Are Indians foes or friends?

[Zahed]

I know there are classes in Dari there but as far as I know, Pukhto is taught on larger scale in South because my own in-laws (Dari speakers) whenever preparing for exams in universities learn in Pukhto, not Dari. I know one of the reasons mentioned for lack of Pukhto lessons is lack of materials as in materials for education in Dari comes from Iran; Indeed also to Southern Afghanistan.

thank u! that's exactly the reason Pashto fails to grow its importance, cuz of lack of Pashto education materials, not cuz of Tajeks! Pashtuns themselves agreed when Iran offered to provide education materials 'n its very obvious that 'll be in Dari not Pashto.

[Levanaye Zalmaye]

States are neither friends nor foes. They have interests (national interests) and policies (foreign policies). They act on them. They are rational actors who plan out their long-term strategies which, in turn, are based on their cost-benefit analysis. Even the most ideological states in the world do not compromise on their foreign policy objectives.

[Shayesta]

that Tsunami thing was sarcasm but you couldn't understand it.

No way, really? And I kept thinking my sense of humor is bad. :/

Pashtuns are responsible for all the bad things that have happened to them recently-

Recent situation is a reflection of our past, that's called 'it's all coming back to you'. You could blame foreigners for roaming around in our soil in first place, but same credit goes to Pakistan as well who support the root of their roaming round, since by some in here Pakistanis are considered (possibly) less devil than Tajiks, Uzbeks, etcetera.

and they are also responsible for all the bad things that happened to others especially TAJAKS

No, we just shouldn't have forced ourselves on North since they never did the same to South; Period!

since Afghanistan was established in 1763.

Since 1747 you mean?

Tajaks and other minorities are not responsible AT ALL for their "miserable condition" all these centuries

They are regarding personalities like Ahmad Shah Massoud, Rabbani, etcetera. Nonetheless, even they didn't oppress Pukhtoons but rather their own community and Hazaras in some cases. Tajiks, Hazaras and many others became active in politics mainly since Russian war, so I don't understand how you can blame Tajiks for whatever political games before that? Though you could argue about Hazaras who were said to be working for the British, nonetheless it's beyond ridiculous to start discriminating all Hazaras in entire Afghanistan and keeping them as slaves for over a century.

Tajaks and other minorities are not responsible AT ALL for what has happened to Pashtuns.

Literally all you have to do is to go back, even before Taliban era, and show me how Tajiks were responsible for whatever happening to Pukhtoons? I have stated Hazaras already, but what about Tajiks since there is (apparently) something you know but I don't?

Now can you see the twistiness of your argument?

Nopes, but I can in yours. Which doesn't really change directions or opinions.

Demonizing the Pashtuns, especially, when they are engaged in standing and defending the whole of Afghanistan is a very questionable thing to do.

If we could Pukhtoons in face of Taliban who 'defend their nation', then we also got Pukhtoons like Karzai, Ghani, Khalilzad, Wardak, and many others who think the other way round. Either way and either side, for one Pukhtoon first group is a sold-out, for another one the second group.

[KhalsaWarrior]

Let the Afghans-the Pashtuns, the Hazaras, the Tajiks, the Uzbeks- decide if they want to be friends with India or not. India will have its moment of truth when the ISAF leaves in a couple of years (Obama did say 2011, but nobody, not even they themselves believe that deadline). If a sizeable majority of Pashtuns aren't won over by that time, Indians would be unwanted guests in the country. And so be it.

[Admin Khan]

India has never conquered any foreign nation in her 5000 year history. Nonetheless your concern is noted.

My brother, I never mentioned anything about India conquering another nation. I'm not quite sure what's the reason behind this circular reasoning, but I will reiterate myself for the sake of it being a sunny day outside. And I repeat, I never said India will conquer us. I never said India is our enemy, I never said we should hate Indians. I never said why does India support Tajiks. None of that.

Admin lala, you are creating a strawman here and proceeding to knock it down. India is not supporting any <insert an ethnic group here> against <insert any other ethnic group here>.

I never said it currently is, hypothetically speaking, my concern was with this post of yours,

But if Pashtun fascists become slaves of Punjabi/Mohajir imperialists than we will support Tajik fascists for our own interests.

And all I said was, you are going to be part of the problem if you begin supporting Tajiks. You clearly said you are willing to support Tajiks for your own interests. By you supporting Tajiks, Pakistan supporting Pashtuns, guess what is going to happen? Afghanistan will officially enter the stone age. Let Pashtuns and Tajiks reconcile, ALL Tajiks are not our enemies, ALL Punjabis are not our enemies. In fact, just like how there are Tajiks,Punjabis who work against us, we also have Pashtuns who work against us as well.

She *is* building institutions. She is training Afghan lawyers, doctors, army,election officials, students from all ethnic groups. When not possible in Afghanistan, Afghans are invited to India for their training

And every single sensible Afghan appreciates that. India has spent over a billion dollars in Afghanistan, and I am confident many villagers appreciate that. Since you are working for the betterment of their lives, why wouldn't they be happy?

It's just that her success has been limited in South because of interference from Pakistan/US. Some members (falsely) see that as a support to Tajiks.

I understand what you mean. India did support N.A I believe, so members think its continuing its support. N.A, I heard is widely viewed as anti-Pashtun throughout Afghanistan. So there you go.

I am going to ignore that provocative statement

There is nothing provocative about that. I never said I wish to see that happen, I just said it might and probably will happen. I hate to see civilians die, but if India supports Tajiks against Pashtuns, Pakistan's spy agency might brainwash innocent Pashtuns to carry out suicide attacks in your India as well. They will say "look, India supports Tajiks and wishes to see you fail, show them who the man is".

obviously, I never wish to see that happen. Don't confuse my stance with examples, I have yet to post my official stance. And Drona, I am very well aware that aid comes with interest, India supports Afghanistan because it has an interest in Afghanistan. If not, there are many Indian states that are extremely poor and are getting a cold-shoulder. But again, let's not even get into that, you are building schools and institutions, Afghans must appreciate that. But we all know aid doesn't come for free.

I personally have some very good Indian friends and they all tell me they love Afghans. But even if they were to say they hated Afghans, they do not speak for a nation of a billion. Similarly, If an Indian troll joins and decided to bash Pashtuns, that doesn't mean all Indians hate Pashtuns. We should be more open minded.

[Dervaish]

Why you guys are thinking of fighting?
Is there not enough fighting, killing and destruction going on.
You want more? You want to see the rest of it destroyed?
You want more killing?
Have you lost your senses for peace?

[Dervaish]

Be your own friend first. This character is missing in us. We want America to be our friend, we want India to be our friend, we wanted Russia to be our friend. Don't you see the destruction these friends have brought on Afghanistan? You have to trust yourself and stand up to these leaders of yours and get rid of them. Become honest leaders yourself. That is what I wish our young generation should do.

Don't look for friends from outside.

[Toramana]

Be your own friend first. This character is missing in us. We want America to be our friend, we want India to be our friend, we wanted Russia to be our friend. Don't you see the destruction these friends have brought on Afghanistan? You have to trust yourself and stand up to these leaders of yours and get rid of them. Become honest leaders yourself. That is what I wish our young generation should do.

Don't look for friends from outside.

Mr Darvesh, who told you we want to fight? I am not ready to fight for the next 1000 years let alone one day.

I wonder whether you have not properly grasped the purpose of this thread or are you one of those rare supra-humanists/supra-moralists, who would view and label the slightest reference to some contemporary issue as attempt to provoke discard. Far from that.

[drona]

I never said it currently is, hypothetically speaking, my concern was with this post of yours,

But if Pashtun fascists become slaves of Punjabi/Mohajir imperialists than we will support Tajik fascists for our own interests

And all I said was, you are going to be part of the problem if you begin supporting Tajiks. You clearly said you are willing to support Tajiks for your own interests.

Admin lala, if you read my post carefully you will notice that I was also speaking in hypothetical terms. Let's deconstruct my post. I said:

IF : Which means that I was not speaking of as situation stands today but of a probable scenario however unlikely it might be.

PASHTUN FASCISTS BECOME SLAVES OF PANJABI IMPERIALISTS : Are Pashtun fascists even a significant minority ? I don't think so. One notices chauvinism but not fascism amongst some members here. I hope that is also the case with most normal Pashtuns. Even if Taliban captures Kabul it wouldn't be our concern as it is your country and what happens there is none of our concern. We will feel sorry for numerous Tajiks/Hazaras/Uzbeks as well as Pashtuns as all of them will be forced to live in stone-age, but even that is not a strong enough reason to interfere in your country.

However if these fascists [Taliban leaders] come under the thumb of Pakistan Army[Panjabi imperialists], then whether we like it or not, India will be compelled to interfere as such a combination will directly threaten our country. I am sure I don't need to repeat how Taliban has been used by PA to damage India directly without any provocation from our side [towards Pashtun people] since 1948.

So under such a hypothetical scenario :
WE WILL SUPPORT TAJIK FASCISTS FOR OUR OWN INTERESTS.

The interests of course is the blood and safety of my fellow Indians.

In your articulate posts in this thread you have raised many hypothetical scenarios. Some don't even have any historical precedents viz a viz India. Nonetheless I think these concerns are valid as they rise out of love for your people. Kindly, allow me to also think about such ugly hypothetical scenarios, which are based totally on historical precedent.

By you supporting Tajiks, Pakistan supporting Pashtuns, guess what is going to happen? Afghanistan will officially enter the stone age. Let Pashtuns and Tajiks reconcile, ALL Tajiks are not our enemies, ALL Punjabis are not our enemies. In fact, just like how there are Tajiks,Punjabis who work against us, we also have Pashtuns who work against us as well.

This is what I have been emphasizing again and again throughout this thread. This is what India should be discreetly encouraging leaders from all ethnic groups to do. I am sure you also recognize the fact that PA controls Pakistan's policy in Afghanistan. It is in it's interest that :
1. Pashtuns and Tajiks are perpetually at war with each other. Or,
2. A puppet fundamentalist regime controls Kabul, that is totally under the control of GHQ, Rawalpindi.
Last thing that PA wants is a progressive, liberal leadership emerging in Afghanistan which treats *all* ethnic groups fairly and honorably. A successful Afghanistan will serve as a catalyst to undo the Durand Line. However a successful Afghanistan is only possible if both groups leave their maximalist positions and arrive at a mutually honorable compromise.

India did support N.A I believe, so members think its continuing its support. N.A, I heard is widely viewed as anti-Pashtun throughout Afghanistan.

India didn't start that war. She was a late participant and supported the side which was fighting Pakistani proxies. Let's all hope that once US is evicted peace prevails and Civil War is avoided.

obviously, I never wish to see that happen. Don't confuse my stance with examples, I have yet to post my official stance. And Drona, I am very well aware that aid comes with interest, India supports Afghanistan because it has an interest in Afghanistan. If not, there are many Indian states that are extremely poor and are getting a cold-shoulder. But again, let's not even get into that, you are building schools and institutions, Afghans must appreciate that. But we all know aid doesn't come for free.

I have never claimed that Indian Aid is for charitable reasons. More than a billion dollars were happily given by a nation of hungry millions because we genuinely believe that a progressive, united Afghanistan is in India's interest in the long term.

There is nothing provocative about that. I never said I wish to see that happen, I just said it might and probably will happen. I hate to see civilians die, but if India supports Tajiks against Pashtuns, Pakistan's spy agency might brainwash innocent Pashtuns to carry out suicide attacks in your India as well. They will say "look, India supports Tajiks and wishes to see you fail, show them who the man is".

Presently we are supporting all Afghans [except the Pakistani proxies]. I think I have explained in detail under which hypothetical scenario India will be forced support one group against another. Because irrespective of what we do under that scenario, if a puppet fundamentalist regime comes to power in Kabul, it will exploit innocent Pashtuns through Ghazwa-E-Hind propaganda and give them up to Pak Army/ISI to be used against India.

I personally have some very good Indian friends and they all tell me they love Afghans. But even if they were to say they hated Afghans, they do not speak for a nation of a billion. Similarly, If an Indian troll joins and decided to bash Pashtuns, that doesn't mean all Indians hate Pashtuns. We should be more open minded.

Amen !!

[drona]

When I see more development projects in the south I will make up my mind. I am pro Indian though.

When Indian engineers/doctors are not killed, then I am sure India will be more than happy to do even more projects in the south.