiths that says Aisha ra had dolls, and played with dolls, and she took them with her when she got married

So? There are mature women here in Europe who still have toys. Even men have toys.

Having toys doesn't mean someone is not mature.

People, like authentic Salafi Muslims, who are gungho on Sunnah and might have a thing for 9 year olds, can use that and take your "pycho-maturity" argument apart.

I think I belong to the most strict and most conservative branches of ahlul sunah. It doesn't get more stricter then me, trust me.

Another thing is how do you determine if a child is mature or not? Do we have any evidence that Aisha ra was mature? That is a assumption you make.

It is not an assumption. I have refered to Saharan communities which resemble the environment of Hejaz. There is no assumption here. You should do more research. There are different articles and researches in this field. I will try to post them when I have time.

We can argue that it was divine, it was a special case from historical and scriptural perspective.

I did not use that as an argument.

I know for a fact, that the Prophet marriage to Aisha was a special case of circumstance. I know that because I look at his other marriages, and wives.

That's true. But he also married a 60 year old woman. It is not acceptable today to marry such an old woman. Should we therefore abstain from marrying old women now?

How old were they, and if they were of young ages.....She was his only virgin wife, and she was the only one in that age rank. So, Allhamdulillah, that is sufficient for me.

You see, your problem is not the contradiction of ahadith, but your fears of bad image among the kuffar.

However, Hadith worshipers, Sunnah worshipers, people like you, this is a part of the Sunnah, the Prophet lead by example, and according to you his Sunnah is compulsory. How do you rectify this? This is where I, being a authentic Salafi, comes in.

Sahih Sunnah is Wahy. If you find that amusing, then it is your problem. You are ignorant of your religion.

I have the authentic Hadith book of Sahi Bukhari, that says that the Prophet married a 6 year old, and consummated his marriage with her when she was 9. I want to live by that example, I have the references, authentic Sahi references, to justify this. I also have other references to debunk your "pycho-maturity" argument, as Aisha RA played with her dolls, according to authentic Sahi Hadiths.

You are not debunking anything. You just built false arguments.

So I come to ask the hand of your 9 year old. Will you, or will you not, Sangar saib, allow your 9 year old to marry a 30/50 year old? Will you reject this hadith, this practice, this part of the Sunnah, or will you now give me your excuses?

Even if my daughter is 30, I would still never give her away to someone like you.

I'll make it sweet. Let's say she is very matured, heck she even has a job, she can operate an areoplane. Will you now, allow your 9 year old daughter or sister, to marry a 50 year old Haji Gul Wrayun?

I will allow my daughter to marry any decent muslim who knows his religion and is not infleunced by secularist propaganda.

[Wrayun]

^I knew it, a waste of thread and PF bandwidth. No need to carry out any further dialogue with a disingenuous & be-nanga person like you. You are hiding from an cyber arse mopping with those single liners. No merit or substance to your arguments.

[کیش]

Sangar

I think you are misunderstanding what Wrayun is saying. He is not a Hadith rejector, or an apostate. The Prophet marrying Aisha, was a special case. No where in any Hadith collection does it say to mimic that attribute. I suggest you purchase the Bukhari, and Muslim collection, and read it yourself, and not rely on "Scholars"

[شمله ور خراساني]

^I knew it, a waste of thread and PF bandwidth. No need to carry out any further dialogue with a disingenuous & be-nanga person like you. You are hiding from an cyber arse mopping with those single liners. No merit or substance to your arguments.

You see folks, this is what you get if you reason with secularists. When they fail to debate they use profanity.

[Wrayun]

You see folks, this is what you get if you reason with secularists. When they fail to debate they use profanity.

hahahahahaaha epic! just amazing.

Thank you for making me laugh this hard, akkhhhhiii.

[randolph85]

if u arent a salafi, ur a secularist according to this guy.

its a defense mechanism for this clown. its beyond his grasp of understanding that there are muslims who disagree with him.

i have no problem with the difference in age in the context of what things were like at the time. this was part of the culture of the time and is not something written in stone for future generations. many 9 yr olds are far more mature in places like afghanistan than 19 yr olds in america.

the situation in which the marriage occured and the parties involved are far more different than what we see today where these marriages are still commonplace. that said, there is something wrong about an elderly man marrying a small child just because he can as is the case in places like afg.

[شمله ور خراساني]

if u arent a salafi, ur a secularist according to this guy.

its a defense mechanism for this clown. its beyond his grasp of understanding that there are muslims who disagree with him.

i have no problem with the difference in age in the context of what things were like at the time. this was part of the culture of the time and is not something written in stone for future generations. many 9 yr olds are far more mature in places like afghanistan than 19 yr olds in america.

the situation in which the marriage occured and the parties involved are far more different than what we see today where these marriages are still commonplace. that said, there is something wrong about an elderly man marrying a small child just because he can as is the case in places like afg.

Rudolph, no. This is not my opinion. but when you lot argue with muslims relying on arguments proposed by secularists, you are basically taking a stance.

I don't care what your personal beliefs are. When you argue like a secularist you are a secularist.

[Wrayun]

if u arent a salafi, ur a secularist according to this guy.

its a defense mechanism for this clown. its beyond his grasp of understanding that there are muslims who disagree with him.

i have no problem with the difference in age in the context of what things were like at the time. this was part of the culture of the time and is not something written in stone for future generations. many 9 yr olds are far more mature in places like afghanistan than 19 yr olds in america.

the situation in which the marriage occured and the parties involved are far more different than what we see today where these marriages are still commonplace. that said, there is something wrong about an elderly man marrying a small child just because he can as is the case in places like afg.

This guy is an awesome example of stupidity, and irony. I don't mean to sound harsh, insulting, or demeaning. Though he has a history on this site. I just don't know how else to put it. I mean, people earn their respect, he does everything he can to loose his.

When you stress him on his points, he talks about how you can't just throw slogans, verdicts, fatwas here and there. Yet, he does that so often, it confuses me as to what this guy actually believes. It's ridiculous. What else would you call it?

He calls people kafir, secularists, sufi deviants, mushriks, apostates, so easily and in every other sentence he writes. Yet, when stressed on these subjects, he gives you this whole argument about you have to be careful on what you do, what you say, and how you apply certain things. Example, his initial posts in this very topic when it comes to hadiths. But he goes on to do exactly what I am stressing, the danger of gungho zealots, with pea brains, who declare everything and everyone HARAM, just because they disagree with them. Who mostly use their scholars, and their authentic man made references, perspectives and edicts as divine authority vs. what is in the Quran.

He is the problem with Islam today, and we are the reason why. We don't bring his type to question. Because ourselves don't know much about our religion, and these guys happen to be loud mouths. With all their noise, they keep the masses down. If only the masses will challenge their rigged and narrow perspectives.

Of course, questioning is haram, because that equates to rejection, which means apostasy. It's a monopoly. Wal Salafiya, Wal Wahabiya, Wal Arabiya, Wal Monopoliya!

They ruined traditional Islam. Is it any wonder why Muslims, living today, come to resent their own religion? Why wouldn't they, if questioning results in the attitude shown by this character. He being the custodian of AUTHENTIC ISLAM, the way of the SALAF and the SUNNAH of the PROPHET and his COMPANIONS.

Amazing.