Debate: Does God Exist? Hamza Tzortzis vs. Humanist

[Manzareh]

Thats what faith is, you dont need evidence for faith.

[Manzareh]

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[MeemWawMeemNoon]

I wasn't rebutting. I was discussing. Reread my post if you read it as a rebuttal.

Think of the One Who revealed the Quran. The think you are thinking about is by definition an idea, since you are thinking about.

He said "I love the idea that God exists". "That God exists". Think about that. Yep, it is an idea, and it makes you feel a certain way. He likes that feeling and wants to share.

I think that has nothing to do with God .

I did realize you wanted to discuss, I guess I used rebut instead of debate, since in a discussion there is also constant rebutting. Nonetheless.

To the discussion.

Then by definition of what you have presented then everything in life we do is an idea, correct?

[3.14159265...]

Everything we think of is an idea.

For example, when I am hungry, and I feel that hunger. That is not an idea.

Now, think about feeling hungry. That is an idea.

[MeemWawMeemNoon]

Everything we think of is an idea.

For example, when I am hungry, and I feel that hunger. That is not an idea.

Now, think about feeling hungry. That is an idea.

Let me clarify this for the purpose of our discussion: can an idea be a fact?

[MeemWawMeemNoon]

MI6 Jaana, I am not ignoring your posts. If you bear with me I will try to also address them.

[3.14159265...]

I am confused as to your definition of a fact. I will assume:

Definition: A fact is that which is.

An idea exists, hence it is a fact.

An idea is a fact in as much as that it exists, but it is not that which it represents.

Let me clarify. Suppose there is a city, and suppose I make a map of the city.

The map is an idea, the city is a fact. The map is a fact too, but the map isn't the city.

If you would like a different definition of fact, I can clarify in that sense.

[MeemWawMeemNoon]

Allah exists. Call it an idea or a fact or what you wish, as long as they all come back to the notion that He exists.

You are stressing to much on semantics.

[kakargirl]

One person to you means a Majority?
im not talking about one person here im talking about some amount of learned people who are reverting to islam
Why dont you show us the number of people leaving Islam. There are 1000's of them in the West. Islam will not Prevail, as Islam is very much divided. Islam is very much split into many paths.
the ones that leave islam are ones you get every where the wannabes who think if they leave this religion they will fit in some where else better its there own inferiority complex.
What is a Czech Scientist? Is he supposedly Conversion some kind of huge Acheivement for the Muslims Worldwide?
scientist are very smart people smarter than you will ever be ,and dont judge people the reverts make much better muslims they are humble they devoted to deen iv seen whole families in leeds makes me ashamed of some of the born muslims including my self
What if this Scientist one day decides he misses his pork sandwiches and wants to return to his past habits? What is Islams ruling on this? Is it not treason to leave Islam and be killed?
thats their choice i cant say nothing to that because born muslims arent that great they always want to fit in western society.
Is it not a death penalty for a Non Muslim to speak about the Prophet such as Asia of Pakistan, Sufis, Shias, Wahabis are right now protesting on the streets of Lahore for a Christian Minority to be hanged publically?
pakistan is nothing to do with me .
You think the educated ones will follow this?

Kakargirl, You live in the west for a very good reason, its because the West is way way way ahead of the Muslim world, Due to the free Secular Laws of the West you are free to preach your Islamic Acheivements which in my view holds absolutely Zero ground when it comes to power or in any way prevailing.
you dont know nothing about my family or my self or why we live here i dont go out preaching i will answer if someone asked me a question
I would love to show this Czech Scientist the Muslim world of the Past, the World which is not painted so beautifully as some Imgine, the world of forced conversions, killings and not to forget, the world of people such as Abdullah Azzam, there are countless hadiths that are more violent than the third reich Nazi youth textbook
You think a Person with a PHD would want to join such a Society
I suggest you watch Religidiculous(Sorry about Spelling)
i dont need to watch anything you suggest to me im not blind or deaf or dumb i know exactly whats going
Majority of Scientists in America do not beleive in God, there is only probably one Person who does, and hes a Evangalical Christian, I forgot his name, he was once a Ashtist too and he converted to Christianity, WOW does this mean Evanglicals are truthful and there is a god?
we are discussing islam here not chrianity
Of course not! If Muslims are leaving Islam, then what does this tell you?
well if they leave islam that is there choice they were given a chance from day one if they choose to throw it away that is their choice good luck to them i think at the end what will happen the ones that were born non mulims will revert to islam and the ones that were born muslims will turn to what ever just like they follow the west now its a humans choice youve been given a brain to think do what you please
Atleast in the West, you get to choose your spiritual route in Life, go to any Muslim country and pronounce your new Faith, You would be Lynched and slaughtered by the same person who will do three takbeers when you read your Sahada.

As I have said Before, Religionous Laws and Clergymen are not a good option for a country to be progressive etc.

Religion is competition, Christianity and Islam only think about Numbers and want to dominate eachother by many means.

Religion contributes Segragation instead of progression. Religion which Kakargirl and co follows is what you call A Secularised Islam, go to a Strict Islamic country whereby Shariat is followed and you would not be able to be speaking on the Internet with boys let alone listening to Music which is Haraam.
oh to your last question i know music is haram i know i shouldnt be on here my 1st forum iv ever been on you dont need to tell me that does my family know im here no they dont would they happy no they wont so i know all this you need to keep tellng me i each sentence you write
Most of us here, are only closet Muslims, we do exactly the opposite of what Islam teaches us to do. I bet you guys do not even wear a Burga, Read Quran Daily, Attack atleast one non muslim nation(abdullah Azzam) a year, make non muslims pay jizya, attack jews until day of judgement comes, tell the non muslims that Jews are born monkeys and pigs etc.
yes i do read the quran every day and i wear the burqa other part i wont even answer as i go to a uni full of catholic girl not even once have i ever attacked any of them there are jewish girls there too, but do i need to be a better muslim yes i do do i see my faults one should perfect them selfs before they preach so im not in a position to preach
You guys hate to admitt it, but in my view you are all Secularists.

m16 all you ever do is bring up other members

[3.14159265...]

Nice post Roshina.

A little correction: Hindus do not believe in multiple Gods.

[MeemWawMeemNoon]

There is only one concept of the true God.

Overtime, different people, to whom a prophet was sent, tainted the original concept, and extrapolated and interpolated it with philosophy and politics. Today, the true and original concept of God has been re-revealed to Muhammad (saw) and will forever be preserved in the Quran.

If we were to accept that ALL the concepts of God are valid then that raises the question: How many gods are there? How should human beings adjust themselves psychologically and theologically?

To concede that there are different opinions of God is one thing, but to accept that they are ALL true is something totally different. That said, if someone was to accept that ALL concepts of God are valid, then are they really accepting that God really does exist, or is it that they are simply being politically correct. Moreover, the next question that rises from this fallacy is then why was Muhammad (saw) given a message different than the concepts of God that already existed in the world? Why is it that Quran is the only scripture in which God categorically claims to be the author of?

All in all, today we can't say that every religion is correct, in terms of their concept of God, because then it defeats the whole purpose of the Quran's categorical injunction to invite people towards Islam. Because Islam is a universal teaching, therefore it is the only religion which God has allowed to invite people from every race, sex, walk of life, in other words, everyone. No other religion has been given this universality of invitation and propagation.

Leave religion and morality aside, for even an Atheist can live a moral life.

[3.14159265...]

Roshina,

MeemWawMeemNoon, why is the concept of God important?

Suppose your recite these verses every night:

"Allah - there is no deity except Him, the Ever-Living, the Sustainer of [all] existence. Neither drowsiness overtakes Him nor sleep. To Him belongs whatever is in the heavens and whatever is on the earth. Who is it that can intercede with Him except by His permission? He knows what is [presently] before them and what will be after them, and they encompass not a thing of His knowledge except for what He wills. His Kursi extends over the heavens and the earth, and their preservation tires Him not. And He is the Most High, the Most Great.

There shall be no compulsion in [acceptance of] the religion. The right course has become clear from the wrong. So whoever disbelieves in Taghut and believes in Allah has grasped the most trustworthy handhold with no break in it. And Allah is Hearing and Knowing."

Then, you decide it would be a good idea to print them in Gold and hang them on your wall and recite them every night. You teach it to your kids, and whenever you feel any need you recite them.

Is there something funny going on? I think so. I think once you concentrate too much on anything, even verses that are this great, you are making a golden calf.

Leave ideas behind. This isn't about you think about, it is about what you are.

[MeemWawMeemNoon]

Pi Jaana, you have basically insulted the fact that Muslims pray 5 times a day. No offense taken, because I know you are an Atheist.

I can answer, however, I will allow Roshina to answer to you.

Roshina, please answer Pi on why the concept of God is important and why we recite the Quran day-in and day-out.

ps
I know as an Atheist you will naturally answer as such, I am not offended. However, I would like for Roshina to defend these Quranic verse being mocked by you.