The testominy right to women in Islam

[Toramana]

Why is that, the testimony of a woman is considered to be that of a half of a man although she has the full rational capacity to judge things ...Please, deliberate upon this...

[Baygham]

Why is that, the testimony of a woman is considered to be that of a half of a man although she has the full rationaly capacity to judge things ...Please, deliborate upon this...

R U saying that a musalmana is "half witted"

Better than a "full Imbecile" Talib.

The following title will make a good novel.

"The case of the Half Witted musalmana pushtana"

I would like to hear some of the rationalization from our sisters.

[Alchemist]

because women don't make good witnesses.

Its just not in the psychology of women to be good witnesses.

Rational explanation? How about a scientific study? How about searching for gender differences based on memory recall?

Men are better at visuospatial recall and women better at verbal recall but how good either be as witnesses? What if women get more traumatized or anxious , like children do when they witness a gruesome act? How about the fact that women enjoy horror movies more than men? I dunno ... differences do exist ...please deliberate further...

[*Mahzala*]

You're referring to the ayah in Surah Al Baqarah that goes as such: “…And get two witnesses out of your own men. And if there are not two men (available), then a man and two women, such as you agree for witnesses, so that if one of them (two women) errs, the other can remind her…” Mufasireen have come to the conclusion that this does not mean that women are less able, confused or that she doesn't understand. It, as Alchemist said, requires a rational explanation which can be further understood in books of research and science. It comes down to their physical makeup which is undoubtedly and indisputably different.

[Alchemist]

It is very sad and unfortunate that our women are forced to de-humanize themselves and lower themselves to a sub-human status at times to rationalize the 'crazyness' of their religion. Mufasireen did the same thing. They assume the Islam and Quran are totally correct and bend rational, evidence and logic to suit this and 'prove' the correctedness of the Quran. I am sure you will be ready to accept that you are a lesser human being and the 'wrong' kind of human being to rationalize the Quranic law.
Secondly, I have seen you stifle the freedom of speech in this forum by creating an aura of holiness around Islam. Each and every religious creed and religious personality should be open to criticism. If you love Islam and Islamic personalities more than your life, go ahead by all means, but do not force your love and devotion on me. Religion is nothing special or sacred. It should be criticised as readily and openly as a movie or a book or an item of clothing.

Why is it that man is assumed the complete human and woman is always compared to man to judge how human she is? So if there is anything different from a woman to a man, then the woman is "less-human". Women who don't do what men do and are not expected to do what men do are all of 'de-humanized'.
As a man I am flattered. But this isn't a question pertaining to religion per say, but it is a modern myth....deliberate

[Michin Khel]

I dont know about islam but my experience says that women lack intellectual depth. They are very good in memorizing things, toppers of my class are girls but they are weak clinically and practically to embarrasing extent.

[*Mahzala*]

It is very sad and unfortunate that our women are forced to de-humanize themselves and lower themselves to a sub-human status at times to rationalize the 'crazyness' of their religion. Mufasireen did the same thing. They assume the Islam and Quran are totally correct and bend rational, evidence and logic to suit this and 'prove' the correctedness of the Quran. I am sure you will be ready to accept that you are a lesser human being and the 'wrong' kind of human being to rationalize the Quranic law.

Rather, it is very unfortunate that you only see one alternative to my post. If women are inferior compared to men in a particular aspect, the other side of the coin will, yes, tell us that men are relatively better and vice versa. If a woman's strength lies in hearing, memorising, nurturing, compassion, child bearing, does that make you, as a man, less of a human? More than the Quran and Sunnah, science is proving a woman's incapability, and if, I, as a woman, am okay to hear that, why are you, a man, telling me, or rather should I say, imposing your ideals that this too is a product of my supposed crazy religion? In saying that, no, I am not a lesser human being than a man because my religion has honoured me in every way. Allah has given me pre-eminence and has favoured me over men in many aspects, so much so, that the Shariah gives me the upper hand and custody, as a (future) mother from which the future men, leaders of the world and scholars of the Ummah graduate. What virtue can be greater than this?

Secondly, I have seen you stifle the freedom of speech in this forum by creating an aura of holiness around Islam. Each and every religious creed and religious personality should be open to criticism. If you love Islam and Islamic personalities more than your life, go ahead by all means, but do not force your love and devotion on me. Religion is nothing special or sacred. It should be criticised as readily and openly as a movie or a book or an item of clothing.

You're quite right on that one, my love for my religion is quite deep, runs through my blood and always will, almost become the lens through which I see my world, whether it pleases anyone, matters very less to me. As for freedom of speech on these forums, you're free to question Islamic concepts, debate them in a manner not demeaning for the sake of knowledge. If your intention is to mock and ridicule the beliefs of the majority on this forum, yes, I will among the first to show you the door, and I say that with little hesitation. To those who follow it, to who we represent here, to whose lineage we are part of and what we stand for, religion is sacred, a part of our lives that everything else comes under.

[Wrayun]

^Mahzala

you go girl!

[Baygham]

You're referring to the ayah in Surah Al Baqarah that goes as such: “…And get two witnesses out of your own men. And if there are not two men (available), then a man and two women, such as you agree for witnesses, so that if one of them (two women) errs, the other can remind her…” Mufasireen have come to the conclusion that this does not mean that women are less able, confused or that she doesn't understand. It, as Alchemist said, requires a rational explanation which can be further understood in books of research and science. It comes down to their physical makeup which is undoubtedly and indisputably different.

I even noticed a thanks from another female member.

Well if you are happy to be labeled as 'half witted' what can any one else say. It is utterly amazing, I like to hear from other members, gulalai, roshana etc. Give us your two cents.

Science does not say that the memory of women is half that of a man that she needs collaboration of a second female to make up for one man. That is utter rubbish. A woman's recollection is just as prone to err as is a man's, no 50+50=100. That primitive, male chauvinistic Bedouin equation does not hold in today's world.

[tor_khan]

I even noticed a thanks from another female member.

Well if you are happy to be labeled as 'half witted' what can any one else say. It is utterly amazing, I like to hear from other members, gulalai, roshana etc. Give us your two cents.

Science does not say that the memory of women is half that of a man that she needs collaboration of a second female to make up for one man. That is utter rubbish. A woman's recollection is just as prone to err as is a man's, no 50+50=100. That primitive, male chauvinistic Bedouin equation does not hold in today's world.

You resort to a primal form of racial insult to make your pledge for women's equality.

Note the irony,and not the first time I might add.

"All animals are equal but some animals are more equal than others."
Chapter 10 George Orwell's Animal Farm.

[Toramana]

I even noticed a thanks from another female member.

Well if you are happy to be labeled as 'half witted' what can any one else say. It is utterly amazing, I like to hear from other members, gulalai, roshana etc. Give us your two cents.

Science does not say that the memory of women is half that of a man that she needs collaboration of a second female to make up for one man. That is utter rubbish. A woman's recollection is just as prone to err as is a man's, no 50+50=100. That primitive, male chauvinistic Bedouin equation does not hold in today's world.

I was about to say the same thing---the way she is trying to ascribe things to Science it never claimed...i.e., a woman's abilities are half of those of a man ...

So far, we cannot find any scientific study that says a man's visual or cognitive/rational ability, or memory capacity is twice the strength of a women's...That is how Muslims try to find reasons no matter how irrational and untrue to justify their attachment to religion...

[Wrayun]

Baygham, Toramana,

Initially I wanted to reply to this thread, but then I realized that what's the point. You two have dished out the same questions, same queries, over and over again, not just on this platform but many others. No matter what answer is given to you, you won't accept it. So why bother?

Anyways, if you like, please quote Islamic scripture and sources that says two women testimony is as good as one man. We'll move on from there.

[Wrayun]

By the way, just in case, if you really are interested in scientific differences between the sexes:

Sex differences in humans - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Sex and intelligence - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Looks like not only Islam, but even "evolution" is discriminatory against the female gender. But then again, men evolved differently, stronger, faster, because of their evolution. 20% more brain mass then females. Better long term memory vs. female short term capacity.

[Alchemist]

People who believe that the psychology of males and females are the same apparently live in caves and never interact with the opposite sex. Good for you.

Again the assumption that women are half wits because two of them are required for one testimony is your own assumption. From a legal stand point there are other social consideration such as repercussions for testimony. In an Islamic society women are kept in harems and do not interact with non-mahrams and therefore there is a lesser chance of civil disputes that would bring out a situation where it is the word of one woman against one man. Since the penalties in Islam are harsher the dilberation requires to be more stringent. In wester society if a man rapes he might get a few years in jail with good behaviour in an islamic society he would be put to the sword.

depth of comprehension.

[Alchemist]

4:34 "Men are in charge of women, because Allah hath made the one of them to excel the other, and because they spend of their property (for the support of women). So good women are the obedient, guarding in secret that which Allah hath guarded. As for those from whom ye fear rebellion, admonish them and banish them to beds apart, and scourge them."

Women have no rights in Islam, most Muslims in the west get confused, but in reality they are only following a Secularised Islam. If one looks back in Muslim History, there you will see there is no such thing as rights for women.

You are as ignorant as you are brash.

Even if you study women's right on wiki you'll see that it all began in the Islamic world.

Up until a hundred years ago women in england couldn't vote because they had no right to properties. Women were given their own share of inheritance and property before even western women knew what it meant to have a right. Go take some history classes and educate your self. You post something like 100 posts a day and all your information is based on cliches and stereotypes portrayed on black and white tv shows. pathetic...