Pashtunistan: Response to Levanaye and Admin Khan

[Khidr]

I knew before joining here, as a non-Pashtun I would probably have an 'expiry date' on this board. Now with the end of my exam and summer approaching, it's probably a good time to end my brief but enjoyable stay here.

Before I go, I just want to thoroughly addresss and respond to Levanaye Zalmaye and Admin Khan, as well as to Gulalai and Mayana who I noticed liked the response of Levanye and Admin Khan to me. In fact this is my response to any Pashtun who fantazises about a Pashtunistan with the non-pashtun areas of Afghanistan included within it.

Let me say from the outset and with all due respect to Admin Khan in particular, that I find your (and Levanye's) claims of ‘superiotity complex,’ ‘hatred’ and essentially racism against me full of great irony and frankly dubious.

There is no hatred in me for any race. I don’t wish to ‘fight’ Pashtuns or anyone for that matter. I’m not against Pashtun Unity (that is If ‘Pashtun Unity’ means merging of Pashtun areas of Pakistan and Afghanistan and creating Pashtunistan) and I don’t suffer from ‘superiority complex.

However....

I do love my people, culture, land, language and history just as much as any of you love yours! This means I will defend and thus “fight” in anyway possible, anyone who ever seeks to imprison or “incorporate” my land/people into a Pashtunistan/Loy-Afghanistan. This would make me no more or less than those of you against Punjabi-Pakistani occupation of Pashtun areas of Pakistan.

If not wanting to be a part of a Pashtunistan makes me a chauvinist then I’m as much of a chauvanist as those of you Pashtuns who don’t want to live in a Pakistan dominated by Punjabis. Just like a Punjabi dominated state is in no way representative of the history, culture of Pashtuns. A Pashtunsitan is in no way representative of the history or culture of my people.

Levanye you said:
Secondly, no one wants to lose the north and the west. The territorial integrity of Afghanistan is a personal matter to all Pashtuns. And that is also party what the Durrand Line issue is all about.

Levanaye, LOL you cannot on the one hand seek to uphold “Afghanistan’s territorial” integrity but on the other seek to dismantle Pakistan territorial integrity! You can’t see the irony?

This hypocritical stance of yours is just not just amusing but it only breaks the moral of your argument of partition of Pakistan and creation of Pashtunistan. It only weakens your own argument for Pashtunistan!

The territorial integrity of “Afghanistan” may be a "personal matter for all Pashtuns," but the territorial identity of my land Khurasan or whatever you wish to call it, is more than a “personal matter” for Tajiks.

[Khidr]

Your Pashtunistan cause is a 21st century cause, where the desires of a specific group of people wanting to live with their own kind resonates with people.

Your Loy-Afghanistan/Pashtunistan cause is a 17th century ideal for an empire that fascists amongst you are trying to masquerade in the 21st century under the principle of a modern state. It ain’t gonna see the light of day and be taken seriously!

History didn't begin and/or end with the Abdali Empire. As sweet and nostalgic it would offcourse be for you guys, you must realize that it came at a time when the empires of the east were on the decline and just about everyone in the region at some stage or another had achieved their empire with the exception of you guys. 800 years before you Tajiks with the Samanids had theirs for 100 plus years...Mongols had theirs, Uzbeks had theirs...for centuries. All of these empires were much more 'eventful' and culturally celebrated than the 20 year old Abdali empire.


In summary, I think on this particular topic, I speak for just about all Tajiks, Hazaras, Uzbekis and any other ethnic group who calls my diverse Khurasan home...that If you want your Pashtunistan, have it...do whatever you want with it...call it whatever you want...but if you want to include my land...the north and western “Afghanistan” and my people...into your Pashtunistan...then as I said to “Azmal” it would probably be easier for you guys to kill every one of us than it would be to steal/incorporate my Khorasan into your Pashtunistan.

If this makes me a chauvinist so be it..or if it this makes me a “mongoloid-refugee-tajik” LOLL then so be it. Mongol and refugee I shall proudly proclaim myself! lol

Wasalaam!

[Baygham]

the common religion of islam in history has never provided any unity. It is another method of imposition of the hegemony of one and only one group over the others. Look at history, name one muslim country, empire or group that has included a diverse population and allowed the expression of equal oppurtunity to all its members.
Mohammad banned the pagans (for centuries the inhabitants of arabia)
even the much hyped rule in spain is a fantacy, only the ruling class allowed those aligned to their designs.
To dream of a multi ethnic state in Islam is a fantasy, and thus I understand the dilemma faced by our tajik brother here. I would myself be very wary as a tajik of pashtoon hegemony under islam as it will result in the second hand status for the tajik, no matter what everyone else says.
however to protect the minority we have to device a system that allows their protection. Something we are willing to accept as a minority ourself say in present day pakistan or for that matter in the west or in any other country or place on earth. Such a system is not on the table at the moment or even on the horizon.
seperation is also not totally possible as who will get border areas like kabul, why should the tajiks leave their homeland there, why should the minority pashtoons leave the north and west. That kind of migration (as done in the subcontinent) is not practical and will lead to blood shed.
A more practical system will be of regional autonomy and secular democracy. Where unity is cherished and rewarded not affiliation with outside conspiritors for the sake of pushing individual agendas.

[Baygham]

Wait, the foreigners are bombing Kandahar, not Panjshir!!! Panjshir seems to doing quite well, actually.

Where is this misplaced thought? If anything, people should be voicing concern for fellow Afghans in Kandahar at this time, and not other matters which can be dealt with later!!!!!

will you be happy if they bombed panjshir, I wont be, there are humans there too. I can only sympathize with the dilemma of the kandaharis.
Taliban, golden age of islam or kafir collaboration, death here or in afterlife, lose lose situation. For their own sake I hope they see another way soon.

[Catya Sher]

Well I for one will stake out that most unpopular stance of saying that Khidr should have made a few inroads on the carved-in-granite mentalities.

He seems the most articulate so far of those presenting the Tajik point of view.

It seems to be like a message from beyond that the dreamed-of incorporation of the nationalities of the Afghan North is simply NOT EVER going to work.

So Pashtun nationalists MUST revise their plans to be fair to the many ethnic groups sprinkled all over. Not just fair in word but in a workable way. Other a terrible fraticidal war will be sparked.

Why not think of this warning as a way to figure out a better solution to AVERT that catastrophe well in advance ?

I agree with Unknown, that the best and ONLY unifying factor is Islam. All the ethnic groups love their religion, so this is the way.

I liked Khidr's rebuttal to LZ:
"Levanaye, you cannot on the one hand seek to uphold “Afghanistan’s territorial” integrity but on the other seek to dismantle Pakistan territorial integrity! You can’t see the irony? This hypocritical stance etc etc"

Khidr has articulated this contradiction well.

I say it's back to the drawing board for Pashtun nationalists to work on a new, FAIR plan...

Thank you for your contribution, Khidr. I hope that people listen to the ESSENCE of your message and act on it to fashion the best future for Afghanistan and its mosaic of peoples.

[Toramana]

Well I for one will stake out that most unpopular stance of saying that Khidr should have made a few inroads on the carved-in-granite mentalities.

He seems the most articulate so far of those presenting the Tajik point of view.

It seems to be like a message from beyond that the dreamed-of incorporation of the nationalities of the Afghan North is simply NOT EVER going to work.

So Pashtun nationalists MUST revise their plans to be fair to the many ethnic groups sprinkled all over. Not just fair in word but in a workable way. Other a terrible fraticidal war will be sparked.

Why not think of this warning as a way to figure out a better solution to AVERT that catastrophe well in advance ?

I agree with Unknown, that the best and ONLY unifying factor is Islam. All the ethnic groups love their religion, so this is the way.

I liked Khidr's rebuttal to LZ:
"Levanaye, you cannot on the one hand seek to uphold “Afghanistan’s territorial” integrity but on the other seek to dismantle Pakistan territorial integrity! You can’t see the irony? This hypocritical stance etc etc"

Khidr has articulated this contradiction well.

I say it's back to the drawing board for Pashtun nationalists to work on a new, FAIR plan...

Thank you for your contribution, Khidr. I hope that people listen to the ESSENCE of your message and act on it to fashion the best future for Afghanistan and its mosaic of peoples.

Here you have said something sensible alas have again mingled it with things (Islam as a binding force) not sounding sensible. The Islamic fraternity during the Ottamans was more due to the arm of the Turkish soldier than any genuine desire in the "subjects" for Islamic unity. By the way, is their any Turkish workable model chalked out to accommodate genuine Kurdish concerns/aspirations? We Pashtun nationalists would like to benefit from such a model.

Moreover, which model would better secure the interests of the Uzbak warlord, Rashid Dostum, one brother in Pan-Turkish fraternity?

[Toramana]

Khadir, I will respond to your posts later.

[Amir al Ghaznavi]

i think Khidr has articulated a very sensible opinion

[Catya Sher]

^
Glad you have expressed agreement here. It's hard for those who try to maintain objectivity to dismiss his useful observations.

I don't think he should leave the site because some, if not most, viewers - and there are over a thousand here often now - can learn something of value to incorporate into their ideas.
I find him to be well-informed, and much prefer reading his thought-provoking posts than - no offense to the Hindus - most of those, which are largely irrelevant to Afghanistan's future, let us remember. They are disproportionately represented here: few Tajiks have felt comfortable apparently to venture their ideas here.
At least, in a reasonable tone of voice.

Toramana,
I never got a chance to reply about Dostum. THAT GUY HAS GOT TO GO !
I shudder at the mention of his name.

I am speaking about all those who have CONSTRUCTIVE interests for the future of this part of Central Asia.
His record reveals DESTRUCTIVE activities rooted in little but SELF-INTEREST.

I wish such unethical leaders would be escorted under guard to Kamchatka.
ASAP.

After all he was originally with the Communists, so it should be appropriate place of exile.
He could probably find some pals with whom to swap tales of the Soviet era around a samovar of that smoky Russian Caravan tea...

[Toramana]

Khadir, you have made your stance clear. This may also be the dominent view in the ethnic group if not the other minorities that you, probably, are trying to speak for. Nevertheless, I will say one thing i.e., as an option or slogan aside, there has not been much practical (or even conceptual) work or agitation done for the unification of Pashtuns under a Loy Afghanistan.

So the issue isn't whether there should be a Loy Afghanistan or not. Loy Afghanistan is not even a remote possibility.

The important question is, what should be a power-sharing formula acceptable to all groups in an Afghanistan with its present borders. As an outsider, as I see it, a lot has changed in Afghanistan as for as the balance of power between different groups is concerned. Pashtuns think and impartial observers have the opinion that the present distribution of power within Afghanistan doesn't reflect demographic realities. Pashtuns have genuine greviences and feel that almost all, including the West-US, involved in the Afghan coflict ever since have made some gains except Pashtuns, on both sides of the border, who have paid the highest price for all the benefits that have accrued to others.

So the point isn't whether there should be a Loy Afghanistan or not. It is, whether a federal democratic Afghanistan with its present territorial limits intact and important powers vested in the central govt while genuine representation given to regional/ethnic groups based on share in population as established by a neutral entity like UNO acceptable to minorities?

As I could sense from your posts in which you have talked of equality amongst ethnic groups, minorities, foremost its Tajak component, want substantial power vis-a-vis Pashtuns through an arrangment based on the concept of weak central government and strong regional units.

For Pashtuns, other concerns are the Durand Line, a divisive line that has affected Pashtuns a lot and scope/space for cultural advancement vis-a-vis the rising influence/pressure(coupled with expanding political power) of the neighbouring cultures/communities.

Right now, due to the division of Pashtun Land, Pashtuns don't have a strong center for cultural expression/promotion. You have Tajakistan and Iran working for your culture. Furthermore, your language also has a dominent position in Afghanistan. Pashtuns to both sides of the Durand Line want to maintain a kind of cultural contact with each other. It is another point how would the non-Pashtuns view it (i.e., why I say unification in a Pashtun state is the only viable option for Pashtuns).

Anyhow, we are looking forward to having more discussions with you and other Tajaks on such issues.

[Toramana]

I have another question; what is the idea of this Khurassan? As I have guessed it from your post above, it is a kind of de-ethnicized territorial concept, mainly Tajak-centered, aimed at making the idea of a united Northern Afghanistan acceptable to other groups e.g., Uzbaks, Hazaras, etc.

Are the other groups feeling convenient about it and how can they reconcile with Tajak prominence in it?

[Toramana]

^
Glad you have expressed agreement here. It's hard for those who try to maintain objectivity to dismiss his useful observations.

I don't think he should leave the site because some, if not most, viewers - and there are over a thousand here often now - can learn something of value to incorporate into their ideas.
I find him to be well-informed, and much prefer reading his thought-provoking posts than - no offense to the Hindus - most of those, which are largely irrelevant to Afghanistan's future, let us remember. They are disproportionately represented here: few Tajiks have felt comfortable apparently to venture their ideas here.
At least, in a reasonable tone of voice.

Toramana,
I never got a chance to reply about Dostum. THAT GUY HAS GOT TO GO !
I shudder at the mention of his name.

I am speaking about all those who have CONSTRUCTIVE interests for the future of this part of Central Asia.
His record reveals DESTRUCTIVE activities rooted in little but SELF-INTEREST.

I wish such unethical leaders would be escorted under guard to Kamchatka.
ASAP.

After all he was originally with the Communists, so it should be appropriate place of exile.
He could probably find some pals with whom to swap tales of the Soviet era around a samovar of that smoky Russian Caravan tea...

Cateya, I could not understand one thing. As for as, defending Afghanistan against the invaders (as you call it) is concerned, you spare no occassion to emphasize the central role of Pashtuns in that gigantic task. But if Tajaks and others, whose rights, here you have spoken for with remarkable agility and force, are the equal citizens of Afghanistan, have you ever endeavoured to remind them of their responsibility in this regard(to stand with Pashtuns) with as much zeal as you are doing it in the case of Pashtuns?

Moreover, if I am not stretching my imagination too far, there isn't some kind of Central Asian nostalgia (Turk roots)/sentiment, at work in your response to Khadir in this thread?

I have noticed a lot of people (esp Muslims) like (and glorify) Pashtuns very much especially when they fight for the supremacy of Islam but hate their culture.

And I mentioned Dostum to kind of symbolise the Uzbak-Turkman minority in the north whose rights have you promptly defended though with prudence to camouflodge it with a speak-for-all (minorities) tactic.

[parsiwaan]

I knew before joining here, as a non-Pashtun I would probably have an 'expiry date' on this board. Now with the end of my exam and summer approaching, it's probably a good time to end my brief but enjoyable stay here.

Before I go, I just want to thoroughly addresss and respond to Levanaye Zalmaye and Admin Khan, as well as to Gulalai and Mayana who I noticed liked the response of Levanye and Admin Khan to me. In fact this is my response to any Pashtun who fantazises about a Pashtunistan with the non-pashtun areas of Afghanistan included within it.

Let me say from the outset and with all due respect to Admin Khan in particular, that I find your (and Levanye's) claims of ‘superiotity complex,’ ‘hatred’ and essentially racism against me full of great irony and frankly dubious.

There is no hatred in me for any race. I don’t wish to ‘fight’ Pashtuns or anyone for that matter. I’m not against Pashtun Unity (that is If ‘Pashtun Unity’ means merging of Pashtun areas of Pakistan and Afghanistan and creating Pashtunistan) and I don’t suffer from ‘superiority complex.

However....

I do love my people, culture, land, language and history just as much as any of you love yours! This means I will defend and thus “fight” in anyway possible, anyone who ever seeks to imprison or “incorporate” my land/people into a Pashtunistan/Loy-Afghanistan. This would make me no more or less than those of you against Punjabi-Pakistani occupation of Pashtun areas of Pakistan.

If not wanting to be a part of a Pashtunistan makes me a chauvinist then I’m as much of a chauvanist as those of you Pashtuns who don’t want to live in a Pakistan dominated by Punjabis. Just like a Punjabi dominated state is in no way representative of the history, culture of Pashtuns. A Pashtunsitan is in no way representative of the history or culture of my people.

Levanye you said:
Secondly, no one wants to lose the north and the west. The territorial integrity of Afghanistan is a personal matter to all Pashtuns. And that is also party what the Durrand Line issue is all about.

Levanaye, LOL you cannot on the one hand seek to uphold “Afghanistan’s territorial” integrity but on the other seek to dismantle Pakistan territorial integrity! You can’t see the irony?

This hypocritical stance of yours is just not just amusing but it only breaks the moral of your argument of partition of Pakistan and creation of Pashtunistan. It only weakens your own argument for Pashtunistan!

The territorial integrity of “Afghanistan” may be a "personal matter for all Pashtuns," but the territorial identity of my land Khurasan or whatever you wish to call it, is more than a “personal matter” for Tajiks.

Kadir,

I see a lot of our Shia--Qazilbash on internet having a bashing anti-Pashton campaign...if I’m not mistaken you are also a Shia? My friend I don't know why hatred blinds people to see the big picture... I don’t know why you want us Afghans to continue status quote...being land lock--thus always poor and at mercy of their neighbors to gain access to international tread. I fully support merger of Balochistan and NWFP with Afghanistan…if not in single country but a confederation…off course I hate the pashtonization politics but at same time I have faith in my culture and language…no power can destroy my culture…if Arabs with Qorhan in one hand and Sword in others couldn’t…while they absorbed the Syrians, Palestinian, Lebanese and others into Arab culture…how could Pashtons could do? In fact thanks to our culture…al the elite Pashtons were Persianized…most of them could not even speak Pashto.
The status quo has brought us nothing but miseries….Pakistan was created based on religion and it needs terrorism for her survival…it will be naïve for us to think Pakistan will abandon exporting terrorism once Kabul recognized Durand line.
We need liberation from Arab culture-- fanatic and religious lots in order for a reunion of all Iranic people…reestablishment of old Persian empire…with respect and promotion of all iranic languages.

[ayub]

^ lol, that's pure fantasy.

Now to reality, first pakhtuns will never now easily take over Kabul and cut supply routes. This is not the late 90's. Secondly talibans are Pakis .. Who said they will help pakhtuns in their mission.

How are the Pakhtuns gonna make trade pact with baloch? Is baloch an independent country? Is Pakis gonna allow this to happen.

Why would hazara turn against 'Tajik' etc makes no sense at all.

You make everything sound so simple.

And Iran didn't treat 'Tajiks' badly. That's just a myth.

[Emal_khan]

ayub

Why would hazara turn against 'Tajik' etc makes no sense at all.

Have you ever heard about the Afshar genocide commited by Masodovsky?
Do you think the hazara will forgive you?
listen to the speech of mazari
YouTube - Afghanistan Documentary [ part 3 of 5 ]

listen to speech of masodovsky.
YouTube - Khanenin Watan: Ahmad Shah Massoud, Mohseni, Akbari, Anwari wa Syaf

And Iran didn't treat 'Tajiks' badly. That's just a myth.

the situation of afghan refugees in iran.
YouTube - Iran and Afghan مهمان نوازی ایران از همزبانان افغانی
Kabul Alarmed By Iran's Executions Of Afghan Prisoners



April 15, 2010
By RFE/RL
In Koshan, along western Afghanistan's border with Iran, Arbab Zarif has just buried his brother.

"Look how they hurt us," he says. "Look what is happening to us."

Zarif's brother was executed in Iran for allegedly trafficking drugs. He says he had no defense lawyer and that Iranian authorities then added insult to tragedy.

"[The Iranians] asked for [$100] to get the body back," he tells RFE/RL's Radio Free Afghanistan. "So I borrowed [$100] and we gave it to get my brother's body back."

In Ghorian, a different district of Afghanistan's Herat Province abutting Iran, Mohammad Naseem Rahmani tells a similar story.

Rahmani says his brother Abdulqaium was buried this week in Ghorian after Iran executed him and returned his body to the family.

He says Abdulqaium was convicted of drug trafficking and that he wasn't able to visit his brother in prison because he lacks documents.

"Yes, my brother was 33; his name was Abdulqaium; he had four children," Rahmani says. "After he was arrested, there was no one to help him and finally they gave him a death sentence."

Afghan officials say three Afghan prisoners alleged to have been involved in drug smuggling have been executed in Iran in recent weeks.

But worry and anger has been growing in Afghanistan over allegations that Iran sent the bodies of more than 40 executed Afghan prisoners back to Afghanistan.

Kabul Alarmed By Iran's Executions Of Afghan Prisoners - Radio Free Europe / Radio Liberty © 2010