Ozymandias vs Sangar

[شمله ور خراساني]

No scientific mirracle ever occured in the Qur'an. That is simply wrong to say so.

Qur'an is a book of guidance. Its interpretation is not subject to any late scientific discovery. Those Muslims who like to re-interpret qur'an in the light of recent scientific discoveries are fooling themselves.

Because scientific discoveries can be falsified. And many scientific "facts" have been falsified.

However, the Qur'an does contain many rational arguments to challenge disbelievers.

There is a very good lecture by Dr. Ali Al Tamimi on this subject. http://www.islaam.com/Lecture.aspx?id=67

[شمله ور خراساني]

What do you want to discuss with Ozymandias then.

I really want you to debate, you guys seem to be east and west. I want to see the truth.

I am not specialized in these matters. I am a specialist in politics.

If you want someone to counter people like ozzie, you need someone who is specialized in these matters.

[ozymandias]

Hey,

Just noticed this thread -- and I would have to say I would not be able to do this topic justice -- in fact, I am making a deliberate effort to avoid direct discussions of the Koran's contents.

Mainly because I am at a severe disadvantage in such a discussion. While I have made a deep study of the bible, and the various translations it has undergone, and have spent years learning nuances and the history of the languages it is written in, I have not spent much time with the Koran, and Arabic.

It would be difficult for me to do the conversation justice, as I would be forced to rely on English translations -- which I am lead to understand are not considered accurate, and I have not studied the language enough to discuss it on appropriate terms. Not only that but I have only read the Koran (in English) cover-to-cover once -- which is not enough to make me comfortable discussing the contents, as I do not feel I fully understand them yet. This means I would be forced to search the internet to research the topics at hand -- crippling my side of the discussion by forcing me to rely on dubious, and biased, interpretations.

That said, Sangar made the one claim I cannot refute: that the Koran is a book of guidance and not meant to be interpreted as a scientific catalog of proofs.

I can discuss the relative merits of the guidance it gives (in light of my prior admitted handicaps) and if it is good advice or not, but it is indeed a book of guidance.

As a final note -- please do not feel like you need to 'counter' me. I am not here to refute anyone's faith. I fully admit that I hope to make as many people question their faith that I can -- but the results of that questioning do not matter to me. I am equally happy if someone questions their faith and comes out stronger for the experience, as I am if they abandon their faith. The only faith I have a problem with is unexamined faith -- the result of irrational thoughts, and poor decision making skills.

The people I have the most respect for are those that know what they believe, why they believe it, and are able to discuss it on a rational level -- citing evidence and sources, and not just logical fallacies.

[شمله ور خراساني]

Hey,

Just noticed this thread -- and I would have to say I would not be able to do this topic justice -- in fact, I am making a deliberate effort to avoid direct discussions of the Koran's contents.

Mainly because I am at a severe disadvantage in such a discussion. While I have made a deep study of the bible, and the various translations it has undergone, and have spent years learning nuances and the history of the languages it is written in, I have not spent much time with the Koran, and Arabic.

It would be difficult for me to do the conversation justice, as I would be forced to rely on English translations -- which I am lead to understand are not considered accurate, and I have not studied the language enough to discuss it on appropriate terms. Not only that but I have only read the Koran (in English) cover-to-cover once -- which is not enough to make me comfortable discussing the contents, as I do not feel I fully understand them yet. This means I would be forced to search the internet to research the topics at hand -- crippling my side of the discussion by forcing me to rely on dubious, and biased, interpretations.

That said, Sangar made the one claim I cannot refute: that the Koran is a book of guidance and not meant to be interpreted as a scientific catalog of proofs.

I can discuss the relative merits of the guidance it gives (in light of my prior admitted handicaps) and if it is good advice or not, but it is indeed a book of guidance.

As a final note -- please do not feel like you need to 'counter' me. I am not here to refute anyone's faith. I fully admit that I hope to make as many people question their faith that I can -- but the results of that questioning do not matter to me. I am equally happy if someone questions their faith and comes out stronger for the experience, as I am if they abandon their faith. The only faith I have a problem with is unexamined faith -- the result of irrational thoughts, and poor decision making skills.

The people I have the most respect for are those that know what they believe, why they believe it, and are able to discuss it on a rational level -- citing evidence and sources, and not just logical fallacies.

Why do you think you are able to make people question their faith? From your behavior in the islamic reaction to extremists thread I have gathered that you are very agressive in your demand from Muslims to condemn threats against those who deliberately insult other peoples religion.

May I ask how many times have you gone out to protest the indiscriminate killings of Muslims by your government?

And please, don't compare Islam to Christianity. The prophet Isa peace be upon him had a clear message of monotheism. And The Greeks and Romans deviated his message adding their stoic and other philosophies making it in to the weird thing it is today.

Qur'an is not corrupted. It is the same thing for the past 1400 years.

[ozymandias]

Why do you think you are able to make people question their faith?

I mean this in the most broad sense of the word 'question' possible. I do not imply I can make them question why they are religious, but rather why they believe in something specific.

For example, I would not try to get a person to ask the question 'why am I Muslim?', but rather 'what evidence do I have that the Koran is unaltered by man?'. If you come back with 'I believe the Koran is unaltered by man because the Koran states it is true', you can use some studying and research. If, on the other hand, you are able to say 'I believe the Koran is true because I have looked into studies on the veracity and history of the Koran, and find the evidence compelling' you have a very good reason to believe what you do -- and at which point I would try to get you to question the studies and research -- both as an informative thing to me (both regarding what *you* believe, but *why* you believe that) and as informative to you.

The best conversations I have ever had led me to question something about myself or what I believed.

From your behavior in the islamic reaction to extremists thread I have gathered that you are very agressive in your demand from Muslims to condemn threats against those who deliberately insult other peoples religion.

This is unrelated, I think. I am very aggressive in that, for many reasons. A short list includes the fact that I would like to see any and all support (real or imaginary) for terrorists to erode and leave those evil men alone and without support -- regardless of what community they get support from.

I also hate to see an entire community of people lumped into the same group with terrorists -- and condemning them will prevent this.

Third, I am constantly hearing Muslims complaining that they are lumped with terrorists -- but see very little action done to prevent that. The reason Muslims are lumped together is that the anti-terrorists are not vocal, while the terrorists and supporters are vocal -- giving rise to the very 'demonization' many of you complain about.

May I ask how many times have you gone out to protest the indiscriminate killings of Muslims by your government?

Depends. I have been to several dozen anti-war rallies in the last few years, but not all of them were explicitly for the support of the Muslim people. Many were just anti-war, or 'no war for oil' or 'not in my name' campaigns, rather than 'don't kill Muslims'. I am against needless death of any human.

And please, don't compare Islam to Christianity. The prophet Isa peace be upon him had a clear message of monotheism. And The Greeks and Romans deviated his message adding their stoic and other philosophies making it in to the weird thing it is today.

I'm sorry -- what is it today? Anyone claiming that Christianity is anything but monotheistic does not truly understand the faith.

That said, I have not compared Islam and Christianity in this thread -- I compared my relative knowledge of the two religions. I have spent a large amount of time talking and studying with a large, and very diverse group of Christians. I have not had the privilege of doing the same with Islam -- yet.

Qur'an is not corrupted. It is the same thing for the past 1400 years.