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The many shades of Pashtuns/Afghans and Pashtun nationalists

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  • The many shades of Pashtuns/Afghans and Pashtun nationalists

    The Pashtun community on this forum reflects an interesting diversity as for as Pashtun nationalist leanings and sentiments are concerned. Various shades of opinion exist in the community and the views vary and approaches are quite widely distributed. Some members don't hide their real sentiments and openly say what should be done. Others are more cautious in expressing their feelings. Some are utterly unconcerned while others seems to be fed up and frustrated. I have categorized members here based on my understanding of members views. This is just for fun and no offence is intended. Apologies in advance if someone feels the comments are radical. The categorization is below.

    Hawks: Included in this category are those members who promote the idea of Loy Afghanistan and believe somehow things including regional opinion and interests can be manipulated to regain what has been lost over the past two centuries and that a comeback can be managed by Pashtuns. They promote a kind of all-encompassing political nationalism that unites Pashtuns and brings non-Pashtuns under its fold in a kind of fraternal feelings pervading all sections and shades of Afghan political and cultural spectrum.

    Herodians: This type of Pashtuns includes members who favour a pacifist, complacent, and apologetic role for Pashtuns in confirmity with prevailing views, images, and narratives of Pashtun people. Herodianism is a term used for that kind of reform-activists/lobyiests who see an intrinsic, incurable flaw/evil in their own kind/culture and a higher virtue/goodness in other cultures and try to emulate what seems to them awesome and sublime in others.

    Bandwaganists: The banwaganist category includes members who are cautiously nationalists. Such members have flexible political positions and may gravitate to any side of the political divide depending on which side the majority opinion swings to. They think maintaining a position of ambiguity may be helpful to them in securing their interests.

    Nationalist Hardcore: They talk about Pashtun unification as the only solution to Pashtuns problems and have unwavering committment to sovreingty for their people even if that means the abandonment of existing structures. They are essentially Pashtun focussed and are against any kind of adventurism to regain the past status and to unrealistically extend the concept of Pashtun/Afghan identity. They are kind of futuristic-looking and realists.

    Romantic Nationalists: They are kind of nostalgic for the past and seem to think that restoration of the old Afghan order may rejuvinate the traditional Pashtun (tribal and rural) values of jolyness, sportsmanship, manly and masculine behaviour, etc. etc. They are sort of uneasy with South Asian values and social behavior. I think Khayal and probably Pir-i-Rokhan (not very sure about Pir saib) fall in this category.

    Resentful Nationalists and Nationalist Troublemakers: These people kind of think themselves to be not part of the mainstream and sort of discriminated against. I will include Nokia, Shadow, and Luffy in this category.

    Passtime Nationalists: I think in this category we can include gulalai and Baygham, etc. Committed liberalist and secularists, these people want these ideals reflected in any nationalist struggle. They seem to be more focused on these ideals instead of Pashtun nationalism.

    Anti-Nationalists and Zealots: Unknown prince, Maiwand, Abubakar, etc. fall into this category. They want things taken 1400 years back when Islamic Khalaft was name of the game. In fact, that romance is keeping them overactive on the forum.

    Spiritualists, Humanists, and Moralists: I don't know whether to put Zayam into this category but there are some members that are surely in this category. Probably, they take every thing for granted and think that people should be nice to each other and things will fall into order by themselves. Probably they think politics and political dialogue is more a wicked game aimed at discard than a practical strategy to have things to be clear and gotton in order.

    Intruders and fortune soldiers: May be there are some who fall into this category.

    May be you suggest recategorization.
    Last edited by Toramana; 11-13-2010, 10:26 PM.

  • #2
    Excellent classification wrora!


    I fall under the "Nationalist Hardcore" category

    Comment


    • #3
      The one's that you defined as "Nationalists Hardcore" are easily the most pragmatic one's and the easiest type of Pashtun Nationalists which a non-Pashtun can negotiate with and prevent a war. Their idealogy perhaps provides the best chance of creating a Pashtunistan from pashtuns area of afg and pak.

      The one's you defined as "Hawks" seeks to reinstate an empire under the guise of a 'nation state' in the 21 century. They are narrow minded idealists. They understand only one language, war and there can be no negotiation or use of logic with them. Their idea of enforcing loy-afghanistan on other non-pashtuns means they pose an existentialist threat to non-pashtuns of afghanistan and they must be fought to the last man in the event of them becoming a majority within pashtun nationalists movement.
      Last edited by Guest; 11-13-2010, 09:03 PM.

      Comment


      • #4
        The "Anti-Nationalist" and "Zealots" are the majority or atleast the loudest and best funded at the moment amongst any Pashtun movements.

        Many Pashtun of differing categories some how have this illusion that they can support the "zealots" for the moment because the zealots may evolve eventually to become their version of pashtun nationalists.

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by Khidr View Post
          The one's that you defined as "Nationalists Hardcore" are easily the most pragmatic one's and the easiest type of Pashtun Nationalists which a non-Pashtun can negotiate with and prevent a war. Their idealogy perhaps provides the best chance of creating a Pashtunistan from pashtuns area of afg and pak.

          The one's you defined as "Hawks" seeks to reinstate an empire under the guise of a 'nation state' in the 21 century. They are narrow minded idealists. They understand only one language, war and there can be no negotiation or use of logic with them. Their idea of enforcing loy-afghanistan on other non-pashtuns means they pose an existentialist threat to non-pashtuns of afghanistan and they must be fought to the last man in the event of them becoming a majority within pashtun nationalists movement.

          I have suspected this for a while...now i see it with my own eyes how Pakis and Tajerks have join hands...at the end you both are two face of same coin....make no mistake... from Amu to Abaseen is domain of Pashtons...if you think we will allow Amu-Jumpers--central Asian refugees to occupied and claim our land then your mistaken.

          PS: where are those Jivee Jivee Pakistan type? Those royal to king them king himself? Balaa ballaa Hareepaaaaaaaaaaaaa.
          ای وخته بېرته راشه يو افغان وزېږوه
          نو بيا يو احمد خان يا ميروس خان وزېږوه

          چې ننګ په وطن وکړئ داسي ځوان وزېږوه
          نويا خو خوشحال خان يا بادشا خان وزېږوه

          سپن اوشن بيرغ د ازادۍ کړي زمونږ پورته
          بيا داسې يو بادشا لکه امان وزيږوه

          چې جوړه کړي انګريز ته بيا غزا د ارنوۍ
          يو داسې لوی غازي ميرزمان خان وزيږوه

          سرو مال قربان کړي له وطن او له ناموسه
          په مينه د وطن کي افغانان وزيږوه

          ټپې د ازادۍ کړه بورا ته په خيالونو
          اوس راشه په شعرنو کي طوفان وزيږو

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by Azmal View Post
            I have suspected this for a while...now i see it with my own eyes how Pakis and Tajerks have join hands...at the end you both are two face of same coin....make no mistake... from Amu to Abaseen is domain of Pashtons...if you think we will allow Amu-Jumpers--central Asian refugees to occupied and claim our land then your mistaken.

            PS: where are those Jivee Jivee Pakistan type? Those royal to king them king himself? Balaa ballaa Hareepaaaaaaaaaaaaa.
            Here we go, this idiot is an excellent example of a delusional fascist “Hawk” category which I was talking about.


            I have not joined hands with anyone or seek to impose my identity on any people or to oppress any Pashtun who wants to live freely and amongst his own people. But make no mistake, when it comes to defending my people/land/history against your category people and becoming a "loy-afghanistan", I will get a gun from Shaitan itself and use it to fight you from cave to cave, valley to valley, street to street.


            Make no mistake, we will break your jaw, we will break neck, we will break your delusional dreams.


            I will fight you until the very last breath of mine! I will fight you until the very last bone of mine. The only way you can enforce your Loy-Afghanistan is to send every one of us to a mass-grave, and even then the land itself will resist you!


            We have seen Alexander, We have seen Arabs, we have seen Genghis Khan, we have seen your brief 20 year old empire, they all came and went.

            We are the one constant in our lands history. Your Loy-Afghanistan exists only in your delusional head.
            Last edited by Guest; 11-13-2010, 09:33 PM.

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by Khidr View Post
              The one's that you defined as "Nationalists Hardcore" are easily the most pragmatic one's and the easiest type of Pashtun Nationalists which a non-Pashtun can negotiate with and prevent a war. Their idealogy perhaps provides the best chance of creating a Pashtunistan from pashtuns area of afg and pak.

              The one's you defined as "Hawks" seeks to reinstate an empire under the guise of a 'nation state' in the 21 century. They are narrow minded idealists. They understand only one language, war and there can be no negotiation or use of logic with them. Their idea of enforcing loy-afghanistan on other non-pashtuns means they pose an existentialist threat to non-pashtuns of afghanistan and they must be fought to the last man in the event of them becoming a majority within pashtun nationalists movement.
              Actually, resistance is the characteristic that core nationalities in decadent/disintegrating regions/states display to change. How could you think Russian core in Russian Federation (e.g., Chechens) or Persian core (e.g. in case of Baluchis) in Iran react to movements aimed at cessation? Han Chinese in China and Sunni Arabs in Iraq, etc. are other examples.

              Nevertheless, I sincerely believe political dialogue and consensus aimed at attaining a stable and just regional order that represents the aspirations of all people and groups can save us all and bring us closer rather than push us apart.

              Nice meeting you and hope to discuss with you the dominent view in your community with regard to regional issues.
              Last edited by Toramana; 11-13-2010, 09:49 PM.

              Comment


              • #8
                Awesomeness Toramana!!!This has become one of my favorite posts on PF.
                Lol@ Passtime Nationalist. I disagree with that completely.
                "O Pakhtuns!, Your house has fallen into ruin, let us rebuild it".
                "I want to see my people educated and enlightened. A people with a vision and a strong sense of justice, who can carve out a future for themselves in harmony with nature".

                Comment


                • #9
                  Azmal, you have blamed me twice to be a Paki conspirator in face of the fact that if Pakis got hold of me, they will roast me alive. I in no way am coming in the way of any reproachment or am pushing for any agenda. I was just classifying members here based on their views.

                  You will find me the last person with a Paki agenda.
                  Last edited by Toramana; 11-13-2010, 09:53 PM.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by gulalai View Post
                    Awesomeness Toramana!!!This has become one of my favorite posts on PF.
                    Lol@ Passtime Nationalist. I disagree with that completely.
                    Sorry, gulalai...that was aimed at infusing some humour into all this...

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Khidr View Post
                      Here we go, this idiot is an excellent example of a delusional fascist “Hawk” category which I was talking about.


                      ]I have not joined hands with anyone or seek to impose my identity on any people or to oppress any Pashtun who wants to live freely and amongst his own people.[/B] But make no mistake, when it comes to defending my people/land/history against your category people and becoming a "loy-afghanistan", I will get a gun from Shaitan itself and use it to fight you from cave to cave, valley to valley, street to street.


                      Make no mistake, we will break your jaw, we will break neck, we will break your delusional dreams.

                      Where is all this hatred coming from, Khidr?

                      When we talk about Loy Afghanistan, we only talk about Afghanistan reclaiming the land that had been snatched away from it by the British colonizers. Why is it about this that makes you want to fight us? After all, you did live in Loy Afghanistan for more than a hundred years, did you not?

                      At the same time, we Pashtuns would very much like to live in a single state with each other, just as we did from 1747 until 1893. Do remember that Iran recognized Herat as Afghanistan on their own accord and the rulers of Turkistan signed away everything south of the Oxus to the Afghans whereas in regards to the Durrand Line, Afghans on both sides never fully accepted it. Why do you think the fulfillment of Afghan national aspirations would be to your detriment?

                      Originally posted by Khidr View Post
                      I have not joined hands with anyone or seek to impose my identity on any people or to oppress any Pashtun who wants to live freely and amongst his own people.
                      You just defined Loy Afghanistan right there.
                      "If a nation expects to be ignorant and free, in a state of civilization, it expects what never was and never will be".

                      "Knowledge will forever govern ignorance; and a people who mean to be their own governors must arm themselves with the power which knowledge gives".

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Khidr View Post
                        We have seen Alexander, We have seen Arabs, we have seen Genghis Khan, we have seen your brief 20 year old empire, they all came and went.
                        Only you have seen Alexander, Arabs and Genghis Khan? Pashtuns have seen almost every empire in the world brother. We have defeated the British and many other 'world powers'. I understand you want to bolster your confidence in your ethnic group by mentioning all those names but you should acknowledge the contributions of Pashtuns. Hell, the 4th spoken language in space is Pashto.

                        We are the one constant in our lands history. Your Loy-Afghanistan exists only in your delusional head.
                        Only you? Elaborate. What are Pashtuns? No matter what happens, a Pashtun of Kandahar is no different than a Pashtun of Swat or Peshawar. In fact, If I am not mistaking, Yusufzais[which is one of the most dominant tribes of Pashtunkhwa]originally immigrated from Kabul and Kandahar.

                        Superiority complex has negative political implications, Your ethnic group needs to acknowledge our ethnic dominance. There is a reason why nearly ever president of the USA was white, and how nearly every president and ruler of Afghanistan[the country you live in] was a Pashtun and still is a Pashtun. Work on reconciling your differences, refrain from Tajik chauvinism, you are using it to describe the symmetrical attitude that your ethnic group is superior to Pashtuns.
                        Even Adobe Photoshop can't change me.

                        A line[Durrand line] of hatred that raised a wall between the two brothers -Hamid Karzai

                        For generations, the Hindus of India prayed for deliverance from "the venom of the cobra, the teeth of the tiger and the vengeance of the Afghan."


                        The men of Kábul and Khilj also went home; and whenever they were questioned about the Musulmáns of the Kohistán (the mountains), and how matters stood there, they said, "Don't call it Kohistán, but Afghánistán; for there is nothing there but Afgháns and disturbances." Thus it is clear that for this reason the people of the country call their home in their own language Afghánistán, and themselves Afgháns. The people of India call them Patán; but the reason for this is not known. But it occurs to me, that when, under the rule of Muhammadan sovereigns, Musulmáns first came to the city of Patná, and dwelt there, the people of India (for that reason) called them Patáns—but God knows!

                        -Ferishta, 1560–1620

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Levanaye Zalmaye View Post
                          Where is all this hatred coming from, Khidr?

                          When we talk about Loy Afghanistan, we only talk about Afghanistan reclaiming the land that had been snatched away from it by the British colonizers. Why is it about this that makes you want to fight us? After all, you did live in Loy Afghanistan for more than a hundred years, did you not?

                          At the same time, we Pashtuns would very much like to live in a single state with each other, just as we did from 1747 until 1893. Do remember that Iran recognized Herat as Afghanistan on their own accord and the rulers of Turkistan signed away everything south of the Oxus to the Afghans whereas in regards to the Durrand Line, Afghans on both sides never fully accepted it. Why do you think the fulfillment of Afghan national aspirations would be to your detriment?



                          You just defined Loy Afghanistan right there.
                          Levanaye Zalmaye, what is wrong with you?[sarcasm] Are you out your mind? How dare you bring forward such a pathetic agenda? We Tajiks should never allow these Pashtuns to unify. Take a look at our ethnic make up once the Pashtuns of Pashtunkhwa join Afghanistan. Go for it Levanaye Zalmaye, tell us what the ethnic make up will be. It will be 50-60 million Pashtuns, and about 10-15million minority ethnic groups. Do you now realize why minorities are so concerned with us unifying?
                          Even Adobe Photoshop can't change me.

                          A line[Durrand line] of hatred that raised a wall between the two brothers -Hamid Karzai

                          For generations, the Hindus of India prayed for deliverance from "the venom of the cobra, the teeth of the tiger and the vengeance of the Afghan."


                          The men of Kábul and Khilj also went home; and whenever they were questioned about the Musulmáns of the Kohistán (the mountains), and how matters stood there, they said, "Don't call it Kohistán, but Afghánistán; for there is nothing there but Afgháns and disturbances." Thus it is clear that for this reason the people of the country call their home in their own language Afghánistán, and themselves Afgháns. The people of India call them Patán; but the reason for this is not known. But it occurs to me, that when, under the rule of Muhammadan sovereigns, Musulmáns first came to the city of Patná, and dwelt there, the people of India (for that reason) called them Patáns—but God knows!

                          -Ferishta, 1560–1620

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            I will address this issue thoroughly after my last exam tomorrow. Admin and Levanaye.

                            The jest of what I say is this:

                            Pashtuns of Afghanistan have every right to live freely with their Pashtuns from today’s Pakistan. Pashtun areas of Afghanistan and Pashtun areas of Pakistan can form Pashtunistan or Pashtunkhwa or Loy-Afghanistan, whatever.


                            HOWEVER, we, the non-Pashtuns of present day Afghanistan DO NOT wish to and will fight against ever being incorporated into a “Loy-Afghanistan.”


                            Tajik not wanting to be apart of Loy-Afghanistan is as as chauvinistic as Pashtuns not wanting to be apart of Pakistan. In other words I and other non-Pashtun want to be apart of Loy-Afghanistan just as much as Admin Khan and Toramana want’s to be apart of Pakistan.

                            It's quite simple, Pashtuns go there way and Tajiks and others we go our way. You live in your Pashtunistan and we live in our Khurasan. Simple, everybody wins! I will address this thoroughly after my last exam tomorrow, inshallah.
                            Last edited by Guest; 11-13-2010, 10:15 PM.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Khidr,
                              take your time brother. We are not 'enemies', we are just trying to understand one another in better terms. This discussion is all about learning, not proving one another wrong. I wish you good luck on your exam, and I hope I can learn from you.
                              Even Adobe Photoshop can't change me.

                              A line[Durrand line] of hatred that raised a wall between the two brothers -Hamid Karzai

                              For generations, the Hindus of India prayed for deliverance from "the venom of the cobra, the teeth of the tiger and the vengeance of the Afghan."


                              The men of Kábul and Khilj also went home; and whenever they were questioned about the Musulmáns of the Kohistán (the mountains), and how matters stood there, they said, "Don't call it Kohistán, but Afghánistán; for there is nothing there but Afgháns and disturbances." Thus it is clear that for this reason the people of the country call their home in their own language Afghánistán, and themselves Afgháns. The people of India call them Patán; but the reason for this is not known. But it occurs to me, that when, under the rule of Muhammadan sovereigns, Musulmáns first came to the city of Patná, and dwelt there, the people of India (for that reason) called them Patáns—but God knows!

                              -Ferishta, 1560–1620

                              Comment

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