Qusetions from bls_1919v2 wror

[shehram]

Malgariya, I am increasingly coming to the conclusion that you are the most stupid person here. I'll explain why later.

Why Nadir sha ? He didnt say you stupid see in his letter how he answer to you .

I think You are well educated person .

Anyway Nice Topic well done Luffy
I cannot write here but interesting in (like these Topics )

[shehram]

lol shadow awal tre da tapoos ookrra che da koom zai dolar hahahaha
pa 50000 $ kho Ghazala Javed kharsa shawe da cherta de haghe khabara kho na kaweee

Aw SHAH AZIZ KHANA interrupt kho de krral awal TOPIC oogoora che sa deee?

[Talal]

Im curious BLS could you tell me about the organizations working for independent pashtunistan or the meger with Afghanistan (political / Student groups and all that)...I mean that is the focal point of all the arguments here..can we have some stats on this, and by that i mean something that is verifiable...This isnt supposed to be an offensive question just to kinda gauge the state of this movement.

[BLS_1919v2.0]

I mistakenly used the word of hazara for hazaraywals in Khyberpakhtunkhwa. I wanted to say that a minority in KP, hazarewals had put us in a fix when they demanded a separate province for themselves...hazarewals are some what tied to us and yet they dont trust us...compare to them, Chitralis and seraikiwans are not related to us at all, chances are high that they may follow foot steps of hazarewals..at more crucial moments these minorities will raise their voices with more intensity.
I want to say that same situation can happen in afghanistan where ethnic tensions are far more intense than in pakistan. As you said that ethnic composition is not homogenious in north-westren afghanistan, but atleast there is a magority in each province and all magority provinces of each community are adjacent to each other (with exception of some provinces like herat, kunduz, bulkh)..at the moment all minorities are for present afghanistan..but when case of loy afghanistan will arise, their opinion about staying in afghanistan will most probably change...they are staying in afghanistan because they have total dominance over weak pashtun magority... they can dominate afghanistan with 40% pashtuns but they cant dominate over fresh supply of 35 million pashtuns from pakistan..this is an absolute fact..
Unlike peaceful minorities in KP, Tajiks, uzbeks and hazaras are of violent nature and have martial tendencies like pashtuns...so one can expect the worse in northren afghanistan...despite how much number of pashtuns are in north, they are weak and are at the mercy of northren races....we will have three options, 1-watch silently their atrocities 2-subdue them and large population relocation 3- give them independence.
Or may be we get out of control and start ethnic cleansing of northren alliance.

First of all hazara division is a different story. Over there Pashtuns themselves make 50-60 % of the population, more if we count the hindko- speaking Pashtuns like tanolis, tareens, swatis, etc. The issue with hazara had little to do with ethnicity and more to do with politics. The PML and the likes gohar Ayub wanted to take their nearly dying political party and give it a platform, so it started with that. Also, remember that with so-called demands comes plausibility. Can they realistically get this province?

As I told you, we will have to neutralize the situation as it is not in our benefit to see a civil war there. The partitioning of the north is not one civil war but multiple civil wars, and that is not only dragging the Pashtuns into decade or so of conflict but is basically invited the entire region in to your backyard. In those instances you will have to give the other ethnic groups a stake in the government. It is only logical...we can't live in a utopia. Their dominance of Pashtuns today is due to the fact that our areas are in a warzone, every Pashtun majority region is where the conflict is at its height so naturally where there is peace there is more stability and hence more development. Tell me would you rather visit the northern areas where there is peace or go down south to nimruz or Helmand? Also you are taking this scenario in mind under the consideration that these northern ethnic groups are all on the same political platform. This isn't true. During the civil war they killed each other as much as they killed Pashtuns. In fact Massoud's militias (I believe) did a number on the hazaras and killed many. The only reason they made an entire block was due to political rivalry, it doesn't necessarily mean that they are anti-Pashtun or anti-Afghanistan. They weren 't always at each other's throats...prior to the soviet invasion they all lived side by side. Look even in Afghanistan it was a lot more common to inter marry. In pashtunkhwa even in peace, we don't inter marry with the other population. So compare the cohesiveness there (prior to the war) and compare it with Pashtunkhwa and Afghanistan. There is a stark difference between the relations of the ethnic groups in Afghanistan and the relations of those in Pakistan.

[BLS_1919v2.0]

Also luffy you were talking about the Pashtuns desire to attack like the Baloch. Well Khaana these are two different forms of nationalism. Pashtun nationalism is based on the situation in Afghanistan. The taliban phenomena is something else and the fact that it has backed fired on Pakistan's policy makers is where the final goal of Pashtun unity comes in. Obviously a lot of us look at Pakistan as a propped up state, that the west is willing to fork over cash to keep it afloat....however if things continue as they are going then Pashtuns will end up unifying and that is more of a natural thing. I mean this artificial federation is going on now, propped and paid for by US, but once they pull the plug can you tell me of one defining factor that keeps us within Pakistan? In situations like these, Pashtuns on both sides will naturally only have their own to unify with. Also another reason why Pashtuns who didn't go up in arms in nationalism is that they have their key nationalist parties present and if they do consider an alternative route then they need alternative allies and alternative means. In certain areas, Pashtuns are either stuck between pak army, or their intel agencies. In such cases, do you have much of a choice? Everything has to be catered to the realities around them. For us it is more of a waiting game and also one where we basically have to re group.

Talal that is a good question, but the movement of pashtunistan is not neccessarily defined. It depends on the stability of Afghanistan. If it is stable there is more leverage, if it isn't then there is little. There are already 2 or 3 nationalist parties who have a range of demands (which can shift depending on the situation). They are at least autonomy within Pakistan and at most ready to go towards the next step. You have to actually sit down with these people or read their material/opinions in pashto to get an idea.

[Feroza_Banu]

^just to emphasize on the inter marriage:

The two ethnic groups that mostly inter-marry are the pashtoons and what u call as "tajiks:" the farsizubaan people that are inhabitant of Afghanistan for thousands of years. they are the local people that have lived there for generations and generations. They are Sunni by madhab and they are very fond of pashtoons, (for example the real Kabuli people)

The real tajiks and turkaic people that immigrated to Afghanistan recently, by recently i mean 100 years or so are very unlikely to marry pashtoons. And the pashtoons are very less likely to marry those tajiks.

the funny thing is that everyone refers to farsi/dari speaking people of AFghanistan as tajiks... that is NOT true... Tajiki, hazaras, uzbaks are immigrants as apposed to local Farsibaans... i hope this is clear.

The marriage between Hazara and Pashtoon is still considered a taboo. it is very very unlikely to see marriages between these two ethnic groups because hazaras are very looked down upon (sad but true).... and marrying a hazara (if ever happens) results in disowning if not worse.

Pashtoon and Uzbaks are also very unlikely to inter-marry. i don't know why, may be its their language or their custom differences... but nonetheless very unlikely

Pashtoons are also unlikely to marry shias=which mostly are saeeds and hazaras as well... and there are no shia pashtoons in AFghanistan...

Bottom line.. the only ethnic groups that inter-marry in Afghanistan are the real inhabitants of afghanistan... Farsibaans and Pashtoons... those farsibaans (NOT tajiks) but rather those who have lived there for thousands of years...

I think Nick can shed more light on this...

[Talal]

@ BLS you dodged that one very skillfully bro..but here is what i inferred from your statement

The primary focus of these organizations is to achieve provincial autonomy while "in" Pakistan and that was the objective all along..and we already see that happening with the renaming of the province and FATA being very close becoming either an own province or part of KP, media getting more vocal, people of these areas wanting to partake in governance, development and education..and since we are moving towards more and more provincial autonomy things will become more stable in Pakistan too as this will really subside the political tensions between the provinces

so what case then is there for merger of Pakhtunkhwa with Afghanistan ?

[BLS_1919v2.0]

@ BLS you dodged that one very skillfully bro..but here is what i inferred from your statement

The primary focus of these organizations is to achieve provincial autonomy while "in" Pakistan and that was the objective all along..and we already see that happening with the renaming of the province and FATA being very close becoming either an own province or part of KP, media getting more vocal, people of these areas wanting to partake in governance, development and education..and since we are moving towards more and more provincial autonomy things will become more stable in Pakistan too as this will really subside the political tensions between the provinces

so what case then is there for merger of Pakhtunkhwa with Afghanistan ?

I didn't dodge it. What I said was there are a range of demands the parties have which start from basic unified provincial autonomy to a possible merger of the two lands. In fact it was always the pashtunistan movement that took precedence until the 1990s. Although both are within their political strategies and manifestos. The reason for our unity is to fix the historic wrong and to fully regain what we lost about 100 years ago. Talal do you honestly think Pakistan establishment will give up FATA and South Pashutnkhwa into Khyber Pashtunkhwa? For that to happen Pakistan has to reverse 30-40 years of security policy. How much are you willing to bet they will do it?

Provincial autonomy is all well and good, but ultimately the desire is our unification.

[Talal]

I didn't dodge it. What I said was there are a range of demands the parties have which start from basic unified provincial autonomy to a possible merger of the two lands. In fact it was always the pashtunistan movement that took precedence until the 1990s. Although both are within their political strategies and manifestos.

Again that was my question to begin with, which parties have unification with Afghanistan in their manifesto as the focal point of their campaign?

And one more question why was it that pashtunistan movement started to lose steam after the 1960s ?

The reason for our unity is to fix the historic wrong and to fully regain what we lost about 100 years ago.

Again same question, while this is the way your personally feel...exactly how many and what organizations and parties are willing to move forward with this agenda as a focal point of their mandate

Talal do you honestly think Pakistan establishment will give up FATA and South Pashutnkhwa into Khyber Pashtunkhwa? For that to happen Pakistan has to reverse 30-40 years of security policy. How much are you willing to bet they will do it?

I honestly think that in these past years since Musharraf's removal Pakistan is moving towards a lot of reforms, no one could have ever imagined a such freedom of expression for the media and it being so strongly vocal about the national issues as it is today, no one could have either predicted the judiciary to be as strong as it is today, KP renaming..all these things they signal a change for the better in Pakistan..Things are volatile now 'because' we are witnessing a change otherwise who would have let a thug like zardari run the office had it not been the will of all the pakistani institutions to let democracy prevail

Provincial autonomy is all well and good, but ultimately the desire is our unification.

Again mate same question, who desires that ? if the masses do then where is the struggle for it..if there is a struggle then who is leading it ? whats their mandate ?.

you originally said that their mandate was to achieve provincial autonomy and work on their rights and development while in pakistan..but if we look at your point of "ultimately the desire is our unification"..then why seek those reforms ? why not put the afghan agenda on the top ? why not strive for that

When i usually bring up this question on forum the best answer ive gotten is
"we have 3 members from swat, 2 from peshawar and one from charsadda (pun intended) that hate pakistan"

[muhsina]

@ Talal

How do you expect the political parties to announce their ultimate goal [establishment of Pakhtunistan and its ultimate merger with its parent land Afghanistan] in their manifesto when the manifesto is a pre requisite by the Election commission of Pakistan? Even a below 50 IQ person understands that it is considered anti-state to announce the rebellious ideas publically or in writing in any state with some form of a constitution. Pakistan is an army owned autocratic state not a republic; hence it is beyond common sense for any revolutionary to announce such ideas in writing.

As far as struggle is concerned, anybody who knows the abc of revolutionary politics knows this fact that revolutionary struggle is always invisible and within silent majority by a minority and in person or in the form of disseminating literature. It is when the passive resistance from within the silent majority turns into active resistance at the grand finale of the movement that you will "see" the struggle.

Having said that let me assure you that I am dead sure the people wont have to do much to get freedom. The internal system of Pakistan, being a classic case of contradictions within itself, and the fading international rapport of Pakistan coupled with its increasing geostrategic importance will force the international forces to intervene in one form or another to help Pakistan meet its logical end and ofcourse other than North Punjabi elite class no one is bothered about Pakistan due to their loss of interest in such a life which the state of Pakistan offers to its citizen.

This is not being critical but being realist and if you don’t believe it just see the number of suicides in the last couple of months in cases where the parents are killing their own kids as they can’t feed them. One just happened today in Karachi. I wish your optimistic arguments along with those of defence forum's intellectuals' justifications could save the lives of those kids who could not even see the luxury of being in debt for your country and lost their life due to having been born in this failed rogue state. No offence intended it is in the interest of humanity and the 180 million lives that Pakistan should not exist anymore even for purely humanitarian reasons.

Pakistan Zinda bad has practically tuned into Pakistan say zinda bhaag.